Are Heritage railways trying to have it both ways ?

[Justin Smith]

It cannot have escaped the notice of enthusiasts that more and more heritage lines are becoming more like businesses. Not just in their revenue generation but, less understandably, in their attitudes to the very enthusiasts who support them, and, without whom, they`d never have gotten off the ground. More and more are withdrawing photographers permits, indeed Nick Piggott in the Railway Magazine commented on this in the Feb 2019 edition, apparently the G&WR stated "the days of it being for hobbyists are gone". A Heritage line of which I was a member (until the last renewal....) has recently withdrawn access to their shed, even for members. When questioned about it they had to admit that, as far as they knew, in all the years the public had access to that shed nobody had ever been hurt, they certainly had not been sued. Anyway, even if the worst did come to the worst, the chances of them being sued by a member must be minute.
The fact is that Heritage lines are not pure businesses, they`re mainly run by volunteers and receive much of their funds, particularly for funding campaigns, from donations. So, to clarify, and complete the statement, “Heritage lines are not for hobbyists, unless they want their time and/or money”.
Does anyone know if membership of Heritage lines is decreasing ? To be frank I could understand it if it was.

 

[HaggisBotherer]

Here we go... (grabs popcorn and makes himself comfortable)

(My personal view - whether without enthusiasts preserved railways would never have 'gotten' (sic) off the ground or not is, in 2019, irrelevant. Preserved railways depend almost entirely on the revenue from non-enthusiasts to survive. It's a very different world now to what it was when many of these lines started and, in such a risk-averse environment as they currently exist in, what other option is there when one legal case with a clever barrister working on behalf of the plaintiff could conceivably close an entire railway down? A member might not sue a railway but, in the case of death or serious injury, their family might...)

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

A member might not sue a railway but, in the case of death or serious injury, their family might...)

Sadly so.

 

[underbank]

The world is very different and costs are far higher than ever. There may be price competition for domestic/household customers, but "business" costs are rising much faster as there aren't the comparison sites for business power, business insurance, business materials/supplies, etc. Wages are also increasing faster than inflation, particularly for those on minimum wage, plus workplace pensions, increases in employers NIC, etc.

Not only is there H&S which has replaced common sense and personal responsibility, but the regulators are also less willing to accept/over-look substandard practices. It's the same with tiny clubs and societies in all areas - we're getting very close to where professionals are needed to do everything, rather than muddling through with amateurs.

Sadly, letting "enthusiasts" roam around sheds doesn't bring in the money for the railway, nor does photo licences. Hence why railways are going in more for fine dining trains, "experiences" (driving, guards, signal box etc), Pepper Pig/Thomas days, Santa Specials etc - far more money/profit without the risk.

 

[reddragon]

A flavour of working on a Heritage Railway in 2019: -

As you'll be aware, recent events involving a number of Heritage Railways has attracted the formal attention of the ORR (Office of Rail and Road) who is the regulator for Britain's railways. As a result of this, we are given to believe that the ORR is looking to undertake an audit of the Compliance and Safety systems of a number of Heritage Railways during 2019, one of which will be us. Although we have not had official notification of such an audit we have been informed of their intent.This being the case, we should take the opportunity to ensure that all our documentation, risk assessments/working practices, training and competencies records etc. are in place and up to date. As with last year's independent ROGS Audit records were readily to hand to be provided as evidence and should we be visited by the ORR we do not want to be seen running around at the last minute trying to locate information.

We have moved from a 'hobby railway' to becoming a very successful business across the piece and expectations of the regulator have also moved on meaning that we have an increase in the amount of standards we are required to achieve as well as the underpinning legal safety and health legislation that we must adhere to. We know that many of you were (or are) very familiar with health and safety requirements as part of your working lives and that some of you had hoped to escape these in the pursuit of your hobby. Unfortunately in law all our volunteers as deemed as 'employees' and as such all relevant health and safety law applies to us to the same degree and to this end we still have some work to do in order to achieve this and to do so we need continued input and cooperation from yourselves.

 

[StoneRoad]

The days of being able to say "But we are only volunteers" as an excuse to avoid complying with any sort of regulations are, fortunately, long gone.

 

[Bevan Price]

At least - so far - heritage railways have not been compelled to turn their lines into linear prison camps, surrounded on both sides by high, ugly pallisade fences.....

I suspect that attitudes by insurance companies may have led the heritage movement to introduce new restrictions - e.g. : "unless you curtail lineside access, we will need to increase premiums, etc."

 

[Cowley]

A flavour of working on a Heritage Railway in 2019: -

As you'll be aware, recent events involving a number of Heritage Railways has attracted the formal attention of the ORR (Office of Rail and Road) who is the regulator for Britain's railways. As a result of this, we are given to believe that the ORR is looking to undertake an audit of the Compliance and Safety systems of a number of Heritage Railways during 2019, one of which will be us. Although we have not had official notification of such an audit we have been informed of their intent.This being the case, we should take the opportunity to ensure that all our documentation, risk assessments/working practices, training and competencies records etc. are in place and up to date. As with last year's independent ROGS Audit records were readily to hand to be provided as evidence and should we be visited by the ORR we do not want to be seen running around at the last minute trying to locate information.

We have moved from a 'hobby railway' to becoming a very successful business across the piece and expectations of the regulator have also moved on meaning that we have an increase in the amount of standards we are required to achieve as well as the underpinning legal safety and health legislation that we must adhere to. We know that many of you were (or are) very familiar with health and safety requirements as part of your working lives and that some of you had hoped to escape these in the pursuit of your hobby. Unfortunately in law all our volunteers as deemed as 'employees' and as such all relevant health and safety law applies to us to the same degree and to this end we still have some work to do in order to achieve this and to do so we need continued input and cooperation from yourselves.

Interesting.
The thing is, it's difficult to argue with what's been said there (this is not directed at you by the way Reddragon).
Long gone are the days of unbolting bits of 9F with asbestos blowing all around the place in a windswept Barry scrapyard...

Health and Safety is not a dirty expression. It's good working practice, and it makes us think twice before putting ourselves in danger, no matter what anyone says.
The amount of people that used to be seriously injured, or indeed killed through needless accidents forty years ago compared to now is something that probably isn't emphasised enough as a success story at times.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be strolling around the scrap line at Toton in 1987 cabbing withdrawn Peaks and Rats with nobody watching. But times move on.

Anyone coming into the heritage railway sector as a volunteer these days will understand the parameters and adjust their expectations accordingly.
It's us old gits that expect to be allowed to walk around oily, slippery open inspection pits in engine sheds or around live running lines etc.

The preserved railway sector has to be ultra professional these days.
Because what nearly happened at the South Devon Railway recently with the missing toilet floor incident was a MASSIVE wake up call to the whole sector to get their various houses in order...
We got away with it that time, but there are people watching now that weren't before.
And they've got the power to shut it all down if things aren't (in their eyes) done properly...

 

[AM9]

I sense there's a "we don't need all this 'elf 'n safety nonsense" outburst just being held back here by some posters. The simple fact is that is that safety is a serious issue everywhere irrespective of whether the custodians of it are commercial organisations, educational establishments or just a bunch of friends with a common interest. That's the way the law is now, mainly brought on by generations of paying lip service to safety, usually wrapped in a tissue of 'common sense' (whatever that is). Those organisations that dabble in potentially hazardous activities will sooner or later be rumbled and brought to heel, hopefully before somebody is injured or worse. If they resist, their operations will simply be shut down, forcibly if necessary and any protestations about public interest, community values etc. to justify a casual attitude to saferty, rightly ignored.
It is good that those responsible for preserved lines do generally recognise this and are endeavouring to carve an existance that will ensure the preserved assets have a long and successful life. I don't have any issues with that, and quite honestly, it seems that most of their customers (as they now are) appreciate a cleaner and more safety concious environment. In 2017, whilst on holiday, I visited both the South Devon Railway and the Dartmouth Steam Railway. The difference is staggering, Apart from the inevitable grime that comes with coal-burning locos, the DSR was as clean and customer friendly as the national railway would be. Contrast that against the SDR, with dilapidated rolling stock that doesn't inspire much confidence with the paying passenger, (and rightly so considering the matter of the hole in the toilet floor). Had that ended differently, we would have been reading of imprisoned officials and maybe even some volunteers, a total shutdown of the railway there and a dark shadow hanging over every other preserved line. So for those that hanker after the early days of preservation, - with it's 'free access to all areas', and 'make do with safety as it was because real enthusiasts know the dangers', get used to the fact that the rest of the world has moved on including legislation and its penalties.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

The days of being able to say "But we are only volunteers" as an excuse to avoid complying with any sort of regulations are, fortunately, long gone.

Interesting.
The thing is, it's difficult to argue with what's been said there (this is not directed at you by the way Reddragon).
Long gone are the days of unbolting bits of 9F with asbestos blowing all around the place in a windswept Barry scrapyard...

Health and Safety is not a dirty expression. It's good working practice, and it makes us think twice before putting ourselves in danger, no matter what anyone says.
The amount of people that used to be seriously injured, or indeed killed through needless accidents forty years ago compared to now is something that probably isn't emphasised enough as a success story at times.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be strolling around the scrap line at Toton in 1987 cabbing withdrawn Peaks and Rats with nobody watching. But times move on.

Anyone coming into the heritage railway sector as a volunteer these days will understand the parameters and adjust their expectations accordingly.
It's us old gits that expect to be allowed to walk around oily, slippery open inspection pits in engine sheds or around live running lines etc.

The preserved railway sector has to be ultra professional these days.
Because what nearly happened at the South Devon Railway recently with the missing toilet floor incident was a MASSIVE wake up call to the whole sector to get their various houses in order...
We got away with it that time, but there are people watching now that weren't before.
And they've got the power to shut it all down if things aren't (in their eyes) done properly...

I sense there's a "we don't need all this 'elf 'n safety nonsense" outburst just being held back here by some posters. The simple fact is that is that safety is a serious issue everywhere irrespective of whether the custodians of it are commercial organisations, educational establishments or just a bunch of friends with a common interest. That's the way the law is now, mainly brought on by generations of paying lip service to safety, usually wrapped in a tissue of 'common sense' (whatever that is). Those organisations that dabble in potentially hazardous activities will sooner or later be rumbled and brought to heel, hopefully before somebody is injured or worse. If they resist, their operations will simply be shut down, forcibly if necessary and any protestations about public interest, community values etc. to justify a casual attitude to saferty, rightly ignored.
It is good that those responsible for preserved lines do generally recognise this and are endeavouring to carve an existance that will ensure the preserved assets have a long and successful life. I don't have any issues with that, and quite honestly, it seems that most of their customers (as they now are) appreciate a cleaner and more safety concious environment. In 2017, whilst on holiday, I visited both the South Devon Railway and the Dartmouth Steam Railway. The difference is staggering, Apart from the inevitable grime that comes with coal-burning locos, the DSR was as clean and customer friendly as the national railway would be. Contrast that against the SDR, with dilapidated rolling stock that doesn't inspire much confidence with the paying passenger, (and rightly so considering the matter of the hole in the toilet floor). Had that ended differently, we would have been reading of imprisoned officials and maybe even some volunteers, a total shutdown of the railway there and a dark shadow hanging over every other preserved line. So for those that hanker after the early days of preservation, - with it's 'free access to all areas', and 'make do with safety as it was because real enthusiasts know the dangers', get used to the fact that the rest of the world has moved on including legislation and its penalties.

Three spot on postings. Congratulations!

 

[DarloRich]

Three spot on postings. Congratulations!

agreed!

It cannot have escaped the notice of enthusiasts that more and more heritage lines are becoming more like businesses. Not just in their revenue generation but, less understandably, in their attitudes to the very enthusiasts who support them, and, without whom, they`d never have gotten off the ground.

Good. Heritage railways absolutely ARE a business and to suggest they are some special case protected from commercial reality is bizarre! They have to rely on normals paying the bills. Enthusiasts tend to have deep pockets and short arms. It is about running something that attracts normal people not offering silly spotters a chance to play trains.

Do you think the bank manager cares one iota that hobbyists saved a railway in 1967 when his loan is at risk? Honestly? it is great that they did but that means nothing today.

More and more are withdrawing photographers permits, indeed Nick Piggott in the Railway Magazine commented on this in the Feb 2019 edition, apparently the G&WR stated "the days of it being for hobbyists are gone". A Heritage line of which I was a member (until the last renewal....) has recently withdrawn access to their shed, even for members. When questioned about it they had to admit that, as far as they knew, in all the years the public had access to that shed nobody had ever been hurt, they certainly had not been sued. Anyway, even if the worst did come to the worst, the chances of them being sued by a member must be minute.

elf' and safety gone mad innit guv?

Does the existence of the ORR and the rules for running a railway pass you by? Some in the heritage railway sector have winged it for too long and it is about time they were brought to book. Want to run trains? Play by the rules.

The fact is that Heritage lines are not pure businesses, they`re mainly run by volunteers and receive much of their funds, particularly for funding campaigns, from donations. So, to clarify, and complete the statement, “Heritage lines are not for hobbyists, unless they want their time and/or money”.
Does anyone know if membership of Heritage lines is decreasing ? To be frank I could understand it if it was.

The fact is they are a pure business and it is illustrative that you are unable to recognise this is illustrative.

“‘My other piece of advice, Copperfield,’ said Mr. Micawber, ‘you know. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.”

 

[YorkshireBear]

I find it very confusing some of the attitudes to elf & safety on heritage railways.

Network Rail neglect to follow standards and legislation and your son dies at work, the family would be up in arms and sue for millions.
Heritage Railway neglect to follow standards and legislation and your daughter dies volunteering, the family would understand as it was just volunteering and they shouldn't be expected to follow the law.

Is that the case? No it isn't, so why try and claim it is! As an engineer on a heritage railway I will go to prison the same way I would at work so why should I not follow the legislation, like a true professional engineer. The fact that if I do not I am at risk of losing my professional membership to the Institution of Civil Engineers is one simple thing for example! It is not difficult and it is not hard, infact is is beautifully simple, only those who do not understand the legislation or have not even bothered to try say that it is rubbish in my experience.

The other thing about businesses. Unfortunately, a family on a day out pay a lot of money for the privilege through tickets, food and gifts. A lineside photographer who has come to watch his favourite engine from the lineside but contributes not a single penny does not. So who do you expect heritage railways to turn to. If you want heritage railways to survive, then they are businesses end of.

The first comment about popcorn is quite apt, I could rant about this for days on end. I am fed up of being told that volunteers don't need to follow the law!

 

[YorkshireBear]

I sense there's a "we don't need all this 'elf 'n safety nonsense" outburst just being held back here by some posters. The simple fact is that is that safety is a serious issue everywhere irrespective of whether the custodians of it are commercial organisations, educational establishments or just a bunch of friends with a common interest. That's the way the law is now, mainly brought on by generations of paying lip service to safety, usually wrapped in a tissue of 'common sense' (whatever that is). Those organisations that dabble in potentially hazardous activities will sooner or later be rumbled and brought to heel, hopefully before somebody is injured or worse. If they resist, their operations will simply be shut down, forcibly if necessary and any protestations about public interest, community values etc. to justify a casual attitude to saferty, rightly ignored.
It is good that those responsible for preserved lines do generally recognise this and are endeavouring to carve an existance that will ensure the preserved assets have a long and successful life. I don't have any issues with that, and quite honestly, it seems that most of their customers (as they now are) appreciate a cleaner and more safety concious environment. In 2017, whilst on holiday, I visited both the South Devon Railway and the Dartmouth Steam Railway. The difference is staggering, Apart from the inevitable grime that comes with coal-burning locos, the DSR was as clean and customer friendly as the national railway would be. Contrast that against the SDR, with dilapidated rolling stock that doesn't inspire much confidence with the paying passenger, (and rightly so considering the matter of the hole in the toilet floor). Had that ended differently, we would have been reading of imprisoned officials and maybe even some volunteers, a total shutdown of the railway there and a dark shadow hanging over every other preserved line. So for those that hanker after the early days of preservation, - with it's 'free access to all areas', and 'make do with safety as it was because real enthusiasts know the dangers', get used to the fact that the rest of the world has moved on including legislation and its penalties.

Exceptionally good post.

 

[Justin Smith]

A few points spring to mind.

Health & Safety is about reasonable risk, it is not about eliminating all risk as that is impossible. Relatively speaking being a builder, or driving on the roads, is far far more dangerous than walking round a Heritage railway shed, but the H&S Executive don`t ban those activities, see "How Risky Is It ?". The fact is nobody has ever been injured walking round the shed of the Heritage railway I was a member of, certainly they`ve never been sued, they are facts, which are more objective that "projections".

The chances of being sued by a member are vanishingly small, but, as it happens, it wouldn`t be difficult to get them to sign a disclaimer which I`m sure most would do, though they`d also probably feel insulted at the implication they might sue the very railway they`re so keen on assisting.

If modern Heritage railways are just dependent on income from passengers, why do they regularly have appeals for this that and the other ? How far would the GCR have got with its Bridge or Loughborough Canopy if it weren`t for "hobbyists" ?
And why do they depend to a large extent on volunteers ?
What other business has those advantages ?
Answer ?
NONE.
I`ve been a member of a few Heritage railways / societies but no longer am. I have also contributed to a number of appeals but no longer will. Why should I ? I`m treated just the same as every other passenger (sorry customer) and, in any case, as has been said on here, modern Heritage railways are businesses who depend on the passenger for their income not "hobbyists".

 

[YorkshireBear]

A few points spring to mind.

Health & Safety is about reasonable risk, it is not about eliminating all risk as that is impossible. Relatively speaking being a builder, or driving on the roads, is far far more dangerous than walking round a Heritage railway shed, but the H&S Executive don`t ban those activities. The fact is nobody has ever been injured walking round the shed of the Heritage railway I was a member of, certainly they`ve never been sued, they are facts, which are more objective that "projections".

The chances of being sued by a member are vanishingly small, but, as it happens, it wouldn't be difficult to get them to sign a disclaimer which I`m sure most would do, though they`d also probably feel insulted at the implication they might sue the very railway they`re so keen on assisting.

If modern Heritage railways are just dependent on income from passengers, why do they regularly have appeals for this that and the other ?
And why do they depend to a large extent on volunteers ?
What other business has those advantages ?
Answer ?
NONE.
I`ve been a member of a few Heritage railways / societies but no longer am. I have also contributed to a number of appeals but no longer will. Why should I ? I`m treated just the same as every other passenger (sorry customer) and, in any case, as has been said on here, modern Heritage railways are businesses who depend on the passenger for there income not "hobbyists".

Nobody here has said it is about eliminating all risk.

In being a builder are you provided with adequate training, briefings and equipment to help mitigate the risks? You should be by law by the way, as the law accepts it is risky. To drive there is a strict driving test and also laws surrounding enforcement of that. As the law accepts it is risky. Are the same things provided to members of the public wandering around sheds? Not in my experience so it is not a fair comparison. Are members of the public allowed to just wander around construction sites? No, unless escorted and have received a full briefing. I know of injuries to the public in sheds. So it does happen. The common sense you speak of seems to not apply to all hence this approach. Open toe sandals with no socks on a shed tour is not common sense!

I am not suggesting that enthusiasts should be ignored, simply pointing out that they spend less money. Heritage railways are right to target the market who are going to spend more money to keep them going.

 

[Meole]

Most heritage railways require volunteers to sign that they understand the rulebook and have up to date training as required by the ORR, the very opposite of signing a disclaimer.

 

[reddragon]

I`ve been a member of a few Heritage railways / societies but no longer am. I have also contributed to a number of appeals but no longer will. Why should I ? I`m treated just the same as every other passenger (sorry customer) and, in any case, as has been said on here, modern Heritage railways are businesses who depend on the passenger for their income not "hobbyists".

Wonderful, you are punishing Heritage Railways for following the laws of the land. To operate, they need insurance, to get insurance they need an operating safety case signed off by the rail inspectorate. If that restricts what they can do if they want to run trains they must do as they are told.

So, do you drive a car? Why bother with an MOT, just elf & safety gone mad and btw that invalidates your insurance but does allow you to drive past a school belching out toxic fumes and no effective brakes!

 

[Justin Smith]

I am not suggesting that enthusiasts should be ignored, simply pointing out that they spend less money. Heritage railways are right to target the market who are going to spend more money to keep them going.

Are you including the huge amounts raised by appeals, e.g. the GCR Bridge To The Future appeal ?

 

[Justin Smith]

Wonderful, you are punishing Heritage Railways for following the laws of the land. To operate, they need insurance, to get insurance they need an operating safety case signed off by the rail inspectorate. If that restricts what they can do if they want to run trains they must do as they are told.

So, do you drive a car? Why bother with an MOT, just elf & safety gone mad and btw that invalidates your insurance but does allow you to drive past a school belching out toxic fumes and no effective brakes!

I`m not punishing anyone, the fact is I feel no connection to Heritage railways anymore, sad but true. So why should I give them my money, which, TBH, I`m pretty short of at the moment !

BTW, can you quote anything where an insurance company says nobody is allowed in a shed (even members of the organisation) or your insurance is invalid ? On that basis how do they allow anyone in there ?

 

[Worf]

The chances of being sued by a member are vanishingly small, but, as it happens, it wouldn`t be difficult to get them to sign a disclaimer which I`m sure most would do, though they`d also probably feel insulted at the implication they might sue the very railway they`re so keen on assisting.

A disclaimer is not worth the paper it is written on, You cannot sign away basic "rights" however much you would like to do so.

I
And why do they depend to a large extent on volunteers ?
What other business has those advantages ?
Answer ?
NONE.

Wrong again. Have you never heard of RNLI, Air Ambulance, National Trust, English Heritage and many many more that rely on volunteers and fund raising.

 

[AM9]

Are you including the huge amounts raised by appeals, e.g. the GCR Bridge To The Future appeal ?

So making donations to a charity entitles donors to flaunt safety legislation by giving them privileges to bypass safety measures. Even if these zealous enthusiasts manage not to harm themselves, they may be directly responsible for compromising the wellbeing of others, especially by their apparent immunity from danger. How does a responsible parent visiting a preserved railway justify restraining their children when there are others for whom it seems that the rules don't apply?
Clearly you have no idea of how safety works where the lay public is concerned. Gratefully, as is apparent from their actions, the organisation that you refer to does have a more responsible attitude.

 

[jmh59]

I`ve been a member of a few Heritage railways / societies but no longer am.

Out of interest and not being picky, member or volunteer? An overgeneralisation yes but members join to support a thing financially, volunteers are members but also make that thing a reality. As a volunteer I am very safety conscious and never alone. I look both ways before crossing the track even when the railway is not operating, it's just become second nature. But if you're not exposed to this, would you assume that the carriage you are about to walk behind is scotched or otherwise braked? Curiosity killed the cat. I'm not suggesting you don't know what you are doing but the mass of members taken as a whole would probably have no real clue and enthusiasm and heavy metal do not mix well. IMO.

I'm a member of the RNLI (governor no less (just means I give them some money!)) but put me on a lifeboat and i'd fall off and put the crew in danger then rescuing me. So, as a member of the RNLI do I think I can just climb onto one of the boats or invade a lifeboat station?

As to why heritage railways also have to fund raise, have you seen the cost of rebuilding a steam engine? It's likely to be more than the annual income from fares and events and if there's only the one engine then they need to hire another in all at extra cost.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Nothing new here, it depends on the individual site and their policy. I made a tour of preservation sites about 24 years ago (As a last fling before I remarried). The variation between sites even back in 1995 was remarkable
1) Severn Valley Railway and East Lancs Railway - very business like, staff very much like professional railwaymen and not particularly friendly, no access to depots etc. East Lancs Railway was the worst, the staff were downright surly and unhelpful
2) Great Central Railway - again very business like, staff very much like professional railwaymen but much more friendly, unfettered access to depot and Signalbox at Loughborough.
3) Midland Railway Centre - the most enthusiast friendly site I visited, again unfettered access to the workshops and loco storage areas, staff went out their way to help.
4) Crewe Heratage Centre - I got really lucky here, i must have been the only visitor that day and I got a guided "access all areas" tour!

Jim

 

[YorkshireBear]

Are you including the huge amounts raised by appeals, e.g. the GCR Bridge To The Future appeal ?

I can only speak for the railway I am involved in. Which is not the GCR so can't comment.

 

[J-Rod]

I would have thought that if more heritage outfits consider themselves to be proper businesses, the more staying power they have? As many people have already said, gone are the days of messing about with a couple of old trains in a shed for a bit of fun. Also, as a parent of a child who will like trains, dammit... I'd rather they take their responsibilities seriously, if dealing with the public. Better for everyone. It doesn't mean that the staff have to be unfriendly - if anything, anyone in a customer facing role would need to be reminded of this, volunteer or not (on which note, the people at the Mid-Norfolk Railway are very pleasant indeed..!).

As an aside, when I was 13, I was allowed to help out* for a few weekends at the local airport restoring some old jets (DH Vampires, if you're wondering) until the boss realised I was an insurance nightmare and told me I'd not be able to any more. Obviously I was very upset at the time but as an adult, I can totally understand it. Sadly, even this diligent attitude towards H&S didn't prevent the group from having a fatal crash a few years later.


*fetch and carry stuff

 

[Journeyman]

I won't name which one it is, but the heritage railway I'm involved with, as a volunteering member, has told us all recently that it's currently undertaking a major revision of its procedures to ensure they're fully compliant with the law. The site concerned is pretty accessible, but yes, were not in the 60s or 70s any more and you can't just let people wander about where it's very easy to get killed by things. Fatalities can and do happen on heritage railways, such as a platform/train interface fatality on the Mid-Hants, and the level crossing collisions on the RH&DR. As well as that, the SDR toilet floor incident was bloody horrifying and should be a wake-up call to everyone. I can also think of several other incidents, such as a train derailing on the MHR due to a signalman's error - turns out he was in his eighties and hadn't been given appropriate medicals to ensure his fitness to work.

Unless these things are properly dealt with, you'll have no heritage railways at all. It's not about spoiling your fun and being hostile. As to the use of volunteers, it might make labour cheap, but there's never enough of them and most, if not all, heritage railways have some paid staff. You also need money for supplies, training, materials and providing a decent environment. Coal and diesel are not cheap things.

Yes, enthusiast-focussed gala events can bring in the cash, but they're often very expensive to arrange as transporting in a few guest locos can cost a fortune - especially if you don't have a main line connection. I'll be honest, I hate Thomas the bloody tank engine, but without him and the Santa Specials, the railway I'm involved in would have gone under years ago.

There's a lot of competition for tourist money these days, and riding a steam train back and forth, regardless of how nice an experience it is, isn't enough, and without the facilities and infrastructure to attract families and tour groups, the enthusiast demographic alone will absolutely not keep you going.

The OP's attitude and grievance are, in my opinion, unfair and unjustifiable.

 

[A0wen]

I find it very confusing some of the attitudes to elf & safety on heritage railways.

Network Rail neglect to follow standards and legislation and your son dies at work, the family would be up in arms and sue for millions.
Heritage Railway neglect to follow standards and legislation and your daughter dies volunteering, the family would understand as it was just volunteering and they shouldn't be expected to follow the law.

Is that the case? No it isn't, so why try and claim it is! As an engineer on a heritage railway I will go to prison the same way I would at work so why should I not follow the legislation, like a true professional engineer. The fact that if I do not I am at risk of losing my professional membership to the Institution of Civil Engineers is one simple thing for example! It is not difficult and it is not hard, infact is is beautifully simple, only those who do not understand the legislation or have not even bothered to try say that it is rubbish in my experience.

The other thing about businesses. Unfortunately, a family on a day out pay a lot of money for the privilege through tickets, food and gifts. A lineside photographer who has come to watch his favourite engine from the lineside but contributes not a single penny does not. So who do you expect heritage railways to turn to. If you want heritage railways to survive, then they are businesses end of.

The first comment about popcorn is quite apt, I could rant about this for days on end. I am fed up of being told that volunteers don't need to follow the law!

There is a subtlety within the H&S legislation though - which is that it should be followed where practical - so it's not usually imposed on Heritage railways to the same standard as it is for the National network. The problem sometimes is poor understanding of risk and risk management which leads to things being done to a far higher standard or at far greater cost than is necessary. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Heritage railways should disregard H&S legislation, but they should be looking at it making it practical for their particular circumstances and understanding the risks and ensuring appropriate risk mitigation is in place.

 

[DarloRich]

I find it very confusing some of the attitudes to elf & safety on heritage railways.

Network Rail neglect to follow standards and legislation and your son dies at work, the family would be up in arms and sue for millions.
Heritage Railway neglect to follow standards and legislation and your daughter dies volunteering, the family would understand as it was just volunteering and they shouldn't be expected to follow the law.

Is that the case? No it isn't, so why try and claim it is! As an engineer on a heritage railway I will go to prison the same way I would at work so why should I not follow the legislation, like a true professional engineer. The fact that if I do not I am at risk of losing my professional membership to the Institution of Civil Engineers is one simple thing for example! It is not difficult and it is not hard, infact is is beautifully simple, only those who do not understand the legislation or have not even bothered to try say that it is rubbish in my experience.

The other thing about businesses. Unfortunately, a family on a day out pay a lot of money for the privilege through tickets, food and gifts. A lineside photographer who has come to watch his favourite engine from the lineside but contributes not a single penny does not. So who do you expect heritage railways to turn to. If you want heritage railways to survive, then they are businesses end of.

The first comment about popcorn is quite apt, I could rant about this for days on end. I am fed up of being told that volunteers don't need to follow the law!

a very good post. I doubt the OP is minded to consider a viewpoint beyond his own!

Clearly you have no idea of how safety works where the lay public is concerned. Gratefully, as is apparent from their actions, the organisation that you refer to does have a more responsible attitude.

never a truer word spoken

Out of interest and not being picky, member or volunteer?

Indeed - I am a member of my football club. I do not volunteer there. Perhaps my football team, who have regular appeals for funding for things like stand roofs and seats should be insulated from financial reality like the OP seems to think heritage railways are.

I'm a member of the RNLI (governor no less (just means I give them some money!)) but put me on a lifeboat and i'd fall off and put the crew in danger then rescuing me. So, as a member of the RNLI do I think I can just climb onto one of the boats or invade a lifeboat station?

The point is well made however I DO feel as a member of my football club I am qualified to manage the team

I`m not punishing anyone, the fact is I feel no connection to Heritage railways anymore, sad but true. So why should I give them my money

Why is it you feel no connection to heritage railways? Is it that you are expected to follow rules or is it something more?

As a financial contributor the railway could easily reward you with events or activities way beyond anything that would be attractive to randoms. They could offer a much richer reward than simply poking about in a shed looking at lumps of metal! It doesn't take much thought really.

 

[Journeyman]

Does anyone know if membership of Heritage lines is decreasing ? To be frank I could understand it if it was.

Yes, it is, but to be blunt, it's got more to do with people dying because they're old, than anything else.

 

[Justin Smith]

Yes, it is, but to be blunt, it's got more to do with people dying because they're old, than anything else.

It might not just be down to that.....