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Are fares in London subsidised by the North?

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LucyP

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And people living in London moan too much. London is subsidised by the North. The limit on an Oster card off-peak for a whole day is £7.20. That is the same price as a single train journey from Pannal, on the outskirts of Harrogate to Leeds. A journey that takes 30 minutes. If you go out (in non-Corona times) on a Saturday night in London, at 23:50 you might have to wait 5 minutes for a Tube. In the North, the next public transport will be in 9 hours time.
 
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Horizon22

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And people living in London moan too much. London is subsidised by the North. The limit on an Oster card off-peak for a whole day is £7.20. That is the same price as a single train journey from Pannal, on the outskirts of Harrogate to Leeds. A journey that takes 30 minutes. If you go out (in non-Corona times) on a Saturday night in London, at 23:50 you might have to wait 5 minutes for a Tube. In the North, the next public transport will be in 9 hours time.

Actually London is the biggest net tax contributor to other regions and subsidises other public transport. The recent it runs at that frequency (pre-Covid) is because it was used. Public transport funding does sometimes have the "chicken-and-egg-conundrum" (is it used because its cheap or vice-versa), but public transport is known to be more successful in dense, urban areas.
Source: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-grows-to-more-than-10bn-as-people-spend-less
 

Railwaysceptic

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And people living in London moan too much. London is subsidised by the North.
A provocative assertion devoid of both logic and justification. This forum is full of threads with posters complaining about rail transport in their neck of the woods. There are very few threads with Londoners complaining. I challenge you to put forward a rational, fact-based argument that London is subsidized by the North. While assembling your case, you might also explain why it is only the North that is subsidising London. The West Midlands, Wales, Devon and Cornwall, East Anglia: they all get off scot free, do they?
 

LucyP

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I just did! £7.20 all day, off-peak for public transport available every minute in London, versus £7.20 for one 30 minute off-peak rail journey in the North. That's a subsidy in London and none in the North for you!
 

JonathanH

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I just did! £7.20 all day, off-peak for public transport available every minute in London, versus £7.20 for one 30 minute off-peak rail journey in the North. That's a subsidy in London and none in the North for you!
£7.20 for travel in Central London - ie Zones 1 and 2. Certainly not 30 minutes out of London. It is £13.20 for an all day travelcard including Zones 1-6.
 
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MontyP

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And people living in London moan too much. London is subsidised by the North. The limit on an Oster card off-peak for a whole day is £7.20. That is the same price as a single train journey from Pannal, on the outskirts of Harrogate to Leeds. A journey that takes 30 minutes. If you go out (in non-Corona times) on a Saturday night in London, at 23:50 you might have to wait 5 minutes for a Tube. In the North, the next public transport will be in 9 hours time.

I think you need to ask how much demand there is for a service from Pannal to Leeds at 23:50 on a Saturday night.
 

Railwaysceptic

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I just did! £7.20 all day, off-peak for public transport available every minute in London, versus £7.20 for one 30 minute off-peak rail journey in the North. That's a subsidy in London and none in the North for you!
What utter nonsense! You're going to have to do better than that. The seemingly low fares in London are financed by the large cash surplus generated by London Underground, not by cash coming down from the north. Try again.
 

Taunton

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I think you need to ask how much demand there is for a service from Pannal to Leeds at 23:50 on a Saturday night.
DfT stats show Pannal averages 440 passengers a day. Given there are 70 departures a day, York one way, Leeds the other, that's ... 6 passengers per train. Last train to Leeds in normal times is 23.26. I wonder how many that carries.

What was that we were saying about needing subsidies? Northern were the highest-subsidised operator even back in 2014, when the subsidy from central government funds was 51p per passenger mile. That means the public subsidy for each 15 mile passenger trip to Leeds is £15 return ...
 
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cactustwirly

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And people living in London moan too much. London is subsidised by the North. The limit on an Oster card off-peak for a whole day is £7.20. That is the same price as a single train journey from Pannal, on the outskirts of Harrogate to Leeds. A journey that takes 30 minutes. If you go out (in non-Corona times) on a Saturday night in London, at 23:50 you might have to wait 5 minutes for a Tube. In the North, the next public transport will be in 9 hours time.

No TfL is self financing so the fares in the north have nothing to do with fares in London.
Fares from the home counties are significantly more expensive than your example.
The 25 minute journey from Reading to London is £50 for an anytime return.
 

30907

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A West Yorkshire DaySaver at £9 (or £8.10 train only) would be a better comparison - not from Pannal, of course.
 

sheff1

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No TfL is self financing

Yet have just received a government bailout of £1.8bn for 6 months and the free travel for Londoners over 60 has been protected.

In South Yorkshire, free travel for over 60s has long been withdrawn becuase it 'couldn't be afforded' and those who do qualify for a ENCTS senior pass do not get free travel on trains, unlike people of the same age in London.

In announcing the bailout the pathetic Grant Shapps said "... national taxpayers will not pay for benefits for Londoners that they do not get themselves elsewhere in the country.” I see no mention of my tax being reduced so that the cost of London-only benefits is only paid for by London taxpayers.
 
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Non Multi

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As we've found out the London model relies significantly on the revenue from commuters who live outside the capital and overseas tourists. Without their patronage it's literally broke.
 

MikeWh

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Yet have just received a bailout of £1.8bn for 6 months and the free travel for Londoners over 60 has been protected.

In South Yorkshire, free travel for over 60s has long been withdrawn becuase it 'couldn't be afforded' and those who do qualify for a ENCTS senior pass do not get free travel on trains, unlike people of the same age in London.

In announcing the bailout the pathetic Grant Shapps said "... national taxpayers will not pay for benefits for Londoners that they do not get themselves elsewhere in the country.” I see no mention of my tax being reduced so that the cost of London-only benefits is only paid for by London taxpayers.
Well every train operator is currently being bailed out by the government. The cost of the London Freedom Pass is paid for by the London Borough council tax payers. They don't currently get to use their cards before 9am, so all their free travel has not been protected. I'm not confident where the funding for the 60+ Oyster card comes from, but I do know that it was introduced by the current prime minister, though he probably won't thank me for reminding him of that.
 

sheff1

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They don't currently get to use their cards before 9am, so all their free travel has not been protected.

Existing free travel has been protected and communication about the government bailout specifically states that part of the bailout is to fund that protection. Said protection is for a benefit which is not provided in other parts of England.
 

matt_world2004

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And people living in London moan too much. London is subsidised by the North. The limit on an Oster card off-peak for a whole day is £7.20. That is the same price as a single train journey from Pannal, on the outskirts of Harrogate to Leeds. A journey that takes 30 minutes. If you go out (in non-Corona times) on a Saturday night in London, at 23:50 you might have to wait 5 minutes for a Tube. In the North, the next public transport will be in 9 hours time.
London subsidises the North if you look at the franchise subsidy for Northern rail and the franchise premiums for TOC's like SWR.

London has a incredibly high population density, which means trains are more full, rail assets are more heavily utilised. Due to the impracticalities of driving in London a higher percentage of Londoners use public transport (80%+ modal share in zones 1&2 for sustainable modes of transport iirc , Bus, trains, Cycles and Walking)
 

AM9

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Existing free travel has been protected and communication about the government bailout specifically states that part of the bailout is to fund that protection. Said protection is for a benefit which is not provided in other parts of England.
Have you ever travelled by rail around London. It doesn't seem like it to me from your posts.
 

matt_world2004

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Existing free travel has been protected and communication about the government bailout specifically states that part of the bailout is to fund that protection. Said protection is for a benefit which is not provided in other parts of England.
Incorrect the bailout has only agreed to fund tfl travel concessions under the ENCTS rules that is bus travel after 09:30 only. all other concessions have to be funded by London itself.
 

bb21

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This subject has been done to death and depending on your perspective any argument can be made to support either side. Please search the forum for previous discussions.
 
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