APT Passengers

[Doomotron]

Are there any people on the forums that actually travelled on the APT? What were they like to travel in? What did they sound like? How were the seats?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there any people on the forums that actually travelled on the APT? What were they like to travel in? What did they sound like? How were the seats?

Some Anglia Railways Mk2s were fitted with the same seats, which while they looked cheap and nasty were reasonably OK. I half recall FGW's Mk2 TSOs converted from FOs also had those seats.

 

[silverfoxcc]

Yes
Did Glasgow to Preston, fro some reason there were no restriction on where you could sit, so sampled both first and Standard.As i recall the ride at slow took some getting used to but when up to speed it was brilliant and quiet. Have never travelled on pendilino so cannot comment on how it compares.

 

[Mag_seven]

Are there any people on the forums that actually travelled on the APT?

Yes - I travelled from Preston to Glasgow on it. I would have been about 16 at the time. All I remember thinking was it seemed cramped compared to the Mark 3 coach I had travelled down from Glasgow in.

 

[duffield]

Yes - I travelled from Preston to Glasgow on it. I would have been about 16 at the time. All I remember thinking was it seemed cramped compared to the Mark 3 coach I had travelled down from Glasgow in.

Due to the tilt profile I suppose; I always find the Pendolinos a bit claustrophobic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Due to the tilt profile I suppose; I always find the Pendolinos a bit claustrophobic.

The Pendolino has TASS (Tilting Authorisation and Supervisory System, I think) which has allowed it to have a slightly larger body profile by turning tilt off at pinch-points (more accurately turning it on where it's safe to tilt, so it's fail-safe). The APT didn't have this and thus was even smaller.

 

[Journeyman]

The Pendolino has TASS (Tilting Authorisation and Supervisory System, I think) which has allowed it to have a slightly larger body profile by turning tilt off at pinch-points (more accurately turning it on where it's safe to tilt, so it's fail-safe). The APT didn't have this and thus was even smaller.

Yes, APT tilted to about 9 degrees, Pendolino only tilts to about 6 degrees, so that makes quite a difference too.

 

[Flying Phil]

I did visit the preserved APT set at Crewe last year and the interior felt more like being in an aeroplane. Here are pictures showing first and second class seating areas.

I do wish that I had travelled in it! I wonder how much it would cost to return the set to running order?

 

[Journeyman]

I did visit the preserved APT set at Crewe last year and the interior felt more like being in an aeroplane.

I do wish that I had travelled in it! I wonder how much it would cost to return the set to running order?

Certainly those luggage bins give it a plane-like feel, along with the interior finishes. It's very distinctive.

I've often wondered about restoration, and I've a feeling that even with unlimited sums of money, it's a non-starter. Besides tilt, which I think would have to be disabled, it had dozens and dozens of non-standard features that made the train a reliability nightmare right from the word go - this is one of the prime reasons for BR not advancing the project. Add to that the stuff like TPWS and OTMR, and I think you'd really struggle to get it anywhere near running again. It's a shame, but I think we're very lucky that the few vehicles we have are in reasonable nick and have survived. Remember this was a huge embarrassment for BR, and most vehicles were cut up very quickly.

 

[trebor79]

I think it could be done, given the will and money.
They got a Vulcan flying again, so it's surely possible to get a train running again.
Whether it would be cost effective is another question. Probably a project for a Euromillions winning train buff.

My father travelled on it and all he could recall was that it was "fine".
Whenever I sit in a Mk4, I think to myself "this is what the APT-S would have looked like".

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it could be done, given the will and money.
They got a Vulcan flying again, so it's surely possible to get a train running again.
Whether it would be cost effective is another question. Probably a project for a Euromillions winning train buff.

My father travelled on it and all he could recall was that it was "fine".
Whenever I sit in a Mk4, I think to myself "this is what the APT-S would have looked like".

I suppose Mk4s are of a similarly claustrophobic profile. Nasty things.

I don't think I'd have liked the APT...

 

[Journeyman]

I suppose Mk4s are of a similarly claustrophobic profile. Nasty things.

I don't think I'd have liked the APT...

I really don't get why the Mark 4 is so hated. It's far better than the squeaky, bouncy, draughty Mark 3.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really don't get why the Mark 4 is so hated. It's far better than the squeaky, bouncy, draughty Mark 3.

Because it rides like a cart and is quite cramped. And as built had awful seats, though the ones fitted later with the later two-piece cushion are about as good as it gets.

It's a real pity the new generation LHCS wasn't based on the Class 158 vehicles, which were as close to perfect as a long-distance vehicle as anything else BR made.

 

[plarailfan]

I never saw the APT in service. I've always wondered if the power cars sounded like the class 91 electric locomotives, as the 91's gubbins were a development of the APT, so far as I'm aware.

 

[hexagon789]

The Pendolino has TASS (Tilting Authorisation and Supervisory System, I think) which has allowed it to have a slightly larger body profile by turning tilt off at pinch-points (more accurately turning it on where it's safe to tilt, so it's fail-safe). The APT didn't have this and thus was even smaller.

APT-P had a similar beacon based system - C-APT (Control-APT), it authorised higher speeds when tilting which came up on a display, reductions in speed had to be acknowledged in a similar manner to AWS warnings.

Yes, APT tilted to about 9 degrees, Pendolino only tilts to about 6 degrees, so that makes quite a difference too.

Pendolinos tilt to 8 degrees in service, Super Voyagers are 6 degrees. Which is why on some sections 390s are allowed higher speeds than 221s.

 

[superjohn]

The barrier to getting it back into service would be its experimental nature. It will have hand made custom systems using obsolete electronics that may not even exist anymore. Many of them were troublesome when they were brand new let alone 30plus years later. Unlike steam and early diesel parts this is not the sort of stuff that can be remade from scratch. The number of people with knowledge of the inner workings is also small and getting smaller.

Compare that to the Vulcan which was in squadron service which would have meant a considerable resource of parts and knowledge being established. Even they struggled in that respect, there are some things money just can’t buy.

I was at Crewe a couple of weeks ago and I have to say the small team are doing a great job with the APT. If you look on Youtube and Facebook there are videos of various systems being brought back to life, it even tilts! I think that sort of restoration is the best we can realistically hope for.

 

[50039]

I travelled on it - Euston to Preston. Can’t really remember too much about it - I didn’t notice anything fancy about the tilt, didn’t make me feel sick as people had suggested. Didn’t feel that fast as I recall, clocked it at a max of 124mph according to my records/memory. Came home in a mark 2E which felt noisy and rattly by comparison!

 

[Journeyman]

I travelled on it - Euston to Preston. Can’t really remember too much about it - I didn’t notice anything fancy about the tilt, didn’t make me feel sick as people had suggested.

Although there's always going to be some people who suffer from motion sickness who might find the tilt uncomfortable, it's been widely accepted that the press jolly BR staged for journalists, with copious free booze, was the biggest contributory factor to any feelings of nausea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although there's always going to be some people who suffer from motion sickness who might find the tilt uncomfortable, it's been widely accepted that the press jolly BR staged for journalists, with copious free booze, was the biggest contributory factor to any feelings of nausea.

Most probably, though Pendolino tilt did initially make me a bit queasy, particularly in coach A where there's nothing to predict off. (The APT tilt didn't predict off the coach in front, so all would have tilted slightly rough like coach A of a Pendolino).

 

[Bevan Price]

Sadly, I never travelled in APT - the timings were inconvenient for any journey I might have wanted to make. But having sat in the preserved unit at Crewe, I think that the seating layout was vastly superior to that used in Pendoinos or Voyagers.

 

[moggie]

I had the pleasure travelling APT Glasgow to London.
At the time I recall being very aware that this was BR's representation of what interCity travel was to become for the next couple of decades or so. In retrospect, irrespective of the inability of various media hacks to multitask by digesting their Full English on top of the liquid refreshments of the night before, it never would have survived the test of time compared to the MkIII carriage.
My first impression was one of a modern but unflattering interior trim matched with the gaudy tartan mokette. But, the seats were comfortable enough and the ride was exhilarating compared with anything I'd travelled on before hand. No nausea here! The sense of tilt was very evident, perhaps because I was watching for it, but not unsettling - thrilling yes, especially watching the forward section of the train enter bends at speed with the tilt rippling along the train as it progressed into the bend from the rear section still on the straight. Speed was also very evident with the low window profile - similar to riding A MK1 today compared with modern stock. I don't have any clear memory of sound. Maybe it was unremarkable?

 

[Busaholic]

Never got a ride on an APT, even though I travelled a bit from Euston to Preston at the time. Saw it three times, I think, though two were linked: it overtook our Preston to London train at some stage north of Crewe, then about half an hour later we passed it apparently broken down in the middle of nowhere. On another occasion, arriving at Euston it stood at an adjoining platform, which was the nearest I ever got to it.

 

[hexagon789]

The APT tilt didn't predict off the coach in front, so all would have tilted slightly rough like coach A of a Pendolino

Originally it didn't, but they altered that so that each subsequent coach predicted it's tilt off the one in front, exactly like a Pendolino.

They also reduced the amount of tilt from 9 to 8 degrees at the same time so that the forces were no longer fully cancelled out so passengers weren't seeing but not feeling the tilt anymore.

 

[Helvellyn]

Power cars in the middle effectively requiring two sets of on board crews and the hydro-kinetic brakes were other things that added to the complexity/cost. If they had been able to have power driving cars that would have helped. I do wonder what dwell times would have been like with one door per coach each side and opposite the toilet to boot. If I recall there were no luggage stacks either. Unfortunately it became a white elephant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Power cars in the middle effectively requiring two sets of on board crews and the hydro-kinetic brakes were other things that added to the complexity/cost.

Weren't the brakes what caused most of the issues? As for power cars in the middle, APT-S was going I believe to have it at one end on a shorter formation, but hasn't that been proven a bit of a non-issue by TOCs choosing to go for 5-car units running in pairs?

If they had been able to have power driving cars that would have helped. I do wonder what dwell times would have been like with one door per coach each side and opposite the toilet to boot. If I recall there were no luggage stacks either. Unfortunately it became a white elephant.

For a low-density compulsory reservation IC coach probably no more of an issue than that sort of setup will be for the Norwich IC FLIRTs.

 

[WesternLancer]

Great to read this thread.

Our local station master (on the south coast) knew of my and my fathers interest in railways and alerted us to the trial runs being undertaken with passengers in the early 80s. He booked us on a day rtn trip Euston to Preston on the APT - maybe c1982? - which was a releif train to a normal service - a good example of local BR staff 'selling the product'!

I would have been aged about 13. Of course this missed the twisty section north of Preston - which I now regret missing - but as we assumed the trains would be rolled out to full service in due course, we viewed this as just a taster trip of what was to come. After arrival at Preston we pretty much got on the first train back to Euston, can't recall what that was but maybe an 86 and Mk2s - at that time they always seemed to retain Mk1 buffet / restaurant cars in WCML rakes I seem to recall,which seemed odd to me then.

Anyway

APT interior felt specious and modern to me (most of my rail travel was Mk1 EMUs and only the occasional HST on WR or ER), and I seem to recall thinking the buffet area was swish too. The pics above of course very much bring back the sense of it (I must go to Crewe to look). Note how most of the seats are table seats - as were HSTs/Mk3s before their late 80s interior refurb IIRC, much less cramped than a Pendolino seems to me, though the larger windows may help in that regard, and I was shorter then!

The large, and lowish (?) windows were great on the APT. Sound insulation was good (well, if a Mk1 is your benchmark that is probably bound to be the case...). The tartan upholstery was very fashionable at the time I seem to recall.

I have no recollection of power car noise. Speed, power and acceleration sticks in my mind. It all seemed very much the shape of things to come to me at the time.

I think I have a few bits of ephemera from the trip somewhere. Very glad our station master was kind enough to sort it all out for us. A kind chap who always had time for a chat.

My other recollection is of a spotting session at Euston when an APT was at a platform. The crew generously invited me and a few others hanging about at the end of the platform into the cab, which was a treat. It seemed very high tech and modern. I guess it did not leave on a run whilst I was in the vicinity or I might have had more of a sense of power car sounds. I suspect I have a few photos of that occasion, though film was a precious commodity for a 13-14 year old even in the 80s!

I probably didn't hang about after cabbing it, but would have headed over to Collectors Corner for a poke around, which was usually combined with a trip to Euston!

Fast forward 15 years to when I met my partner and I was impressed to find out her father worked at BR Research, including work that linked to the APT early testing at Old Dalby etc

The BTF film on the APT (Round Trip to Glasgow) which I think was never really released at the time, always brings back a sense of that trip I took when I see it.

As far as this 13 year old enthusiast and passenger was concerned, it was a great train and I salute all who worked against the odds to make it happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would have been aged about 13. Of course this missed the twisty section north of Preston - which I now regret missing - but as we assumed the trains would be rolled out to full service in due course, we viewed this as just a taster trip of what was to come. After arrival at Preston we pretty much got on the first train back to Euston, can't recall what that was but maybe an 86 and Mk2s - at that time they always seemed to retain Mk1 buffet / restaurant cars in WCML rakes I seem to recall,which seemed odd to me then.

There were never any Mk2 buffets built - the ones you later got on XC were much later conversions from FOs.

 

[WesternLancer]

There were never any Mk2 buffets built - the ones you later got on XC were much later conversions from FOs.

Cheers, yes, of course as a non WCML user at that time I did not know that, so all the Mk2 rakes had Mk1 catering vehicles I guess. When did Mk3 hauled stock start on the WCML? I assume that had a supply of Mk3 hauled catering vehicles.

Of course around the time of the trip above I used to enjoy seeing the Manchester Pullman with 'original' Mk2 Pullman carriages at Euston occasionally (so they must have had catering vehicles?). That impressed me because in 1982/3 that was surely the only Pullman left on the network, before IC sector introduced a few more - but using normal Mk3 stock etc a bit later on in the 1980s.

 

[WesternLancer]

There were never any Mk2 buffets built - the ones you later got on XC were much later conversions from FOs.

Yes, recall the XC small buffet counters when I used to use the Sussex Scot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheers, yes, of course as a non WCML user at that time I did not know that, so all the Mk2 rakes had Mk1 catering vehicles I guess. When did Mk3 hauled stock start on the WCML? I assume that had a supply of Mk3 hauled catering vehicles.

Not sure when to be honest, but yes Mk3 catering vehicles were built and were the norm on the WCML.