Are diesel powered or electric powered trains cheaper to run?

[jayah]

The more we electrify, the cleaner the air will be, resulting in a little less pressure on our beloved NHS due to less respiratory and othet problems.
I work out of Nottingham, and the atmosphere from all the diesels that use the station is nothing short of foul.

I am at practically at a loss for words suffice to say that I am tempted to suggest replacing a coal burner with burning old paper notes would probably do more for air quality.

Of course had e-voyager gone ahead the problem would have been solved but the electrification brigade insist you must NOT run diesel engines under wires - so you can't have electric trains until every inch is wired from Nottingham to St Pancras.

Seriously the damage done by cars and lorries is many times greater and vastly cheaper to deal with.

 

[JamesRowden]

Electrification (of busy enough routes) makes money long term. Spending a huge amount of money to keep someone alive a few more years doesn't.

 

[jayah]

I want the national debt problem solved by raising income tax by 5-10% for everyone. People don't need much to be happy, they just need to change their attitude.

Kim Jong II said while starving North Korea "let's eat two meals a day".

People don't need food, they just need realistic expectations eh?

 

[JamesRowden]

Kim Jong II said while starving North Korea "let's eat two meals a day".

People don't need food, they just need realistic expectations eh?

Best joke I've heard all week (unless you're being serious of cause).

 

[jayah]

Electrification (of busy enough routes) makes money long term. Spending a huge amount of money to keep someone alive a few more years doesn't.

As I have explained it doesn't make money short term, medium term or long term.

The only way it makes money is if you forget about the vast sums of money you lost and count only on the gains.

Did you know the boss of Bet365 earned £217m last year? There must be a reason for that!

 

[JamesRowden]

One can get all of the essentials in life plus more by getting a minimum wage 40 hours per week job in one of the cheaper towns in this country.

 

[jayah]

Best joke I've heard all week (unless you're being serious of cause).

I am not the one suggesting people should stop aspiring to be better off. Your post seem to be very much of the same mindset.

Can you name an example of where the tax take has been raised 10% that hasn't resulted in economic disaster?

The quote is absolutely true if you didn't know.

 

[jayah]

One can get all of the essentials in life plus more by getting a minimum wage 40 hours per week job in one of the cheaper towns in this country.

You won't pay for world class healthcare, transport and a space program on the back of a Wigan Pier economy.

The debt crisis needs solving and won't be by spending £bn on electric wires that deliver negligible benefit to anyone.

 

[JamesRowden]

I am not the one suggesting people should stop aspiring to be better off. Your post seem to be very much of the same mindset.

Can you name an example of where the tax take has been raised 10% that hasn't resulted in economic disaster?

The quote is absolutely true if you didn't know.

People should aspire to be better off both as an individual and as a country.

 

[jayah]

One can get all of the essentials in life plus more by getting a minimum wage 40 hours per week job in one of the cheaper towns in this country.

If Jeremy Corbyn gets elected following a no confidence vote in 2018, you should become his speechwriter following the economic carnage that will follow.

It doesn't matter that the pound in you pocket is worth sweet F.A because you only needed 20p to start with.

 

[jayah]

People should aspire to be better off both as an individual and as a country.

That is the complete opposite of what you said 10mins earlier when you said they need to change attitude.

You want to make them worse off raising their taxes to pay for wires that bring virtually no benefit.

 

[JamesRowden]

You won't pay for world class healthcare, transport and a space program on the back of a Wigan Pier economy.

The debt crisis needs solving and won't be by spending £bn on electric wires that deliver negligible benefit to anyone.

Provide some numbers from reliable sources for how much, for example, it would cost to electrify the Midland Mainline and how great subsequent savings and benefits produced by the investment would be. Otherwise I can't take you seriously and this will continue to be a funny game to me.

 

[JamesRowden]

If Jeremy Corbyn gets elected following a no confidence vote in 2018, you should become his speechwriter following the economic carnage that will follow.

It doesn't matter that the pound in you pocket is worth sweet F.A because you only needed 20p to start with.

I disagree with Corbyn since he wants only the rich to pay more while I want everyone to pay more.

 

[jayah]

All my university notes are currently buried in the loft, but I seem to remember an example relating to this as to why each house doesn't have its own generator and we have power stations instead... Whilst the same amount of energy in kWh is used, generation and transmission from the power station is more efficient, delivering more kW/ton of raw fuel.

You also seem to be forgetting that when up to speed (and in your words ) an electric train can simply stop sipping the juice (and when going downhill even backfeed into the grid under breaking)... When a diesel engine idles it's still drinking away at that fuel (note the sudden eruption in stop-start car technology a couple of years ago for the effect that discovery had on the car industry- the major selling point being fuel savings).

This is on top of the National Grid having Renewable Sources including Wind, Solar, and Biomass- reducing the amount of CO2.

This 'more efficient' lark again.
The whole UK rail industry uses about £70m of diesel a year.
Electrifying one main line is heading for £4bn.

New windows £10k.
Gas bill -15%.
Deal or no deal?

 

[jayah]

Provide some numbers from reliable sources for how much, for example, it would cost to electrify the Midland Mainline and how great subsequent savings and benefits produced by the investment would be. Otherwise I can't take you seriously and this will continue to be a funny game to me.

Why on earth should I when have already given the cost of GWEP a dozen times.

I have also using the Network Rail figures above explained to you why the savings are around 10% of the required payback.

If that doesn't work for you look at the GWEP business case and put the actual not projected capital costs in. It barely got a BCR of 2 costing £800m.

 

[JamesRowden]

That is the complete opposite of what you said 10mins earlier when you said they need to change attitude.

You want to make them worse off raising their taxes to pay for wires that bring virtually no benefit.

One needs a fundamental goal in life to be as successful as possible. If the rules of the game change then the definition of success does too. Just strive to be as good as you can be. And I see being part of a nation as being part of a team.

Until you provide some real numerical evidence I can't take your conclusion for the business case of electrification seriously.

 

[jayah]

I disagree with Corbyn since he wants only the rich to pay more while I want everyone to pay more.

I don't think even Nigel Farage is that far to the right? You must by that logic think the Poll Tax was a good idea, except perhaps it should have been dearer?

 

[jayah]

One needs a fundamental goal in life to be as successful as possible. If the rules of the game change then the definition of success does too. Just strive to be as good as you can be. And I see being part of a nation as being part of a team.

Until you provide some real numerical evidence I can't take your conclusion for the business case of electrification seriously.

When you have read the business case for GWEP come back to me.

 

[JamesRowden]

Why on earth should I when have already given the cost of GWEP a dozen times.

I have also using the Network Rail figures above explained to you why the savings are around 10% of the required payback.

If that doesn't work for you look at the GWEP business case and put the actual not projected capital costs in. It barely got a BCR of 2 costing £800m.

Numerise all savings and benefits of both the people payed to do the work and the effect of the infrastructure over the next 100 years.

Also consider that the GWEP was not done in an efficient way.

 

[JamesRowden]

When you have read the business case for GWEP come back to me.

You're the one making the claim that electrification is futile in all circumstances. I am using the fact that many lines have been and are being electrified as evidence that experts (which you definitely are not) came to the conclusion that there was/is a business case.

 

[Mordac]

This thread has really taken a turn for the bizarre. I've very rarely seen a political discussion where I couldn't side with either participant for completely different reasons. Of course, the thread topic is long forgotten....

 

[JamesRowden]

When you have read the business case for GWEP come back to me.

If we don't pay for services we don't get services. There is a non-linear relationship between income and the benefits.

This thread has really taken a turn for the bizarre. I've very rarely seen a political discussion where I couldn't side with either participant for completely different reasons. Of course, the thread topic is long forgotten....

Hope you enjoyed the show

 

[JamesRowden]

And that's the end of the JR windup an irrational poster show!

 

[edwin_m]

I dare say in Tanzania it is even cheaper.

Note that as with GWEP we aren't talking about something that has been seen, delivered and proved, just wild speculation based on unproven technology, delivery in 2026, this time allowing 100m gaps between masts and downsizing the structures which is exactly why everyone seems to think the ECML job was done in the cheap.

Have we fallen for all this before?

From the magazine in question (Modern Railways November 2017, page 39):

order placed May 2015 and 121km already live. ... The system in Denmark is not some cheap trolley wire either: it is built for 250km/h and is specified, unbelievably, to take five pantographs at that speed. The adopted off the shelf system ... enables span lengths of up to 101m to be achieved.

I don't think anyone on here is suggesting that we should be signing off more electrification if it is to cost as much as GWEP. But I'm suggesting that it really shouldn't be costing that much.

 

[Kneedown]

Of course had e-voyager gone ahead the problem would have been solved but the electrification brigade insist you must NOT run diesel engines under wires - so you can't have electric trains until every inch is wired from Nottingham to St Pancras.

It was never on the cards to wire every inch of the MML. Corby to Syston, Erewash Valley and Chesterfield - Sheffield via Beighton were to remain unwired, so bi-modes were always going to be on the cards. The problem is the bi-mode concept is designed to spend the majority of the time under the wires with short(ish) spells on diesel. The opposite is now the case on the MML with a minority of the journey spent on electric. This negates the advantages. At the very least they should have pressed on to Derby and Nottingham.

 

[43096]

Funny really. Mods on here are quick to crack down on the merest hint of things going off-topic, except this thread where we have reams of political nonsense left to run and run...

 

[43096]

For those who think lugging diesel engines around under electric trains is the future, this provides plenty of evidence to the contrary, and from an authoritative source.

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...trification-in-south-wales/written/73604.html

 

[D365]

For those who think lugging diesel engines around under electric trains is the future, this provides plenty of evidence to the contrary, and from an authoritative source.

I don't think that any (well, most) forum members believe that bi-modes are a long term solution.