Anytime tickets not valid on early trains with senior railcard

[alistairlees]

For what it's worth, NRE doesn't suggest that there are any time restrictions for a senior railcard on routes like that. There aren't many routes like that in the NSE area, although there are a few in London and on the Isle of Wight.

Some NSE flows to Gatwick Airport don't have Off-Peak Day tickets, just Off-Peak tickets (like SVRs)

 

[TUC]

The restriction on the Senior Railcard is to stop commuters obtaining a discount.

That does seem to be based on a rather patronising assumption that 'commuters' only exist in the south east.

 

[Hadders]

That does seem to be based on a rather patronising assumption that 'commuters' only exist in the south east.

Of course commuters exist everywhere but the potential for revenue loss is far higher in the south east than in the rest of the country given that:

1. There are fare more rail commuters in the south east than in other areas of the country
2. Fares in the south east are generally more expensive than in other areas of the country

 

[Killingworth]

A thought provoking topic. As far as I can tell my senior railcard gets me discounts at commuting times to and from Manchester.

Playing around with the booking system of TPE there are so many fares to choose from. Seems I'm best at £20.85 on an Anytime short distance return valid for one month by train operator LNER. LNER don't operate on this route!

On my route there are 3 TOCs and at commuting times I can pay less by booking specific hourly trains, all apparently discounted with the railcard.

 

[alistairlees]

A thought provoking topic. As far as I can tell my senior railcard gets me discounts at commuting times to and from Manchester.

Playing around with the booking system of TPE there are so many fares to choose from. Seems I'm best at £20.85 on an Anytime short distance return valid for one month by train operator LNER. LNER don't operate on this route!

On my route there are 3 TOCs and at commuting times I can pay less by booking specific hourly trains, all apparently discounted with the railcard.

Which route is this?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Are you telling me that you didn't read the conditions before you bought the Railcard?

 

[Killingworth]

Which route is this?

I was using the TPE app for Dore to Piccadilly on Monday. Operators on the line are TPE, EMR and Northern.

 

[trainophile]

Are you telling me that you didn't read the conditions before you bought the Railcard?

If that question is to me (the OP), I most probably did (assuming they are not fifteen pages of tiny print as per some contracts e.g. phone system upgrades!), but living in the Midlands and mainly journeying to the North West it maybe didn't make a huge impression regarding restrictions on the Network Area, wherever that is . I now consider myself duly corrected.

 

[JonathanH]

That does seem to be based on a rather patronising assumption that 'commuters' only exist in the south east.

Of course commuters exist everywhere but the potential for revenue loss is far higher in the south east than in the rest of the country given that:

1. There are fare more rail commuters in the south east than in other areas of the country
2. Fares in the south east are generally more expensive than in other areas of the country

It simply reflects the fact that the restriction on the Senior Railcard and Family Railcard was imposed by Network South East rather than the privatised railway. InterCity and Regional Railways didn't choose to follow suit and ATOC haven't chosen to extend the restriction since.

You'll note that the Two Together Railcard isn't valid until 0930.

 

[alistairlees]

I was using the TPE app for Dore to Piccadilly on Monday. Operators on the line are TPE, EMR and Northern.

The Anytime Short Return fare is set by TPE on this route.

However, I can see how you are confused. The TPE app contains some fabulously out of date text about anytime short returns (accessible by clicking on the “i” icon):

Anytime Short Distance Return

Ticket description:


Anytime fares are fully flexible walk-up tickets with no restrictions on when you can travel.


The Anytime Short Return has exactly the same terms and conditions as the normal Anytime Return in that there are no time restrictions, EXCEPT that the outward portion of the ticket is valid for ONE day and not FIVE days. The return validity remains the standard calendar month.

This ticket type is initially being trialled on journeys between the Doncaster and Leeds areas and will be effective from 1st June 2015 until 31st December 2015. It's addition to the existing ticket range aims to give customers increased choice by offering a period Anytime return for use in the peak on short distance flows where traditionally only a Day ticket was available. This then provides both period options for Peak and Off Peak Travel.

Ticket Issuing Systems will display the ticket type as SHR - ANYTIME SHORT R.

Tickets will print with ANYTIME SHORT R.

Booking deadline:

Tickets can be bought in advance or immediately before travel. You can reserve a seat on many longer distance services. Reservations are recommended on busy services.There are no restrictions on when you can travel, however if you wish to change your date of outward travel or the origin and/or destination of your ticket, you will need to buy a new ticket and apply for a refund on your existing ticket (see below).

Changes:

-

Discounts:

Child:

Children (aged 5 to 15 inclusive) 50% discount. Up to two children aged under 5 can travel free with each fare paying passenger.

Railcard:

Minimum fare (applicable to 16-25 and HM Forces) is £12.

Refunds:

• See 'Refunds' section

Train operator:

London North Eastern Railway

 

[trainophile]

It simply reflects the fact that the restriction on the Senior Railcard and Family Railcard was imposed by Network South East rather than the privatised railway. InterCity and Regional Railways didn't choose to follow suit and ATOC haven't chosen to extend the restriction since.

You'll note that the Two Together Railcard isn't valid until 0930.

School run avoidance?

 

[Haywain]

School run avoidance?

No, simply a blanket off peak restriction.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Anytime ShortThe Anytime Short Return has exactly the same terms and conditions as the normal Anytime Return in that there are no time restrictions, EXCEPT that the outward portion of the ticket is valid for ONE day and not FIVE days. The return validity remains the standard calendar month.

This ticket type is initially being trialled on journeys between the Doncaster and Leeds areas and will be effective from 1st June 2015 until 31st December 2015. It's addition to the existing ticket range aims to give customers increased choice by offering a period Anytime return for use in the peak on short distance flows where traditionally only a Day ticket was available. This then provides both period options for Peak and Off Peak Travel.

Increased choice? Don't make me laugh. That may have been the original intention, but it is not what happened in practice when Northern changed most of their Anytime Returns (SOR) into Anytime Short Returns (SHR).

 

[Killingworth]

The Anytime Short Return fare is set by TPE on this route.

However, I can see how you are confused. The TPE app contains some fabulously out of date text about anytime short returns (accessible by clicking on the “i” icon):

I know there are many fares, but can afford to select whatever fits the time I need to leave and arrive, others can't. This thread highlights the complexity of the fare selection offered to travellers of all ages .

There are local variations across the nation. At my TVM I should be offered options for half price off peak travel in South Yorkshire as a holder of a SY bus pass - I think! With a TPE Manchester Airport employees pass I'd get a discount to the airport. There are a range of others. It's quite baffling to those unused to such matters wanting to travel today, or in the future.

I'd find the correct ticket for my next train wouldn't be available from the TVM if I didn't allow at least 15 minutes to buy it while others battle through the options. Within 5 minutes of departure it assumes I've missed it and offers the one an hour later! That may be in a different time band for some tickets.

Fortunately most regular travellers know their way round the obstacles encountered, for their regular journeys. It's the less frequent journeys and those who travel less frequently that cause difficulty.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Increased choice? Don't make me laugh. That may have been the original intention, but it is not what happened in practice when Northern changed most of their Anytime Returns (SOR) into Anytime Short Returns (SHR).

That was an East Coast brief , it introduced overnight returns to flows that didn’t previously have them .

 

[nanstallon]

I find this kind of discussion incredible - the British are so obsessed with not letting anyone 'get away' with anything that fares have become absurdly complicated. There must be about 20 different fares for most journeys!

 

[John @ home]

There must be about 20 different fares for most journeys!

For many journeys, 20 is a considerable under-estimate. If I have counted correctly, there are 128 different fares between London and Sheffield. 96 London Terminals - Sheffield fares are listed here, with another 32 London Euston - Sheffield fares here.

 

[RJ]

"London and the South East" is the former "Network Area", which includes all of the London commuter TOCs, including SWR. Basically the area in which the Network Railcard is valid, if you want a map.

The powers that be have done away with the Network Area map in stations so now we can't show customers where the area is.

 

[Western Sunset]

For many journeys, 20 is a considerable under-estimate. If I have counted correctly, there are 128 different fares between London and Sheffield. 96 London Terminals - Sheffield fares are listed here, with another 32 London Euston - Sheffield fares here.

Fares seem to vary from 5p! to over £1000. What a farce.

 

[A Challenge]

Fares seem to vary from 5p! to over £1000. What a farce.

The most expensive tickets (£2322, £1809 and £1161) and the only ones over £1000, are carnets, meaning they are valid for 10 first class, 10 standard class and 5 first class anytime return journeys respectively (with the 5 standard carnets being £904). The ones that are exactly 5p and £1000 are listed in simple mode as 'Other Fares', with a note that they are not normally available to purchase.

 

[alistairlees]

Fares seem to vary from 5p! to over £1000. What a farce.

The following fares are publicly available

Valid on EMR only
FSR OFF-PEAK 1R 9J 1ST RETURN ADULT: £184.00 CHILD: £92.00
1SO SUPER OFFPK 1R CJ 1ST RETURN ADULT: £137.00 CHILD: £68.50
1SS SUPER OFFPK 1S CJ 1ST SINGLE ADULT: £117.50 CHILD: £58.75

Valid via Chesterfield
FOR ANYTIME 1R ◊ 1ST RETURN ADULT: £258.00 CHILD: £129.00
FSR OFF-PEAK 1R 9J 1ST RETURN ADULT: £184.00 CHILD: £92.00
1SO SUPER OFFPK 1R CJ 1ST RETURN ADULT: £137.00 CHILD: £68.50
FOS ANYTIME 1S ◊ 1ST SINGLE ADULT: £139.00 CHILD: £69.50
1SS SUPER OFFPK 1S CJ 1ST SINGLE ADULT: £114.00 CHILD: £57.00
SOR ANYTIME R ◊ STD RETURN ADULT: £201.00 CHILD: £100.50
SVR OFF-PEAK R 9J STD RETURN ADULT: £127.00 CHILD: £63.50
SSR SUPER OFFPEAK R CJ STD RETURN ADULT: £80.00 CHILD: £40.00
SOS ANYTIME S ◊ STD SINGLE ADULT: £100.50 CHILD: £50.25
SSS SUPER OFFPEAK S CJ STD SINGLE ADULT: £79.00 CHILD: £39.50
SS2 SUPER OFFPEAK S CJ STD SINGLE ADULT: £47.00 CHILD: £23.50

Valid on EMR only / booked trains only
1AS ADVANCE 1ST AS ◊ 1ST SINGLE ADULT: £25.50 CHILD: £12.75 (plus 10 other price points; but only one can be shown)
2AS ADVANCE AS ◊ STD SINGLE ADULT: £15.00 CHILD: £7.50 (plus 10 other price points; but only one can be shown)

Valid on EMR & connections only / booked trains only
1AS ADVANCE 1ST AR ◊ 1ST SINGLE ADULT: £26.50 CHILD: £13.25
2CS ADVANCE AR ◊ STD SINGLE ADULT: £19.50 CHILD: £9.75

Valid on Hull Trains + TPE only
FOR ANYTIME 1R ◊ 1ST RETURN ADULT: £244.00 CHILD: £122.00

Valid on Any Permitted route
FOR ANYTIME 1R ◊ 1ST RETURN ADULT: £365.00 CHILD: £182.50
FOS ANYTIME 1S ◊ 1ST SINGLE ADULT: £182.50 CHILD: £91.25
SOR ANYTIME R ◊ STD RETURN ADULT: £221.00 CHILD: £110.50
SVR OFF-PEAK R 1T STD RETURN ADULT: £161.00 CHILD: £80.50
SSR SUPER OFFPEAK R 9D STD RETURN ADULT: £96.10 CHILD: £48.05
SOS ANYTIME S ◊ STD SINGLE ADULT: £110.50 CHILD: £55.25
SSS SUPER OFFPEAK S 9D STD SINGLE ADULT: £95.10 CHILD: £47.55
SSU SUPER OFF PK S 9D STD SINGLE ADULT: £48.05 CHILD: £24.05

Everything else is:
- a season ticket, essentially a better value derivative of one of the fares above
- a carnet, essentially a better value bundle of one of the fares above
- for business / travel agency resale / use; not for public use (but in the fares database, naturally)

Still quite a lot, I will most readily admit
- 13 first class ticket types (and more price points than that), ranging in price from £25.50 to £182.50 (for a single)
- 14 standard class ticket types (and more price points than that), ranging in price from £15.00 to £110.50 (for a single)

Really, the number of fares (price points) should not be an issue; there could be a thousand. It's the number of different ticket types that's the problem.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Just wait until the January fares for KGX to LDS , NCL and EDB are published , things get a lot simpler. The one point to re,e,her with Advance fares though is that there are basically only two @dvance fares available at any one time for a given route. They are the cheapest STD ticket and the cheapest 1ST ticket.