ITO
New Member
Mod Note: Originally from this thread.
Hi
I have a similar issue and would like some advice about an appeal against a Penalty Notice. Thanks in advance!
I was travelling from Saltaire to Leeds on 5 September 2021. This line is operated by Northern. I knew I would need to make two return journeys from Saltaire to Leeds that day so decided to buy a DayRover, details here; National Rail Enquiries - West Yorkshire Train DaySaver . This ticket type is only available from staffed stations or on board the train. Saltaire is an unstaffed station with a TVM so my friend and I tried to buy the ticket on the train. The conductor was too busy and told us to buy our tickets at Leeds. At Leeds we went up to the ticket booth to try to buy the ticket, but while I was talking to the person beind the desk a Revenue Assurance Team member stopped me.
I was issued with a Penalty Notice which fines me £20, payable within 21 days. The Revenue Assurance Officer was really bullying and unreasonable. He insisted that the only circumstances in which it would be acceptable to not have a ticket would be if we had a promise to pay notice. He refused to listen to the fact that our ticket type was unavailable to buy except at staffed stations/ on the train, and that the train conduictor had told us to purchase at Leeds. He behaved very inappropriately; standing in an intimidatingly pose, avoiding accountability, denying that there is any discretion available and seeming to enjoy our distress. His younger colleague whispered that he knew this man was unreasonable but that he was the boss.
I have both appealed the notice and complained about the conduct of the Revenue Assurance Team.
I have had three replies from the complaints team at Northern. Initially they refused to engage with my concerns about the bullying irrational conduct of the Revenue Assurance Team and instead used their emails to defend the existence of a Penalty Notice scheme. Eventually they acknowledged that in the circumstances I have described I shouldn't have been issued with the Penalty Notice and apologised;
"Thank you for clarifying the product you wanted to purchase wasn't available from the Ticket Vending Machine. This wasn't clear in your initial correspondence and therefore I apologise for not querying this. Some tickets that Northern retail have different terms and conditions as the fares are set by the local transport authority. There are a small number of products that can only be purchased at a staffed station or onboard the West Yorkshire Day Ranger is one of these tickets.
The penalty fare policy and our enforcement of this policy takes into account these types of products and where the opportunity to purchase does not exist such as Saltaire Station then customers are permitted to purchase a ticket on board or on at arrival at a station that can retail the requested ticket. If you were prevented from purchasing the ticket at Leeds after requesting a West Yorkshire Day Rover and explained to the revenue officer that the ticket you intended purchase was only available on board or at the station then the revenue officer in question as failed to apply the policy correctly and therefore I sincerely apologise."
(I have asked them for more information about what they intend to do to avoid this bullying and irrationality happening again and they haven't yet replied.)
I am quite confident that my appeal will be upheld (keen to hear any views on this!) however I have received a letter from Penalty Services -from a 'no reply' email address- saying that they will not be able to reply 'as quickly as [they] would like'. My deadline for paying the £20 penalty is 26 September 2021 and it looks like my appeal will not have been determined before that time. I am concerned that if I don't pay the fine within the deadline then Northern (or their debt collectors) will start chasing me for the amount plus additional administrative fees. I am concerned (based on another post I saw on this Forum) that even if the appeal later succeeds that they may continue to chase me for administrative fees. It seems that Northern and Penalty Services don't talk to each other, so my understanding is that Northern won't know/ care that my appeal is outstanding, nor that their complaints manager has basically acknoweldged the Revenue Assurance Team's error.
I have already spent a lot of time dealing with these irrational systems and want to spend as little time as possible in future dealing with Northern & Penalty Services! Do you think I should pay and then if/when my appeal succeeds seek a refund? Does anyone have experience of getting a refund after succeeding in such an appeal? If I don't pay, will they extend the deadline to pay until the outcome of the appeal is known? Will they pursue me for admin fees even if the appeal is allowed?
Hope someone with experience can advise on what would be best.
ITO
Hi
I have a similar issue and would like some advice about an appeal against a Penalty Notice. Thanks in advance!
I was travelling from Saltaire to Leeds on 5 September 2021. This line is operated by Northern. I knew I would need to make two return journeys from Saltaire to Leeds that day so decided to buy a DayRover, details here; National Rail Enquiries - West Yorkshire Train DaySaver . This ticket type is only available from staffed stations or on board the train. Saltaire is an unstaffed station with a TVM so my friend and I tried to buy the ticket on the train. The conductor was too busy and told us to buy our tickets at Leeds. At Leeds we went up to the ticket booth to try to buy the ticket, but while I was talking to the person beind the desk a Revenue Assurance Team member stopped me.
I was issued with a Penalty Notice which fines me £20, payable within 21 days. The Revenue Assurance Officer was really bullying and unreasonable. He insisted that the only circumstances in which it would be acceptable to not have a ticket would be if we had a promise to pay notice. He refused to listen to the fact that our ticket type was unavailable to buy except at staffed stations/ on the train, and that the train conduictor had told us to purchase at Leeds. He behaved very inappropriately; standing in an intimidatingly pose, avoiding accountability, denying that there is any discretion available and seeming to enjoy our distress. His younger colleague whispered that he knew this man was unreasonable but that he was the boss.
I have both appealed the notice and complained about the conduct of the Revenue Assurance Team.
I have had three replies from the complaints team at Northern. Initially they refused to engage with my concerns about the bullying irrational conduct of the Revenue Assurance Team and instead used their emails to defend the existence of a Penalty Notice scheme. Eventually they acknowledged that in the circumstances I have described I shouldn't have been issued with the Penalty Notice and apologised;
"Thank you for clarifying the product you wanted to purchase wasn't available from the Ticket Vending Machine. This wasn't clear in your initial correspondence and therefore I apologise for not querying this. Some tickets that Northern retail have different terms and conditions as the fares are set by the local transport authority. There are a small number of products that can only be purchased at a staffed station or onboard the West Yorkshire Day Ranger is one of these tickets.
The penalty fare policy and our enforcement of this policy takes into account these types of products and where the opportunity to purchase does not exist such as Saltaire Station then customers are permitted to purchase a ticket on board or on at arrival at a station that can retail the requested ticket. If you were prevented from purchasing the ticket at Leeds after requesting a West Yorkshire Day Rover and explained to the revenue officer that the ticket you intended purchase was only available on board or at the station then the revenue officer in question as failed to apply the policy correctly and therefore I sincerely apologise."
(I have asked them for more information about what they intend to do to avoid this bullying and irrationality happening again and they haven't yet replied.)
I am quite confident that my appeal will be upheld (keen to hear any views on this!) however I have received a letter from Penalty Services -from a 'no reply' email address- saying that they will not be able to reply 'as quickly as [they] would like'. My deadline for paying the £20 penalty is 26 September 2021 and it looks like my appeal will not have been determined before that time. I am concerned that if I don't pay the fine within the deadline then Northern (or their debt collectors) will start chasing me for the amount plus additional administrative fees. I am concerned (based on another post I saw on this Forum) that even if the appeal later succeeds that they may continue to chase me for administrative fees. It seems that Northern and Penalty Services don't talk to each other, so my understanding is that Northern won't know/ care that my appeal is outstanding, nor that their complaints manager has basically acknoweldged the Revenue Assurance Team's error.
I have already spent a lot of time dealing with these irrational systems and want to spend as little time as possible in future dealing with Northern & Penalty Services! Do you think I should pay and then if/when my appeal succeeds seek a refund? Does anyone have experience of getting a refund after succeeding in such an appeal? If I don't pay, will they extend the deadline to pay until the outcome of the appeal is known? Will they pursue me for admin fees even if the appeal is allowed?
Hope someone with experience can advise on what would be best.
ITO