Appalling Treatment by South Western Railway

[Coolzac]

I'm furious at how I have been treated by SWR this morning.

My journey was Wandsworth Town to Islip. The ticket I wanted to purchase was the £21.10 day return via London with a Network Railcard discount.

I went to catch the 10.02 train from Wandsworth Town to Waterloo, as this would give me enough time to catch the 10.50 from Paddington to Oxford. I know this isn't an advertised connection but it's one I can easily make. I get to the ticket machine but it won't sell me the ticket as its just before 10.00. I cant wait until 10 as I may miss the train. I explain this to the man at the barrier, who understands the issue and lets me through, telling me to buy the ticket at the barrier at Waterloo.

I get to the barrier at Waterloo, and I explain this. However, when I attempted to buy the ticket I wanted I was refused. Instead, despite me carefully explaining that I had the permission of not only railway staff but a member of their company, they said I shouldn't have boarded the train and waited for the next one. Or that I should have got off at Clapham Junction and bought the ticket there. They also said that I could have been lying about the man at the barrier, and in any case, the man at the barrier was wrong. I said why should I be charged extra for a mistake made by someone from your company, but it fell on deaf ears. They refused to sell me the ticket I needed or to let me through, so I was forced to by a £3.80 single from Wandsworth Town to Waterloo to get me through the barrier. If she could sell me that, why did she refuse to sell me my required ticket?

I then went to the ticket office to complain to a manager. I carefully explained all the events, and then the manager then told me I was lucky not to be charged a penalty fare! I was done with arguing by this point so just left angry and frustrated.

I find this treatment absolutely disgraceful!

Firstly-

What will be the best avenue of complaint?

Secondly-

Is it right they are telling people to not take valid journeys because the ticket machines won't sell the required tickets before 10.00?

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Watershed]

I completely agree - that's an unacceptable way to treat customers. Unfortunately it's far from the first time we've heard of such incidents, and I doubt it will be the last time either. For future reference, you could buy your ticket online and (if you use the right retailer, e.g. Trainsplit) collect it straight away at the ticket machine, but obviously I appreciate that might not always be practicable - particularly if you wanted to pay by cash, or don't have a smartphone.

Your first port of call should be SWR's customer services. Send them your complaint detailing more or less the same as what you've told us above, together with any tickets, receipts etc.

I think you could quite reasonably expect an apology, an assurance that gateline staff will be rebriefed on what to do in these circumstances, and reimbursement of any additional fare you've had to pay, in addition to Delay Repay if you were delayed as a result of the gateline holdup. However, you won't be able to claim against an unofficial cross-London connection.

If they fail or refuse to provide those things within a reasonable space of time - really it should be within 2 weeks, but if you're still waiting at that point, I'd send a reminder and give them another 2 weeks - then you can take it further and we can advise on further steps.

Whilst legally speaking the gateline staff at Wandsworth Town didn't have to let you through the barriers, once they decided to do so, they gave you authority to board without a valid ticket. That being the case, you were entitled to pay at the next available opportunity, which would have been the Waterloo gateline (almost all guards on this route are non-commercial, meaning they can't sell tickets). There is no obligation to delay yourself by unnecessarily changing trains at Clapham Junction and buying your ticket there.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Wandsworth Town has a ticket office. Did you consider enquiring there at about 9.50am regarding purchase of the ticket? I fear that unless you had a written authority from member of staff at Wandsworth Town, you were treated very leniently. I hope you were able to buy the required ticket for your onward travel to Islip at the Waterloo ticket office. There is a legitimate connection from Wandsworth Town to Islip, departing on 10.02 and arriving at 12.00, but travelling via Marylebone, dep. 11.07.
There is nothing to be lost in a polite letter of complaint, but arriving at the departure station too late to purchase a ticket from an open ticket office is not a very good excuse for boarding a train without a ticket.

 

[Coolzac]

Wandsworth Town has a ticket office. Did you consider enquiring there at about 9.50am regarding purchase of the ticket? I fear that unless you had a written authority from member of staff at Wandsworth Town, you were treated very leniently. I hope you were able to buy the required ticket for your onward travel to Islip at the Waterloo ticket office. There is a legitimate connection from Wandsworth Town to Islip, departing on 10.02 and arriving at 12.00, but travelling via Marylebone, dep. 11.07.
There is nothing to be lost in a polite letter of complaint, but arriving at the departure station too late to purchase a ticket from an open ticket office is not a very good excuse for boarding a train without a ticket.

Wandsworth Town does not have a ticket office. I arrived with plenty of time, the issue was the machine wouldn't sell me my required ticket until 1-2 minutes before departure.

 

[Watershed]

I fear that unless you had a written authority from member of staff at Wandsworth Town, you were treated very leniently.

Permission to board without a ticket doesn't need to be in writing. The fact that OP said they were coming from Wandsworth Town, a barriered station, and were let through should be a decent hint that they're telling the truth. If necessary I'm sure the Waterloo gateline staff could have got in touch with Wandsworth Town to check out OP's account.

Whether or not there's a ticket office is irrelevant if OP has been given permission to board.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's bad form for the machines to refuse to sell a ticket valid on the next train.

In any case, our OP was allowed through the barrier, and this point

They refused to sell me the ticket I needed or to let me through, so I was forced to by a £3.80 single from Wandsworth Town to Waterloo to get me through the barrier. If she could sell me that, why did she refuse to sell me my required ticket?

is entirely valid. If they can sell tickets then why not just sell him the proper fare, even if they feel the need to accompany it with a lecture? It's bad service all round, and the OP shouldn't have been left worse off or feeling like the ticket office manager fobbed him off.

 

[Darandio]

Wandsworth Town does not have a ticket office. I arrived with plenty of time, the issue was the machine wouldn't sell me my required ticket until 1-2 minutes before departure.

Has it closed? It's irrelevant really and you have been treated harshly ehre but it certainly did have a ticket window.

 

[Coolzac]

Has it closed? It's irrelevant really and you have been treated harshly ehre but it certainly did have a ticket window.

It has a booth with a member of staff, but they are not able to sell tickets .

 

[AlterEgo]

Has it closed? It's irrelevant really and you have been treated harshly ehre but it certainly did have a ticket window.

NRE shows it as still open weekday mornings, although it is not always correct.

 

[Coolzac]

NRE shows it as still open weekday mornings, although it is not always correct.

That is wrong. It's my local station and as I said previously, all there is now is a booth with a member of staff but they don't sell tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

That is wrong. It's my local station and as I said previously, all there is now is a booth with a member of staff but they don't sell tickets.

SWR do indeed show it as closed on their site! NRE however maintain it's still open. Another avenue of complaint. Sigh!

 

[Wallsendmag]

SWR do indeed show it as closed on their site! NRE however maintain it's still open. Another avenue of complaint. Sigh!

SWR will be responsible for updating that NRE page

 

[thejuggler]

Don't know if its still the case, but I used to catch a 9.32am service from an unmanned Northern station with a ticket machine.

Just as in this case the machine wouldn't sell an off peak ticket for travel that day until it was 9.30am. As the machine is some distance from the platform waiting wasn't an option so I used to buy on board or at destination and explain that it was the first opportunity I had had to buy the ticket I wanted due to the ticket machine set up.

 

[robbeech]

I fear that unless you had a written authority from member of staff at Wandsworth Town, you were treated very leniently.

Permission to board without a ticket doesn't need to be in writing.

It doesn't but that turns the whole concept into nothing but a money making scam for both passengers AND for the Railway.

If they had contacted Wandsworth town and asked the member of staff if they had let you board without a valid ticket, what would they say?
I suspect most of the time they'd say "no idea mate, nobody been through here without a ticket" because they don't want to get in trouble. I'm sure there are staff that would be honest, and lots of them are here, and we appreciate that, but this method, despite it being the official one in the documentation cannot be relied upon by passengers and indeed, they have found themselves threatened with court because of it.

The sooner we abolish verbal permission to board and replace it with a COMPULSORY printed / written / whatever method the better. The trouble is, the lack of regulation would see everyone rejected.

We could reduce the requirement of this by getting a group of people with a combined IQ a trickle over room temperature to program TVMs properly but i fear the hunt would take longer than the proposed life of the current generation of TVMs.

 

[kristiang85]

I do find it incredibly frustrating that you cannot get railcard discounts before their allowed time at TVMs, yet you can buy them at ticket offices. All it needs is a window to warn you that the ticket is currently not valid for travel until XXXX time, and you agree to it, so there is no room for you to say you weren't warned. This is absolutely possible as it already happens when you buy super off peak tickets and it tells you all the times when you can use them.

However, reprogramming them would be far too much work and far too passenger friendly...

 

[robbeech]

I do find it incredibly frustrating that you cannot get railcard discounts before their allowed time at TVMs, yet you can buy them at ticket offices. All it needs is a window to warn you that the ticket is currently not valid for travel until XXXX time, and you agree to it, so there is no room for you to say you weren't warned. This is absolutely possible as it already happens when you buy super off peak tickets and it tells you all the times when you can use them.

However, reprogramming them would be far too much work and far too passenger friendly...

A change that costs money to implement that also costs money in the long run through decreased revenue is NEVER going to be something the railway favours.

 

[talldave]

I do find it incredibly frustrating that you cannot get railcard discounts before their allowed time at TVMs, yet you can buy them at ticket offices. All it needs is a window to warn you that the ticket is currently not valid for travel until XXXX time, and you agree to it, so there is no room for you to say you weren't warned. This is absolutely possible as it already happens when you buy super off peak tickets and it tells you all the times when you can use them.

However, reprogramming them would be far too much work and far too passenger friendly...

It's been the same for years. Many a time I stood next to a TVM at Gatwick buying a ticket online on my phone that the TVM refused to sell me, and then immediately collecting it from the very same TVM.

It's an archaic "we've always done it that way" mentality and I don’t see it ever changing until there's some fresh blood in the industry with the ability to step back and realise that the situation is stupid.

 

[Coolzac]

I've submitted a complaint so hopefully this issue will be dealt with. I am eagerly awaiting their response.

I made it clear that the barrier staff broke the National Rail Conditions of Travel and that I was overcharged.

As an eager rail traveller I find it so frustrating that at times the railway companies are so anti customer. Even when you follow the rules they set for themselves, you get treated badly!

In this situation all I wanted to do was buy a valid ticket and make my journey. Its not that much to ask for, is it?

 

[SteveM70]

Don't know if its still the case, but I used to catch a 9.32am service from an unmanned Northern station with a ticket machine.

Just as in this case the machine wouldn't sell an off peak ticket for travel that day until it was 9.30am. As the machine is some distance from the platform waiting wasn't an option so I used to buy on board or at destination and explain that it was the first opportunity I had had to buy the ticket I wanted due to the ticket machine set up.

Oddly enough I had a similar situation at Edinburgh this morning, when I wanted a ticket for the 9:16 train (this is off peak) but it was still peak time. Somehow - can't remember how exactly - I found an option to amend the "depart at" time, and it sold me the ticket I wanted. So good on Scotrail. Although a black mark to them for offering anytime day returns on Saturday, which I'm 99% sure is off peak all day

 

[sonic2009]

You have mentioned you catch the 1050 Paddington to Oxford service.

I can't see a connection from Oxford to Islip until 1340 using this service.

Do you break your journey in Oxford?

As going via Marylebone is quicker if you catch the 1002 from Wandsworth.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Oddly enough I had a similar situation at Edinburgh this morning, when I wanted a ticket for the 9:16 train (this is off peak) but it was still peak time. Somehow - can't remember how exactly - I found an option to amend the "depart at" time, and it sold me the ticket I wanted. So good on Scotrail. Although a black mark to them for offering anytime day returns on Saturday, which I'm 99% sure is off peak all day

Plenty of LNER TVMs there that would happily have sold you that ticket at any time

 

[SteveM70]

Plenty of LNER TVMs there that would happily have sold you that ticket at any time

And that sums up the problem from the customer's point of view. I wanted a ticket for as Scotrail train, so I went to a Scotrail machine. (There are also a lot more of them in the area outside Pret). Why should they differ in what they allow you to buy?

 

[yorkie]

I'm furious at how I have been treated by SWR this morning.

My journey was Wandsworth Town to Islip. The ticket I wanted to purchase was the £21.10 day return via London with a Network Railcard discount.

I went to catch the 10.02 train from Wandsworth Town to Waterloo, as this would give me enough time to catch the 10.50 from Paddington to Oxford. I know this isn't an advertised connection but it's one I can easily make. I get to the ticket machine but it won't sell me the ticket as its just before 10.00. I cant wait until 10 as I may miss the train. I explain this to the man at the barrier, who understands the issue and lets me through, telling me to buy the ticket at the barrier at Waterloo.

I get to the barrier at Waterloo, and I explain this. However, when I attempted to buy the ticket I wanted I was refused. Instead, despite me carefully explaining that I had the permission of not only railway staff but a member of their company, they said I shouldn't have boarded the train and waited for the next one. Or that I should have got off at Clapham Junction and bought the ticket there. They also said that I could have been lying about the man at the barrier, and in any case, the man at the barrier was wrong. I said why should I be charged extra for a mistake made by someone from your company, but it fell on deaf ears. They refused to sell me the ticket I needed or to let me through, so I was forced to by a £3.80 single from Wandsworth Town to Waterloo to get me through the barrier. If she could sell me that, why did she refuse to sell me my required ticket?

I then went to the ticket office to complain to a manager. I carefully explained all the events, and then the manager then told me I was lucky not to be charged a penalty fare! I was done with arguing by this point so just left angry and frustrated.

I find this treatment absolutely disgraceful!

Firstly-

What will be the best avenue of complaint?

Secondly-

Is it right they are telling people to not take valid journeys because the ticket machines won't sell the required tickets before 10.00?

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Write to SWR (be clear, concise and polite) and send me a message with the reference number and I'll use my contacts to see if I can get someone senior to look into it. No promises but I will try.

 

[zero]

Somehow - can't remember how exactly - I found an option to amend the "depart at" time, and it sold me the ticket I wanted.

You may have pressed "Tickets for future travel" in the bottom left hand corner

I have been able to buy off-peak tickets for future dates this way, but not sure if I would have been barred from buying one for the same day before the valid time commenced

Although Edinburgh's Scotrail machines were not able to sell me a ticket to Kintore

 

[Coolzac]

Write to SWR (be clear, concise and polite) and send me a message with the reference number and I'll use my contacts to see if I can get someone senior to look into it. No promises but I will try.

I used their online complaint form, and submitted it. I don't have a reference number. Should I have received one?

You have mentioned you catch the 1050 Paddington to Oxford service.

I can't see a connection from Oxford to Islip until 1340 using this service.

Do you break your journey in Oxford?

As going via Marylebone is quicker if you catch the 1002 from Wandsworth.

I wanted to break my journey in Oxford as its such a lovely place to hang around for a couple of hours!

 

[yorkie]

I used their online complaint form, and submitted it. I don't have a reference number. Should I have received one?

I don't know how their system works but in general most systems would give a reference number straight way but it may not be set up like that.

 

[Haywain]

I don't know how their system works but in general most systems would give a reference number straight way but it may not be set up like that.

That could go straight into a spam folder.

 

[sonic2009]

I used their online complaint form, and submitted it. I don't have a reference number. Should I have received one?


I wanted to break my journey in Oxford as its such a lovely place to hang around for a couple of hours!

I did wonder why, and agreed Oxford is lovely!

 

[DorkingMain]

Long argued when I was a guard there should be a 10-min window of opportunity to buy time-restricted tickets but with a warning "This ticket will not be valid until 10am" blah blah.

It's ok in situations where you're doing a decent length journey and have guards with ticket issuing facilities, but the chances of a guard having a machine and coming through between Wandsworth Town and Clapham Junction are just about zero

 

[Starmill]

If you're buying a ticket from the ticket machine but find that it's unable to sell the required ticket, speaking to a member of staff is most definitely the correct course of action. I definitely recommend following their advice in this situation. It can also be worth trying to use a help point. Only if you're sure you can't get the ticket you need and that there are no staff at all to ask for advice is it appropriate to board the train without a paying.

As the OP followed the instructions given and there would have been no alternative anyway I'm seriously disappointed that they were still charged.

I have been able to buy off-peak tickets for future dates this way, but not sure if I would have been barred from buying one for the same day before the valid time commenced

I've personally used ticket machines that seem to be set up both ways. In some cases they simply won't sell the ticket off peak or discounted if it is not valid all day, in some cases they will for a subsequent day but not for later the same day, and in other cases they will do both.

Northern and LNER's ticket machines won't sell the ticket unless they can find the scheduled itinerary, which is even more problematic because you can't customise it. E.g. Northern machines at Manchester Piccadilly will refuse to issue a WMR/LNR/TFW Only ticket to London Euston, no matter what time of day or day of the week it is.