Apt-e

[devon_metro]

Why was it withdrawn?

 

[Darandio]

Too much negative publicity wasn't it?

 

[Dennis]

IIRC, one of the main problems, apart from engineering difficulties, with APT was that the tilt mechanism completely compensated for cant deficiency (i.e. is seemed as if it remained perfectly upright with no lateral g-forces) when tilting around bends. This made passengers feel nauseous and disorientated.

Pendolini and other modern tilting trains undercompensate slightly, allowing some feeling of going around a bend to be retained and overcoming the passenger comfort issues.

 

[Jordy]

Pendolini

 

[O L Leigh]

Because the APT-E was essentially a prototype for a number of experimental technologies, including gas turbine powerplants, lightweight monocoque vehicle construction techniques and tilting bodies.

The APT-P electric train benefitted from some of the lessons learned from the APT-E, but was dogged by a very limited development budget. This meant that some things were not fully understood or properly tested before the trains entered limited service. Matters were not helped when the trains were launched during one of the hardest winters of the time, which created it's own set of problems (notably frozen brake pipes). Therefore, reliability was apalling and BR was facing a media storm.

I think that BR actually did remarkably well considering that the entire project was run on a shoestring budget. Some of the technology lives on. For example, the Cl91 shares a number of features with the APT-P powercars (which is not the same as saying that the Cl91 is based on the APT-P powercar, as many say). Also, the Brecknell Willis High-Speed Pantograph was developed primarily for use on the APT.

The tilt angle problem inducing nausea in passengers could have been dealt with if BR had stuck with the project. Once the cause was understood the tilt packs could have been modified and the trains would have run fine. While it was a problem, it did not in itself cause the withdrawal of the APT-P.

one TN

 

[Dennis]

Ha silly me...APT-E was only ever 'experimental', APT-P being the production series.

Is the APT-E still at York? Seem to recall seeing it a few years ago dumped outside, looking a bit mouldy.

re Pendolini, feel free to correct me, my Italian isn't that good but I think that is the plural of Pendolino.

 

[Demps]

Ha silly me...APT-E was only ever 'experimental', APT-P being the production series.

Is the APT-E still at York? Seem to recall seeing it a few years ago dumped outside, looking a bit mouldy.

re Pendolini, feel free to correct me, my Italian isn't that good but I think that is the plural of Pendolino.

Prototypes*

and no unfortunately its moved to shilburn (i think, or something with a asimilar name, would you belive it i visited it there aswell, after its restoration at york NRM)

 

[Hentis]

Ahh but Penodlinos DO still make people feel and infact are sick when they tilt. In 2005 on my way to the NEC for the Warley show 3 people through up in my coach alone...not a pleasent smell at the least. It still made me feel sick on the way back. I feel it as I suffer from Meniers disease, and thats bad at the best of times.

Cheers

Hentis

 

[Demps]

Ahh but Penodlinos DO still make people feel and infact are sick when they tilt. In 2005 on my way to the NEC for the Warley show 3 people through up in my coach alone...not a pleasent smell at the least. It still made me feel sick on the way back. I feel it as I suffer from Meniers disease, and thats bad at the best of times.

Cheers

Hentis

Not you respectively, but the lightweights being sick **** me of.

 

[Coxster]

Is the APT-E still at York? Seem to recall seeing it a few years ago dumped outside, looking a bit mouldy.

I have found this good APT-P resource: http://www.apt-p.com It says the APT-E and one APT-P vehicle are at Locomotion (Shildon) and the APT-P (minus the vehicle mentioned) can be found at The Railway Age (Crewe).

 

[gordonthemoron]

Prototypes*

and no unfortunately its moved to shilburn (i think, or something with a asimilar name, would you belive it i visited it there aswell, after its restoration at york NRM)

It's at Shildon near Darlington

 

[Darandio]

It's at Shildon near Darlington

Tis a good place too.

 

[thefab444]

Ahh but Penodlinos DO still make people feel and infact are sick when they tilt. In 2005 on my way to the NEC for the Warley show 3 people through up in my coach alone...not a pleasent smell at the least. It still made me feel sick on the way back.

I've not heard of many being sick (actually I've heard of about 3 people), when I went on one on a proper tilt run, I couldn't help thinking - how the hell could this make someone sick, its rather fun. Although, there are some people that chuck up as soon as they touch a boat, so I fully understand your 'problem'. Each to his own of course, and I'm trying not to sound negative here.

APT-P were still prototypes; the final versions would've been called APT-S (Squadron).

John

 

[Tom]

The tilting messes up the eardrum a bit as your sense of balance is skewed, but is amplified by some illnesses/diseases. Also as your eyes see something different to what you feel, it also amplifies it a bit.

 

[Hentis]

I've not heard of many being sick (actually I've heard of about 3 people), when I went on one on a proper tilt run, I couldn't help thinking - how the hell could this make someone sick, its rather fun. Although, there are some people that chuck up as soon as they touch a boat, so I fully understand your 'problem'. Each to his own of course, and I'm trying not to sound negative here.

APT-P were still prototypes; the final versions would've been called APT-S (Squadron).

John

Trust me when I was speaking to the guard on the puke'alino he said they had about 1 or 2 each trip. Going back I was fine going there I felt really bad, As to the" people being lightweights" post quite frankly is insulting. How do you know if the person has a condition or not. I didnt know I had menieres until I was rushed into Hospital by ambulance after collapsing at home mumbling incoherently, violently throwing up and generally making a mess of the place!!

Hentis

 

[devon_metro]

Shame really, would mean we didn't have those pendolino things

 

[ChrisCooper]

The APT-E was overall a sucess, and did record breaking runs on both the GWML and the MML, with a top speed of 152.3mph on the former, and managing London to Leicester (99miles) in just 58 1/2mins (current fastest is 1hr 9mins). At this time, both lines used loco hauled stock with tops speeds of 100mph (class 50s) and 90mph (class 45s) respectivly, compared to HSTs running at 125mph and 110mph today. Much was learnt from it's development and testing that is still used on railways around the world, particularly a massivly improved understanding of the track-train interface. Development for the P train also gave a lot of understanding of high speed current collection and pantograph-ohle interface. One particular issue surrounding the failure of the APT project was that P was rushed into production without learning the lessons from APT-E, and was then rushed into service. As has been said, the bad timing of starting public working in the winter, where cold weather caused problem was bad mistake. As for the throwing up, whilst many journalists reported this, it wasn't such a problem for ordinary passengers, and it's felt that the supply of free alcohol may have been a contributary factor. Later, the tilt effect was reduced to increase the feeling of cornering, and this pretty much solved the problem. Oviously motion sickness is a problem on any transport though, and high performance trains will increase the problem. I felt a little sick the first time I travelled on the Eurostar (you get funney effects there both from steep banking on corners, and the sudden gradient changes, particularly the noticable weight loss when going over the crest of a hill), and the complimentary wine was probably a big part of it.

 

[kettlefan]

poor old APT, I wish I'd been around to travel on it. Oh well I suppose I can at least stand in it now!

Incidentally the APTs little brother as marketed by Hornby in the 80s was a bit of a disaster area. The tilt mech would foul the bogies when running into a curve and the train would just carry straight on, oblivious to the track! Sometimes prototypical performence is a downer. Wonder if Hornby will ever re-do it?