Are British governments anti-British?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by tom73, 30 Aug 2019.

  1. tom73

    tom73 Member

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    New trains from Spain and even Switzerland contributing to the destruction of our once proud train building industry.
    Our coal industry could have been downsized (reductions in usage of coal) rather than being destroyed completely. Britain is now importing millions of tons of coal per year.
    In terms of the fishing industry, the government gave in way too easily to the ridiculous demands by the Icelandic government for a 200-miles exclusion zone. How could such a small nation possibly need all that fish.
    QUOTE The largest exporters to the UK in 2017 were China (67 thousand tonnes) and Iceland (56 thousand tonnes). They were followed by Germany (50 thousand tonnes), Denmark (43 thousand tonnes) and the Faroe Islands (36 thousand tonnes). UNQUOTE
    https://assets.publishing.service.g...e/742793/UK_Sea_Fisheries_Statistics_2017.pdf
    252 thousand tonnes of fish imported with Iceland supplying much of our cod.
    How many Train Operating Companies are foreign owned?
    How many bus operating companies are foreign owned?
    At least the largest NHS contractor is British but how long will that last?
    The day will surely come.
    The day the British government throw in the towel complete in the context of national pride will surely come. The day this country becomes an overseas territory of the United States of America.
     
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  3. cactustwirly

    cactustwirly Established Member

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    Mate our industry is long gone!
    We're a service based economy these days.
     
  4. gordonthemoron

    gordonthemoron Established Member

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    Britain gave in to Iceland becase we were leant on by the USA, the rest is self inflicted by the UK government
     
  5. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Ok.............. Shall we try and return to planet earth?
     
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    There is a lot of industry left. The trouble is that much of it isn't British owned.

    Sadly, Brexit (which I don't overall support) will most likely sell our assets to the US rather than genuinely make us build our own businesses and hold them proudly for ourselves.
     
  7. 433N

    433N Member

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    Unfortunately in the eighties, we imported our economic policy from Austria.

    This was meant to ensure that the individual avoided the Road to Serfdom.

    Bit ironic given our current circumstances ; though those of us who saw through Thatcher didn't really expect anything else.
     
  8. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    UK coal production in the 1980s was c 100 million tonnes. Last year we used less than 15 million (of which about 4 million was produced domestically). Coal is, largely, dead.
    It would have been the height of hypocrisy for us to say that Iceland couldn't have a 200 mile EEZ, while at the same time trying to enforce the same around (for example) The Falklands.
     
  9. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    It is nonsense to suggest that every country should be self sufficient in everything. That means no scope for international trade.

    Why draw lines at national borders? You could argue it is wrong for a company in the south of England to import stuff from the north of England, when the south could do it by itself.
     
  10. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Let's be blunt, we, the British Isles are a small collection of landmasses on the edge of the continent of Europe. Now it is true that for several hundred years, we somehow managed to grow an empire from this, but those days are now long gone. So now whilst we still have a globally important economy, we are not the centre of a world that is rapidly changing, a world where globalisation, rightly or wrongly is a reality. Once you focus on this, it is not so difficult to understand why countries with far more wealth, more resources and frankly more people can so easily buy out our industries. The Empire is gone, and it won't ever be coming back.
     
  11. Bertie the bus

    Bertie the bus Established Member

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    A lot of it is incompetence and political cowardice rather than a deliberate anti-British agenda. Just look at the mess we’ve got ourselves into regarding electricity generation. Caving in to a tiny number of environmentalists and at the same time dithering on coal’s replacement meaning we can’t even light our own homes without importing electricity. Pathetic really.
     
  12. 433N

    433N Member

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    Could say the same about Spain but they can still make trains. ;)
     
  13. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    Is it even meaningful to describe a company as British (or American or whatever)? Especially when you are talking about listed companies. I could go online to my brokerage account now and buy shares in Coca-Cola. Would that make Coca-Cola part British?
     
  14. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    This is true, I will concede! However Spain is still at least remotely interested in engineering, whereas it seems the UK only aspires to be middle management... ;)
     
  15. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    They have a larger market than we do.
     
  16. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    In what way have they "caved to a tiny number of environmentalists"?
     
  17. cactustwirly

    cactustwirly Established Member

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    Not really Spanish railways are broad gauge, and there is limited worldwide appeal for broad gauge trains
     
  18. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    Norway produces a huge amount of hydroelectric power, way more than what its small population needs. Is it better for neighbouring countries to import Norway's excess power, or should they burn coal within national boundaries?
     
  19. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Change the bogies and the market expands considerably.
     
  20. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    I don't know a lot about this subject, but here goes:

    (I'm fairly sure) we get trains built overseas and brought over here because they can be built to a better standard and cheaper in other countries.
    We are getting so many new trains in the next couple of years that I'm fairly sure with the now limited (compared to the "good old days" of Swindon and the like) number of manufacturing plants for trains we have building all of them over here would be very difficult.

    I can say for a fact that CrossCountry and Chiltern Railways are both owned by Arriva, which are in turn owned by DB Schenker - a foreign company.
    Isn't Greater Anglia owned partially by a Japanese business?
    Transport For London is owned by a company in Hong Kong (or they at least have a lot of financial involvement I think).

    As much as I like being patriotic, I think I'll have to draw the line at the whole "We are losing our British identity!" argument. We are still British - all because the way we do certain things is changing doesn't mean we aren't British and we don't live in the UK. Please stop with the argument of "We need to build things in Britain!". Where would we build them? We have a lot of depots, yes, but they are for storing trains, and with the closure of Swindon and the like we are not going to be able to fulfil the required amounts of trains which need to be built. Yes, we can say "Open up new places!" but that's not easy! Try opening Swindon works again - the McArthur Glen shopping centre and the STEAM museum now take up the old works, and moving them is not possible.

    If, at the end of the day, having our trains, buses, and other services worked by foreign companies, means that we can have a stable economy and therefore have a country which can provide what it needs for its people and the people of the country will be happy we should go with that. I don't care that the Chiltern train I got yesterday was owned by an overseas company! I still got to where I wanted to go and back and it was a good journey. If British companies and products are actually as good as people make them out to be, why do we keep outsourcing too other countries?

    -Peter
     
  21. mmh

    mmh Established Member

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    I find it bemusing that the people who claim local manufacturing belongs in the past are often the same people who claim we need to stop international travel to save the planet.

    Your battery powered train or car is hardly environmentally friendly if it's travelled thousands of miles on a ship, surely.
     
  22. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    And don't forget the factories throwing out CO2 in the process of making them! :)

    -Peter
     
  23. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    It can be - the fuel used in 5,000 miles being shipped is nothing compared to the fuel saved in 100,000+ miles of use.
     
  24. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    Suggest the OP reads a few books on macro economics and international trade.
     
  25. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Ah, yes. Unlike those conventional cars that are manufactured with zero CO2 emissions.
     
  26. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    That's not what I said.
    @mmh said:
    And I was giving another reason for why these battery powered cars and trains are hardly environmentally friendly. I probably should have said something about normal cars as well - just to avoid confusion with what I thought was a simple statement.

    -Peter
     
  27. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    Where does the electricity used to power electric cars come from?
    https://assets.publishing.service.g...ads/attachment_data/file/822304/Chapter_6.pdf is quoted on Wikipedia:
    Only 4.6% of total transport energy is renewable and green. Yes, whilst 27.9% of total electricity may be green, less than 5% of green energy is for transport.

    Buying an electric car, getting it shipped over here, and then using it by charging it from areas which get most of their electricity from non-renewable methods - yes, that's alright, isn't it?

    -Peter
     
  28. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Yes. You're right. Clearly it's better to use a car with an internal combustion engine. Because, as we all know, there is no new renewable capacity being added to the mix.

    And, of course, ICEs generate less CO2 per unit energy than large thermal power plants.
     
  29. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    There is renewable energy "being added to the mix", but it will be a while before it is fully renewable, and I stand by my point.

    -Peter
     
  30. SS4

    SS4 Established Member

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    Not on purpose but they are pro-capital and especially for those who already have a large amount of money. Combine this with relatively short periods in office and you see the actions of the government make more sense. If those are pro-British so be it, if they are anti-British then that's just as fine. They don't care about the planet so why do you think they care about Britain?

    National Pride is a vague and nebulous term used by those who wish to justify the transfer of wealth to the richest in society. It is the same the world over - don't think in terms of British or foreign but instead about rich and poor. A poor person in the UK has more in common with a poor person throughout Western Europe than with a rich person in their own country.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 31 Aug 2019
  31. UP13

    UP13 Member

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    You more of a Chicago School kind of guy?
     

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