Are Class 700’s really that bad?

[bramling]

It's bamboozles me that a nearly 27 year old train running on a similar design as the much despised Networkers can achieve such nostalgic rose tinted glasses love?
I'm sure the 700s have massively increased capacity, reliability (of rolling stock), added air con and shortened journey times compared to the 365s and old users still want them back. I mean they were alright back in the day but their day was 20+ years ago

Reality is a 700 offers little over a 365, but with a number of significant disadvantages.

Apart from air conditioning, what does a 700 offer? By 2016 365s were fairly solid 8-cars minimum on the GN outer suburban services (the stopping services were the exception), so capacity gain is less of an issue, and certainly isn’t post Covid at the moment, and won’t be again if some people on here are right.

By contrast poorer legroom, less comfortable seats, lack of tables and the ambience of a Travelodge bathroom are significant negatives. The 700s also lack some of the features found on other newer trains, such as plug sockets.

Something like a 387 would be more likely to help attract people back, even more so something more comfortable like a Southeastern interior Electrostar with the comfortable Compin seats.

A 700 is fine if you’re a St Albans to London commuter who is happy to simply be able to board the train, for a journey which is barely 20 minutes. If you travel from Huntingdon or Royston they don’t offer an attractive travel experience, especially in Standard.

 

[JonathanH]

Thameslink is now competing as the dirty uncomfortable Travelodge-type travel option but without bargain basement prices.

Thameslink offers some of the cheapest off peak fares anywhere in the South East, particularly at weekends.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A 700 is a box with doors at thirds and (rather big) windows. It doesn't ride like a cart, nor does it smell of toilets, nor does the aircon fail on a mild Spring day.

Thus this is all about the "soft product" - the seats, flooring and lighting, mostly. None of those are particularly hard to fix, and all have been replaced on various refurbs over the years.

An easy and fairly cheap "quick fix" would be to replace the seat bases with the contoured type used on the same seats by Northern and ScotRail. I also find the deeper seat colours used by SWT and Southeastern on essentially the same units to give a more warm and welcoming feel.

 

[PeterY]

I hate the seating as well for anything more than short journeys. Because the seats are so close to the wall AND the heating duct so intrusive, the window passengers sprawl into the aisle seat, meaning the aisle passengers sprawl uncomfortably into the unnecessarily wide aisle.

The seats are ironing boards and the legroom not great either

I love the ambience of the inside of the 700's, light and airy but those seats , it like sitting on a wooden church pew.

 

[Bishopstone]

The biggest plus of the 700s is the fixed formation. If they’d been built as 4-car multiple units, then that’s all you’d be getting on many Brighton-Bedford/Cambridge services (etc), post-pandemic: 4 cars per service. There would have been a big cascade of ‘surplus’ Thameslink stock in the offing, by now… but they can’t!

Otherwise, they have become very reliable, and feel robustly built. I find the Standard seating to be quite comfortable, though lacking in kneeroom if you fail to choose your seat carefully. Just nab a priority seat.

The lack of seatback tables on the earlier builds was unforgivable, and - I recall - borne of some nonsense about dwell times in the core being elongated if the railway industry encouraged commuters to buy coffee by providing tables for them to rest the cups upon.

And they should have been built with WiFi, which was definitely a thing by 2015.

Fundamentally, a decent product.

 

[Jim the Jim]

The lack of padding isn't too much of a problem travelling into London for leisure late morning or afternoon. On the last leg of a long journey home late in the evening, though, it really isn't what you want.

 

[RichJF]

They're fine for journeys like East Croydon - West Hampstead Thameslink type distance through the core.

Anything longer & they're uncomfortable, spartan, harsh interior/lighting and unfriendly. Personally I miss the days of having 377/387s on Thameslink.

 

[Craig1122]

With regards the seat spacing I believe there was some modelling done (sorry can't remember where) that the best layout for capacity is as per the SWT 458's. These have 2+2 seating but with spaces between the seats and decent legroom. What this means in practice is that people tend to sit straight in the seat rather than sideways as someone has noted in a previous post. In turn this means you don't get one person blocking two seats or sticking their legs out onto the aisle as much.

Have to say I much prefer the design with a spacer (also used on their 455 but legroom isn't so good). It makes sharing space next to a stranger much more palatable but still leaves a wider aisle than 3+2 seating so more standing/circulation space.

 

[43066]

A 700 is fine if you’re a St Albans to London commuter who is happy to simply be able to board the train, for a journey which is barely 20 minutes. If you travel from Huntingdon or Royston they don’t offer an attractive travel experience, especially in Standard.

I agree with this. I find the seats fine but I am usually on them for a 10ish minute journey through the core. They certainly aren’t adequate for full end to end journeys on most of the Thameslink routes, but I suppose very, very few people make these regularly.

It’s amazing how tired the insides of the 700s are looking already when you consider that the oldest units are just past their fifth anniversary in service. It really is a dreadfully uninspiring “grey and dirt” colour scheme internally, which I’ve heard likened to a hospital ward and mortuary more than once. The outsides looked sharp when brand new but also now seem to be acquiring a layer of ingrained dirt around the vehicle ends, so also increasingly grey and dirt!

Quite a contrast with the SE 707s which, for an almost identical train, I must say look fantastic both inside and out due to the smashing SE blue exterior perfectly complimenting the retained SWR colouring internally.

 

[387star]

Siemens makes good trains they are we'll built and reliable and great to drive.

They have very good overhead storage and large windows. First class is actually really nice to travel in but the standard class seats are awful- mostly due to no tables (on most units) no WiFi (on most units) poor legroom and the heating duct intrusion mentioned countless times. They were a disgrace from a comfort point of view In standard at a time when it was assumed there would always be that commuter market...
If they fit WiFi and tables to all sets and at the very least improve the seat comfort then they would be perfect.

 

[Craig1122]

I agree with this. I find the seats fine but I am usually on them for a 10ish minute journey through the core. They certainly aren’t adequate for full end to end journeys on most of the Thameslink routes, but I suppose very, very few people make these regularly.

It’s amazing how tired the insides of the 700s are looking already when you consider that the oldest units are just past their fifth anniversary in service. It really is a dreadfully uninspiring “grey and dirt” colour scheme internally, which I’ve heard likened to a hospital ward and mortuary more than once. The outsides looked sharp when brand new but also now seem to be acquiring a layer of ingrained dirt around the vehicle ends, so also increasingly grey and dirt!

Quite a contrast with the SE 707s which, for an almost identical train, I must say look fantastic both inside and out due to the smashing SE blue exterior perfectly complimenting the retained SWR colouring internally.

If I recall correctly Ann Gloag was personally involved with the red being chosen back in early SWT days, over ruling people who were in favour of greys as they don't show the dirt. Of course SWR land is now turgid blues & greys, with many of the refurbished seats on the desiro fleet already looking more tired than the red they replaced.

 

[driverd]

I will happily let a 700 go at East Croydon and wait for a Southern service if travelling southbound. A 377 is vastly preferable to me, not just because of comfort, but mainly because they actually have a bit of colour and not dentist surgery white and sterilised blue.

Perfect summary. I actively avoid 700s wherever possible because they're simply awful places to be. I recently travelled Gatwick to Cambridge and the prospect of 2 hours on one made me want to stay in the uncomfortable easyjet cabin from which I was checking my train times.

They're fine for journeys like East Croydon - West Hampstead Thameslink type distance through the core.

Anything longer & they're uncomfortable, spartan, harsh interior/lighting and unfriendly. Personally I miss the days of having 377/387s on Thameslink.

Absolutely this. They're lovely as a tube train or 10 minute commuter run. Beyond this, they're horrendous. There's been the arguement 10 times over about how great they are, but for me, often travelling St Pancras to Gatwick/Three Bridges, I desperately miss the 377/387s - the 700s are an almighty step backwards.

My personal list of dislikes is lengthy, but key features would be a mediocre ride quality, spartan, soulless interior (that often gets dirty and looks grimy), uncomfortable seating (that seems designed to make you want to leave the train after 10 or so minutes) and so forth.

Stand out positives would be the PIS. It's actually pretty good to be fair.

 

[cactustwirly]

Reality is a 700 offers little over a 365, but with a number of significant disadvantages.

Apart from air conditioning, what does a 700 offer? By 2016 365s were fairly solid 8-cars minimum on the GN outer suburban services (the stopping services were the exception), so capacity gain is less of an issue, and certainly isn’t post Covid at the moment, and won’t be again if some people on here are right.

By contrast poorer legroom, less comfortable seats, lack of tables and the ambience of a Travelodge bathroom are significant negatives. The 700s also lack some of the features found on other newer trains, such as plug sockets.

Something like a 387 would be more likely to help attract people back, even more so something more comfortable like a Southeastern interior Electrostar with the comfortable Compin seats.

A 700 is fine if you’re a St Albans to London commuter who is happy to simply be able to board the train, for a journey which is barely 20 minutes. If you travel from Huntingdon or Royston they don’t offer an attractive travel experience, especially in Standard.

700s are vastly better than the class 345s, I wouldn't be complaining it could be much worse.
They are very unpleasant to travel on, mostly hard transverse seats and the facing seats are rock hard, much worse than the Fainsa seating in the 700s.
I would rather travel on a 3 car 165 than a 345 not joking. Thankfully there is still the semi fast GWR service, with 387s. Without that then I would definitely drive to Uxbridge, Hounslow or High Wycombe

 

[philthetube]

Any revolution has gone well and truly sour thanks to Covid. Indeed the 700s may well be a more significant problem for a railway which suddenly finds itself needing to compete to attract every single user.

Something like a 365, especially in their original form, could hold their own competing against modern cars, and indeed have a proven track record in doing so with passenger numbers skyrocketing. Thameslink is now competing as the dirty uncomfortable Travelodge-type travel option but without bargain basement prices.

Because the vast majority of journeys are going to be to London Brighton or Cambridge car will not be an issue for most passengers, this is not to excuse the flaws mentioned above.

 

[bramling]

Because the vast majority of journeys are going to be to London Brighton or Cambridge car will not be an issue for most passengers, this is not to excuse the flaws mentioned above.

If one takes a typical journey like Letchworth to London. On a 365 in original form you’d get a comfortable seat, carpet and table. A relaxing journey to gaze out the window, or perhaps get on with some work. Apart from sitting over a motor bogie, the train was pretty much silent. First class was quite special.

On a 700 you might get elements of this experience if fortunate enough to get a seat in first. Simply by numbers this won’t be available to most. Even in first you get a clinical atmosphere with harsh lighting (unless the driver has been kind enough to change it to standby mode, as a few do), funny plastic smell which seems to come from the floor, and noise which seems to transmit through the train. In standard the experience is very much worse.

This sort of ambience simply isn’t going to compete against a BMW or Audi, which is now the railway’s competition.

 

[387star]

If one takes a typical journey like Letchworth to London. On a 365 in original form you’d get a comfortable seat, carpet and table. A relaxing journey to gaze out the window, or perhaps get on with some work. Apart from sitting over a motor bogie, the train was pretty much silent. First class was quite special.

On a 700 you might get elements of this experience if fortunate enough to get a seat in first. Simply by numbers this won’t be available to most. Even in first you get a clinical atmosphere with harsh lighting (unless the driver has been kind enough to change it to standby mode, as a few do), funny plastic smell which seems to come from the floor, and noise which seems to transmit through the train. In standard the experience is very much worse.

This sort of ambience simply isn’t going to compete against a BMW or Audi, which is now the railway’s competition.

I always set it to standby

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I raised with my local MP in 2019 when the rest of the units were going to be retrofitted with wi-fi and seat back tables. He got a response out of DofT who said they will be done in due course but it was difficult currently to release units. Well three years on the units aren't anywhere as intensively diagrammed but of course now they will cite they have no money.

 

[Fincra5]

IMO, they're should have been 2 Spec's (but the DfT like cheap), harking back to the older days of TL... Metro and Flyer.

Metro would be like it is now but without 1st Class... (but perhaps plugs and wifi). The Flyer should be more 387ish throughout, Arm Rests, Seat back Tables, little tables in the facing standard seats, Plugs, Wifi, 1st Class areas.

So 8 Cars "Metro" and 12's being "Flyer".

There are some things they do well, especially from a Driving Side but for passengers they're a bit of a letdown. I suppose the issue comes from the hybrid style there were going for of Outer and Inner Suburban... the big issue is most commuters have a Coffee/Tea, bite to Eat and probably a laptop but there's no where for it...

 

[Horizon22]

I really don't get the issue with the 700's. I think they are great trains that have made a massive difference. And most of the time I've heard non-enthusuasts talk about Thameslink trains, I've heard them say how they are the best trains they've been on.

I've had the same feeling with non-enthusiats; while I don't mind 700s that much, I can appreciate they have their flaws for a long-distance service, but lots of friends/family I've travelled with have remarked about how clean, spacious and informative the displays are without me even prompting them about it. Indeed, I often have to try and play devil's advocate!

The seats are OK for me (I don't have issues with 80x either, so maybe I'm weirdly shaped!), but they are similar seats to other modern stock. The lack of a flip-up table was a silly oversight, as was the lack of charging facilities which frankly should have been in the tender as tech was only going one way. Overall - much like 345s - they were built to swallow passengers in the core at the expense of those travelling from Brighton or Bedford for 1hr+. Such is the issue when one type of stock is taking on the role of two styles of transport.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

Funny that I'd love to do a long fast run on an EPB up the ECML, but I wouldn't like to do the same run on a 700, the seats are too hard and the ambience is like the cells at the magistrates court.

 

[driverd]

I've had the same feeling with non-enthusiats; while I don't mind 700s that much, I can appreciate they have their flaws for a long-distance service, but lots of friends/family I've travelled with have remarked about how clean, spacious and informative the displays are without me even prompting them about it. Indeed, I often have to try and play devil's advocate!

In fairness, I think they're one of the few trains that the general public loves to moan about - perhaps sharing a special place with Pacers. There's numerous news articles that can be found with a Google search, outside of the rail press, that highlight a lot of the issues often brought up in this forum. In particular is the lack of tables and inability to do work on the trains.

Certainly, amongst my friends (majority of which are non-enthusiasts), when you mention taking the Thameslink train, it's met with groans and comments on how awful the trains are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In fairness, I think they're one of the few trains that the general public loves to moan about - perhaps sharing a special place with Pacers. There's numerous news articles that can be found with a Google search, outside of the rail press, that highlight a lot of the issues often brought up in this forum. In particular is the lack of tables and inability to do work on the trains.

Certainly, amongst my friends (majority of which are non-enthusiasts), when you mention taking the Thameslink train, it's met with groans and comments on how awful the trains are.

I genuinely wonder what those same people would think of the 720, which is far more cramped and has far harder seats. I suspect Thameslink is just fairly well known and impacts a lot of people, while 720s only run on Greater Anglia and so are quite hidden away for most people.

I think Bombardier's 3+2 seated finest will be villified very quickly when they start showing up on the south WCML. Yes, we have 350/2s, but they are worse than those in most ways.

700s have the ambiance of a prison cell, but the most important things to me, seat comfort and spacing, are objectively better (if still not great). The 700 is a fairly mediocre but acceptable unit to me. The 720 is a polished turd.

 

[richa2002]

700s just about made sense pre-COVID as rush hour people movers in light of a population that had been allowed to increase by six figures every year for many years previous. How we went from mostly 8 car trains with a few 4 cars during the rush hour on Thameslink to needing numerous 12 cars and a higher capacity layout more focussed on standing is mind boggling. All for the sake of cheap unskilled labour (usually the most useful labour mind...) which apparently is only suitable for foreigners. Whilst hundreds and thousands of supposedly higher skilled people trudge into work every day doing non-jobs that could disappear tomorrow and no-one would notice.

Post-COVID however, they are white elephants and far too austere. The declassified first class at the rear is their only saving grace and pretty much essential for any journey that goes beyond London if you want anything approaching a half decent environment. Even then, as soon as you feel tired, the seats are useless to slump and relax in.

I know many like to say that comfort is subjective and yes, it is to a degree, but when was the last time you saw a car with seats similar to a Class 700? Never. Funny how the driver's seat in a 700 is miles more comfortable too...

 

[SolomonSouth]

It's bamboozles me that a nearly 27 year old train running on a similar design as the much despised Networkers can achieve such nostalgic rose tinted glasses love?
I'm sure the 700s have massively increased capacity, reliability (of rolling stock), added air con and shortened journey times compared to the 365s and old users still want them back. I mean they were alright back in the day but their day was 20+ years ago

The 700s are not more reliable than 365s were - 365s were consistently around 30000 miles between failures vs 20000 for the 700. New trains as a whole are a bit of a joke on the reliability front compared to 90s and '00s designs.

 

[43066]

The 700s are not more reliable than 365s were - 365s were consistently around 30000 miles between failures vs 20000 for the 700. New trains as a whole are a bit of a joke on the reliability front compared to 90s and '00s designs.

Is that comparing like with like given the “unusual” 700 fault distance recording given their long fixed formations?

I was going to ask whether anyone knew the latest 700 reliability stats? They certainly seem to have come on leaps and bounds since the “if you can’t release the doors at Orpington, drive it to Petts Wood and it should be possible to do it there ” carnage of 2018…

 

[387star]

Haha reminds me of driving one where the emergency brakes kept kicking in. Not good for blood pressure and wasn't impressed to later find out they were fully aware of the fault!
Also the runaway train emergency brake was common when they were new if you forgot to select the right mode

Is that comparing like with like given the “unusual” 700 fault distance recording given their long fixed formations?

I was going to ask whether anyone knew the latest 700 reliability stats? They certainly seem to have come on leaps and bounds since the “if you can’t release the doors at Orpington, drive it to Petts Wood and it should be possible to do it there ” carnage of 2018…

 

[Bald Rick]

Not this again, although thanks to the OP for starting from a different position than normal on the subject!

They are fine. A couple of issues - seat pitch a fraction to short in airline format for taller people, and too much first class. But otherwise great.

And yes, I do largely use them for 30 minute trips from St Albans to London, but I also use them for regular trips from St Albans to Gatwick and Brighton, and I don’t have any problem with the seats in Standard on that journey.

Finally - re the “white elephant” comment about the high capacity layout - every square centimetre of that layout was needed this morning. Trains are now very busy at peak times.

 

[Milo T.K]

The seating layout is suitable only for age 12 and below. It's basically pretty much the same as a 3+2 schoolkid road coach.

It is without doubt the least comfortable train I have ever had the misfortune to use.

It looks similar to the 350/2, but the extra 10cm or so of interior width on the 350/2 makes a massive difference.

Also, despite the ironing board having bad press, the Kiel seats on the 720 are harder.

There's a specific thread to discuss just how bad it is: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/quick-mercifully-ride-on-a-class-720.229695/

The seats are comfy on the 720s, though the seats are getting more and more comfy as they are being more used. I think the 720 is one of the best trains to come into service recently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seats are comfy on the 720s, though the seats are getting more and more comfy as they are being more used. I think the 720 is one of the best trains to come into service recently.

What is your view on the ironing boards in 700s? The 720 seats are both harder and narrower.

 

[physics34]

Am i forced to put my two-penneth in again. ? Lol

They are virtually perfect for Tulse Hill to Farringdon... they are a disgrace for Hassocks to Blackfriars.