Appealed for ticket fine denied even thought wrong ££ amount charged

[king100011]

Got a fine for not having a valid ticket, I had given boss my return leg as a receipt to get the money back by mistake.

Having a look at my fine I noticed that as per section 9.1 the penalty fare is £20 or twice the single fare applicable.

The single fare is £21.40 so the penalty fare should be have been £42.80 not the £43.80 that they had charged. So I appealed on that basis.

They responded

"I acknowledge the points raised by yourself and this case has been fully reviewed. Being confident that AS have followed the correct procedure, I can confirm that our initial decision remains and payment of the outstanding balance of £42.80 is now due. The Penalty fare amount has been reduced by £1.00 as the penalty fare should of been charged at £42.80."

Can they do this?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If I have understood you correctly, you appealed on the grounds that the penalty fare should be £42.80 rather than £43.80. The train company have agreed with you, and reduced the penalty fare to £42.80.

If you were hoping that they would write off the penalty fare altogether, I think you were being a bit optimistic. The train company has done what you asked for. There's no reason for them to do anything more.

 

[king100011]

Hoping yes, so basically there are very few valid reasons to get a penalty fare voided?

I also thought the whole point was if a genuine mistake was made they take this into consideration?

 

[furlong]

Well how did you phrase your appeal? That response can't be the complete response, surely? An appeal is either upheld (in which you get your full money back) - or it is not. If you are still being asked to pay, then that implies your appeal was refused. You can appeal up to 3 times. So make a 2nd appeal, including the evidence from that reply i.e. their acknowledgement that it was not issued in accordance with the rules and is therefore unenforceable.

 

[furlong]

Also, as you can appeal on multiple grounds, you should read the rules for yourself and see if there are any other aspects of non-compliance, and, if so, also include them in your appeal. (Many stations still seem to have non-compliant signage, for example.)

 

[king100011]

The only appeal I can see is on the grounds that it was not issued in accordance within the rules and thus is enforceable.

That was 2nd appeal, 1st was on a genuine mistake as the

Rail Minister Jo Johnson said:

Rail users should make every effort to get the right ticket for their journey, but if you make an honest mistake, you should feel confident that the appeals system will recognise this and treat you fairly.

We are simplifying the rules around penalty fares and introducing an independent appeals process to help those who make a genuine error when using the railway.

 

[furlong]

If you send a second appeal, make it easy for them by quoting the relevant parts of the rules you think they breached. E.g. 9(1) says what the amount must be, 5(2)(f) says you must be given a notice stating that amount at the time, and the appeals process is equally clear - navigate through the bits that say you get your money back for them, 16(3)(a), 17(4), 17(9) etc.

 

[furlong]

Other things to check are that the right fare was doubled (i.e. the cheapest walk up single fare appropriate for that train without any (railcard) discounts - whichever off-peak or anytime fare applied - some companies try to charge people the Anytime fare when the rules say otherwise).

 

[king100011]

The fare charged was £1 more expensive that what they should have charged.

 

[king100011]

My 2nd appeal was

"Section 16.3 (a) that the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these regulations.

As per section 9.1 the penalty fare is £20 or twice the single fare applicable"

In this case the penalty fare as quoted on your correspondence is £43.80 and also below the printed copy from your inspector, yet a single fare from to is £21.40.

With proof from Trainline and National Rail enquires with the £21.40

 

[king100011]

Dear Re: Penalty Fare Notice

Thank you for your further appeal in respect of the above referenced Penalty Fare Notice issued by Greater Anglia. The function of the Appeals Service (AS) is to examine the circumstances surrounding why a notice has been issued. As previously advised, to ensure fairness and consistency when making assessments, AS follow a Code of Practice compliant with the criteria set out in the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018.

All transport companies operating a Penalty Fare scheme display warning notices which advise transport users of their obligations and the potential consequences in failing to meet these. These warning notices confirm that you are required to purchase a valid ticket for your journey prior to boarding the train or you may be liable to a Penalty Fare.

The transport user is required to show on request a valid ticket. When travelling on Greater Anglia Trains, you must be able to produce a ticket at all times during travel.It is the production of your ticket which permits travel.

Whilst I acknowledge you had purchased a ticket as you were unable to produce the ticket, the inspector was correct to issue a Penalty Fare. Copies of the ticket, receipts and bank statements produced at a later date cannot be considered.

Transport Focus is the official watchdog organisation representing the interests of transport users outside London. Although unable to overrule the decision made by AS, Transport Focus can consider whether due process has been followed. They can be contacted at Freepost RTEH-XAGE-BYKZ, PO Box 5594, Southend on Sea SS1 9PZ, telephone 0300 123 2350, email [email protected], website www.transportfocus.org.uk

I acknowledge the points raised by yourself and this case has been fully reviewed. Being confident that AS have followed the correct procedure, I can confirm that our initial decision remains and payment of the outstanding balance of £42.80 is now due. The Penalty fare amount has been reduced by £1.00 as the penalty fare should of been charged at £42.80.

If you are still dissatisfied, a further appeal can be made within 14 days of the date of this letter, clearly quoting the notice number on all communications, to the Independent Appeals Panel (IAP). You may do this online at www.appealservice.co.uk, send by fax to 0844 544 8454 or by post to IAP, PO Box 267, Petersfield GU32 9FH.

Payment, or further appeal, must be received within 14 days of the date of this letter. Full payment options including, what will happen if you do not pay, are detailed in this response. Yours sincerely

 

[furlong]

So you've already appealed twice and both were rejected? That last reply looks rather 'slippery' - changing the amount is simply not a remedy available to them within the rules - and they should know that - there is no middle-ground available to them!

 

[londonboi198o5]

Whilst you are on the subject of rules etc. At the end of the day the railway make it VERY clear that you must show on demand a valid ticket.
Did you have a valid ticket NO so the penalty fare was issued correctly.

Yes you made a genuine mistake and handed the wrong ticket in for reimbursement however it is up to you to make sure you have the correct ticket before you board the train. Look at this from a different perspective what’s to say you and a friend etc were travelling and you split the tickets between to ie 1 pays 2 travel and trying to use the “I have giving the wrong ticket to my boss or I have throwing the ticket in the bin by accident” I am not saying this is what you have done just making a point and example.
Pay the fine ASAP to avoid it increasing then make your 3rd appeal.

 

[king100011]

Look at this from a different perspective what’s to say you and a friend etc were travelling and you split the tickets between to ie 1 pays 2 travel and trying to use the “I have giving the wrong ticket to my boss or I have throwing the ticket in the bin by accident”

I understand that, and thats why on the final leg, as I have to change trains, the inspector will mark/stamp/rip the ticket, there is always an inspector on this train no matter what time, I still have the ticket, with no marks etc. I have a later ticket that has been marked which I used.

You said it as well a genuine mistake. Rail Minister Jo Johnson said: Rail users should make every effort to get the right ticket for their journey, but if you make an honest mistake, you should feel confident that the appeals system will recognise this and treat you fairly.

Pay the fine ASAP to avoid it increasing then make your 3rd appeal.

I can either pay or make my 3rd and final appeal within 14 days.

changing the amount is simply not a remedy available to them within the rules

Any suggestions on what to say? Is there a time frame from appeal to reply that they must adhere to? Much the same as the police issuing you with a speeding ticket must be within 14 days of the offence.

 

[furlong]

Even 2nd level appeals are also supposed to be independent: this is impossible - "The Penalty fare amount has been reduced by £1.00" - the passive voice - *Who* has reduced the penalty by £1 and under what legal authority? The amount of the Penalty Fare is fixed by the regulations - an appeal provides no authority that I can see to "undo" what Greater Anglia actually did and to pretend the company had abided by the regulations after all!

As for what to do - a very clear and straightforward 3rd level appeal quoting the relevant part of the regulations with the reasoning, like a solicitor would. Don't dwell on irrelevant matters - they'll be included anyway from your earlier correspondence - just stick to the logic that it was not issued in accordance with the regulations and therefore the appeal has to be upheld.

 

[king100011]

It is ok if I put my appeal in here for anyone to check please.

Should I mention the who has reduced the penalty fare and under what legislation?

 

[furlong]

Should I mention the who has reduced the penalty fare and under what legislation?

I probably wouldn't - that's a separate complaint to the appeals service / DfT etc.
But you could use it as evidence that they accept the amount was incorrect and the regulations were not followed and that the "appeal service" made an error in applying the regulations.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What happens if you appeal a 3rd time and GA refuse, withdraw their offer and decide instead to prosecute you?

 

[robbeech]

Do post what you Intend to reply and people will read and comment.

I’d consider paying this if you haven’t already done so. If they dwell on things (deliberately or otherwise) then you May exceed the time limit and regardless of the outcome there will be additional faff to consider when the price goes up.
Paying this is not an admission of guilt so a successful appeal will see it refunded.

 

[robbeech]

What happens if you appeal a 3rd time and GA refuse, withdraw their offer and decide instead to prosecute you?

As far as I understand it they can no longer do this after the first appeal. Though there was some debate over the exact wording as to whether this option opened up again after subsequent ones.

 

[king100011]

What happens if you appeal a 3rd time and GA refuse, withdraw their offer and decide instead to prosecute you?

Then I go to court I guess. How can they withdraw their offer if the letter states nothing about withdrawing offer, just that I have 14 days to either pay or appeal.

Do post what you Intend to reply and people will read and comment.

I’d consider paying this if you haven’t already done so. If they dwell on things (deliberately or otherwise) then you May exceed the time limit and regardless of the outcome there will be additional faff to consider when the price goes up.
Paying this is not an admission of guilt so a successful appeal will see it refunded.

I appealed on the day I got the ticket which was the 01/04/2019, they sent their 1st denied on the 04/05/2019.

My appeal

This is an appeal under The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 for Penalty charge XXXXXXX under

Section 18(2)(b) on one or more of the grounds specified in regulation 16(3)
Section 16(3)(a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations; specifically
Section 9(1) Where a penalty fare is charged under regulation
5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of that penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable, whichever is greater.

The penalty fare was greater than twice the full single fare. The appeal letter dated 20th May 2019 admits that the penalty charge amount was incorrect thus the Ticket Inspector has not followed these regulations.

Under these circumstances I see no reason for the appeal to be denied.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The penalty fare was greater than twice the full single fare. The appeal letter dated 20th May 2019 admits that the penalty charge amount was incorrect thus the Ticket Inspector has not followed these regulations.

If you went to court, would you, or your solicitor be confident to be able to prove that the ticket inspector did not follow the regulations?

The court could argue that you couldn't produce a valid ticket for your journey. Penalty fares are issued for genuine mistakes (read around on this forum). GA have corrected things their side and given you a chance to pay up and make the matter go away

Have you considered the implications if you lose in court?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Did you have a valid ticket NO so the penalty fare was issued correctly.

No doubt the TOCs would be laughing to the bank if it were that simple. There are plenty of circumstances in which someone might not have a ticket and yet it would be completely inappropriate to issue a Penalty Fare. The passenger is not, unfortunately for the TOCs, always in the wrong.

Pay the fine ASAP to avoid it increasing then make your 3rd appeal.

Increasing? What, with utterly unenforceable "administration" fees that have no legal basis? This is one of the circumstances where I would strongly advise against paying, because prosecution is already barred due to the appeals body having made a determination on a first level appeal.

What happens if you appeal a 3rd time and GA refuse, withdraw their offer and decide instead to prosecute you?

They can withdraw the Penalty Fare if they like, but they are barred from prosecuting an incident in relation to which a Penalty Fare was issued, if a first stage appeal has been decided on by the appeals body.

Then I go to court I guess. How can they withdraw their offer if the letter states nothing about withdrawing offer, just that I have 14 days to either pay or appeal.

There's always a chance that Greater Anglia will be incompetent enough to overlook the statute bar on prosecution, but if they do then you might have a case for malicious prosecution. But that is getting ahead of ourselves.

In these circumstances, if you don't pay the Penalty Fare, the only lawful recourse that GA have is to pursue the matter through the civil Courts.

If you went to court, would you, or your solicitor be confident to be able to prove that the ticket inspector did not follow the regulations?

The court could argue that you couldn't produce a valid ticket for your journey. Penalty fares are issued for genuine mistakes (read around on this forum). GA have corrected things their side and given you a chance to pay up and make the matter go away

Have you considered the implications if you lose in court?

Compliance or otherwise with the Penalty Fares Regulations is irrelevant here. An appeal has been ruled on; GA are statute barred from prosecuting. Nothing else is relevant.

 

[Plethora]

If you went to court, would you, or your solicitor be confident to be able to prove that the ticket inspector did not follow the regulations?

The court could argue that you couldn't produce a valid ticket for your journey. Penalty fares are issued for genuine mistakes (read around on this forum). GA have corrected things their side and given you a chance to pay up and make the matter go away

Have you considered the implications if you lose in court?

I agree with this assessment . The penalty fare was appropriate, albeit the sum charged was incorrect. You have successfully challenged the quantum of the fine, but that does not mean you are likely to succeed on the issue of liability.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

My appeal

This is an appeal under The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 for Penalty charge XXXXXXX under

Section 18(2)(b) on one or more of the grounds specified in regulation 16(3)
Section 16(3)(a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations; specifically
Section 9(1) Where a penalty fare is charged under regulation
5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of that penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable, whichever is greater.

The penalty fare was greater than twice the full single fare. The appeal letter dated 20th May 2019 admits that the penalty charge amount was incorrect thus the Ticket Inspector has not followed these regulations.

Under these circumstances I see no reason for the appeal to be denied.

I would modify it as follows:

Dear Sir / Madam,

I am hereby submitting a third stage appeal against Penalty Fare number XXXXXXX.

The Appeals Body has previously accepted that the Penalty Fare was issued for an incorrect amount, as it was not issued for the amount which Regulation 9(1) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 prescribes.

This is to say that it is satisfied that a ground for appeal under Regulation 16(3)(a) applies - being that the Penalty Fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of the Regulations.

Accordingly, the Appeal Panel is required, by Regulation 18(4) of the Regulations, to allow this third stage appeal (and was also under an obligation to allow the second stage appeal). It is not within the remit of the Appeal Panel to vary the Penalty Fare after it has been issued; Regulation 18(4) is explicitly clear that:

"If the relevant Final Appeal Panel, after considering an appeal under this regulation, concludes that any ground specified in regulation 16(3) applies, it must, subject to paragraph (7), allow the appeal."

I await your appeal response confirming that my appeal has been upheld.

Yours faithfully,

king100011

Let us know if you hear anything back other than the appeal being upheld.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Dear Re: Penalty Fare Notic

...

the penalty fare should of been charged at £42.80

...

Yours sincerely

Should be rendered unenforceable by this alone

 

[king100011]

It wont let me make another appeal online even though I have only appealed twice, guess its back to the old letter and stamp.

 

[furlong]

Maybe also work 5(2)(f) into the reply where you say it was "issued" in 2nd para (to emphasise further that the amount concerned has to be notified at the time, not afterwards).

 

[jumble]

I agree with this assessment . The penalty fare was appropriate, albeit the sum charged was incorrect. You have successfully challenged the quantum of the fine, but that does not mean you are likely to succeed on the issue of liability.

Could I ask why you believe that the sections 16 parts 3 and 7 should not apply in this case?
Fortunately the third appeal will have nothing to do with GA or TIL so GA's idiotic arguments will be irrelevant.
( Hint if you don't believe section 3 applies then why is it there?)

Appeals – stage one 16.—
(3) The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that— (a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;
(7) If the relevant Appeal Panel, after considering an appeal under this regulation, concludes that any ground specified in paragraph (3) applies, it must, subject to paragraph (10), allow the appeal.

 

[Clip]

Got a fine for not having a valid ticket, I had given boss my return leg as a receipt to get the money back by mistake.

Having a look at my fine I noticed that as per section 9.1 the penalty fare is £20 or twice the single fare applicable.

The single fare is £21.40 so the penalty fare should be have been £42.80 not the £43.80 that they had charged. So I appealed on that basis.

They responded

"I acknowledge the points raised by yourself and this case has been fully reviewed. Being confident that AS have followed the correct procedure, I can confirm that our initial decision remains and payment of the outstanding balance of £42.80 is now due. The Penalty fare amount has been reduced by £1.00 as the penalty fare should of been charged at £42.80."

Can they do this?

So you admit you travelled with no ticket but by hook or crook you are going to do everything that you possibly can to get out of paying what you know you should rightfully have to pay because you were in the wrong.

Never mind all the faff above and all the inevitable 'Oh but the TOCs dont do this that or the other' this, as you all know is morally wrong and the fact that people are assisting is not looking good for the forum nor their members who are happy to do so.