Are all journeys with Oyster fares supposed to be in the National Rail fares database?

[Paul Kelly]

Most journeys that can be made on Oyster also have fares showing in the National Rail fares database using special ticket types PAP and POP. E.g. for Waterloo to Ewell West, on the relevant BR Fares page http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=WAT&dest=EWW they are shown as follows:


But I was wondering, does anybody know whether these are always supposed to be there, is there a defined process for adding them, or does it just depend on somebody from a TOC remembering to update them?

I received a complaint from a BR Fares user that the site doesn't show the available Oyster fares from Ilford to Gatwick:
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=IFD&dest=GTW

The fares definitely exist; you can see them on LT Fares (which uses TfL data):
http://www.ltfares.com/!fares?orig=NRIFD&dest=NRGTW

But should they be there in the National Rail data and showing on BR Fares? Whose job is it to add them?

 

[MikeWh]

There are many fares missing. It's probably added by the TOC who prices the fare, but it's for information only. They aren't even always correct.

 

[matt_world2004]

Oyster fares are added to the national rail fares database, so conductors and guards can look it up on their ticket machines, I believe. It doesn't actually effect the pricing of routes. but the information should be there for good customer service purposes at least.

 

[RJ]

When I worked at Euston the POP and PAP tickets were issued and fed through the FasTIS machine which then loaded the amount for that journey onto the customer's Oyster card. I suspect this function is redundant now hence why there are gaps and out of date fares in the database.

Some staff sell them to customers as paper tickets, which shouldn't happen but does.

A lot of the fares are missing to the extended Oyster area, to Gatwick for instance. I had the TfL Fare Finder web page bookmarked on the ticket office computer, but it was barely capable of loading any web pages, including that one. It would be nice if the fares were loaded into the database, because a lot of staff aren't able to tell customers how much their fare will be!

 

[Paul Kelly]

When I worked at Euston the POP and PAP tickets were issued and fed through the FasTIS machine which then loaded the amount for that journey onto the customer's Oyster card. I suspect this function is redundant now.

Now that makes a lot of sense. FasTIS is used so rarely now (I seem to remember somebody mentioning recently one window at Fenchurch Street having it, but it was normally closed) that there will be nobody demanding this is correct. Perhaps that explains things.

I'm thinking of adding a feature to BR Fares, if I'm able to automatically identify which stations are in the Oyster area (I think if they have POP or PAP fares to at least one other station, that might be a good rule of thumb) to show a direct link to the LT Fares page for the same journey and suggest the user checks Oyster/contactless fares there...

 

[causton]

When I worked at Euston the POP and PAP tickets were issued and fed through the FasTIS machine which then loaded the amount for that journey onto the customer's Oyster card. I suspect this function is redundant now hence why there are gaps and out of date fares in the database.

Wow, that is clever! I mean, the way I did it when I did that was not any less of a hack...

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=EUS&dest=J103

 

[RJ]

Wow, that is clever! I mean, the way I did it when I did that was not any less of a hack...

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=EUS&dest=J103

We did those too if the customer wanted a fixed amount on their Oyster. Some told us where they were going and so the exact amount was loaded.

This continued until TfL put a stop to sub £5 transactions taking place at ticket office windows, then shortly after we were instructed not to do it at all and send customers to the TVM.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Now that makes a lot of sense. FasTIS is used so rarely now (I seem to remember somebody mentioning recently one window at Fenchurch Street having it, but it was normally closed) that there will be nobody demanding this is correct. Perhaps that explains things.

As far as I know Chiltern and Arriva Rail London still use FasTIS as their primary TIS, though Marylebone and Northolt Park are the only Chiltern stations able to retail Oyster products through it.

 

[mattdickinson]

The LTfares has an interesting list of stations on the Oyster system (many of which I have never heard of any proposals for, such as Barnham or Ely)...

http://www.ltfares.com/!stations

 

[Paul Kelly]

The LTfares has an interesting list of stations on the Oyster system (many of which I have never heard of any proposals for, such as Barnham or Ely)...

http://www.ltfares.com/!stations

The stations are in the TfL API, rather than in the Oyster system specifically. I would take it with a pinch of salt. TfL keep the real Oyster database fairly secret, only allowing access to it through their API, which has been primarily designed for journey planning and so contains a lot of locations not relevant to Oyster.

 

[Paul Kelly]

This is getting more curious as some new fares are still being added; it's not just a case of the existing set becoming stagnant. Even Ilford to Reading is now showing contactless fares: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=IFD&dest=RDG

But still Ilford to Gatwick, as mentioned in the OP, isn't. MikeWh's suggestion that it is done by the TOC who owns the flow might have something going for it, I think.

 

[RJ]

The LTfares has an interesting list of stations on the Oyster system (many of which I have never heard of any proposals for, such as Barnham or Ely)...

http://www.ltfares.com/!stations

You can buy tickets to those stations from the LU TVMs so they have a function in TfL's fare database.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

Don't understand that list at all. It's clearly not as it claims to be "all origin stations on the Oyster fare system" or even stations that have had fairly definite plans for Oyster at some time. It's also not a list of destinations available from LU ticket machines (Brighton is an obvious omission).

 

[Paul Kelly]

It could say "all origin stations in the TfL API" but I was trying to be less geeky/technical with the wording. Really the problem is that TfL doesn't make the "raw" Oyster fares database available as open data, but it is instead bodged into the TfL API which is mainly designed for journey planning and as a result there are quite a few design compromises.

 

[Taunton]

We did those too if the customer wanted a fixed amount on their Oyster. Some told us where they were going and so the exact amount was loaded.

This continued until TfL put a stop to sub £5 transactions taking place at ticket office windows, then shortly after we were instructed not to do it at all and send customers to the TVM.

One thing that TfL don't seem to get is there are many (yes, a surprising number) of passengers who cannot afford to load £50 at a time onto an Oyster, but top it up just for each journey (seems to me a literal use of 'Pay As You Go', but whatever). This even includes a lot of bus users paying 1.50 at a nearby ticket shop in the morning, then again returning from work. That's all they can afford. Not everyone is on TfL management salaries.