Are most countries wrong for putting bus stations next to rail stations?

[radamfi]

Do you mean "bus stations outside the UK" or "bus stations in the Netherlands/ Germany/ Switzerland" (which are apparently the only countries outside the UK, since they are the only ones that we get compared to)?

I have no idea whether there are any other countries with public transport as the only ones ever discussed on the Forum are the Netherlands/ Germany/ Switzerland - presumably France/ Spain/ Italy/ USA etc don't have public transport, so we can't use them as benchmarks? Or is it that there are just three countries where they do have perfect public transport and we can only ever compare ourselves to them?

There are of course many other countries that have bus stations at rail stations even if the rail station is far from the town centre. Many if not most of the people reading this thread may not read the "Buses and Coaches" section so for the benefit of those people, the countries mentioned are often discussed there as they are widely recognised as having particularly good public transport.

As for bus stations... it really depends on the market. Some towns/ cities require them, some don't. Some have such big city centres that they have had several over the years, some large places only have a "coach" station. This kind of "one size fits all" policy doesn't help.

You're talking about the British scenario there, but that reminds me to point out that bus stations next to rail stations outside the UK very often don't have separate buildings. They may be fully integrated into the station building or be an array of bus stops outside the station so may not be thought of as "bus stations" in the British sense.

 

[175mph]

This seems to be the key. In my town in Belgium the mainline goes through the centre of the town and the bus station is directly adjacent. Almost like a fifth platform. You can step from train to bus in a couple of meters. The frequency of the bus service is quite low though. In Brussels you can usually stand at a bus stop without checking times and one will come along in a few minutes. Out here in the sticks some services are hourly and you have to plan ahead.

Just like in many parts of the UK in the sticks.

 

[HSTEd]

If we were repeating the MK concept - a large new build city, it would likely be best to abandon the concept of bus stations entirely.

Guided bus and or light rail segments could be few trough platforms in railway stations arranged as if they were railways

 

[MarcVD]

The station of Mons, currently being rebuilt, will have two platforms entirely similar to railway ones but dedicated to bus traffic.

 

[coppercapped]

Integrated buses and trains in a big city is a no-brainer, although supporters of the British system don't see it that way. But even in small towns, the Germans have full on integration. Taking Zittau near the Czech border as an example, it has four railway stations, all of them equidistant from the town centre but none of them very close.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/50.8936/14.8115

If you look at the transport map, the buses all serve both the main railway station and the town centre by an elaborate web of routes.

https://www.zvon.de/de/dnl/sv_zi_171210.5477.pdf

That would never happen in a British town.

How about this, then...

http://www.reading-buses.co.uk/files/maps/current/Reading network map.pdf

and

http://www.reading-buses.co.uk/files/maps/current/Reading town centre stops map.pdf

The railway station is close to the shopping centre so most bus routes can reasonably easily serve both. There is no separate bus station, unless one includes the parking bays right outside the railway station for the Railair coaches to Heathrow.

Integrated ticketing with the trains really doesn't matter for local journeys in this area - there are only four railway stations in the whole conurbation all serving radial routes. The number of people travelling from Earley to Tilehurst by train in a week can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.

The Plusbus option is of course available to ease the train-bus interface...

 

[radamfi]

How about this, then...

http://www.reading-buses.co.uk/files/maps/current/Reading network map.pdf

and

http://www.reading-buses.co.uk/files/maps/current/Reading town centre stops map.pdf

The railway station isn't very far from the town centre, so running to the rail station isn't very controversial, but it is well integrated by British standards.

 

[30907]

Do you mean "bus stations outside the UK" or "bus stations in the Netherlands/ Germany/ Switzerland" (which are apparently the only countries outside the UK, since they are the only ones that we get compared to)?

I have no idea whether there are any other countries with public transport as the only ones ever discussed on the Forum are the Netherlands/ Germany/ Switzerland - presumably France/ Spain/ Italy/ USA etc don't have public transport, so we can't use them as benchmarks? Or is it that there are just three countries where they do have perfect public transport and we can only ever compare ourselves to them?

As for bus stations... it really depends on the market. Some towns/ cities require them, some don't. Some have such big city centres that they have had several over the years, some large places only have a "coach" station. This kind of "one size fits all" policy doesn't help.

The town I grew up in had a bus station that all local routes ran through - there was maybe a three minute penalty for the diversion - but over the years fewer and fewer of the "town service" kind of routes served it, as it wasn't worth delaying "local" passengers compared to the lower number of "interchanging" passengers. And that's without worrying about a train station - fair enough if the train station is relatively centre to town but it'd be a waste of time diverting all local buses past the train station in somewhere like Leicester or Bristol.

In Sheffield, where I now live, the number of buses running past/through the bus station ("Interchange") has fallen significantly over the years as operators realise that most passengers would prefer a service through the heart of the city (to one that avoids the main shopping streets in order to get closer to the train station).

But the geography and demands in each large conurbation are different - trying to impose something that works elsewhere isn't always going to work.

Quite so. I am staying in Quedlinburg, Germany, at the moment, and this morning took the bus (free with Visitor Card) to Wernigerode via Blankenburg. In each place the bus station/interchange is at the rail station - excellent.
However, MOST buses don't make any particular effort to serve the respective town centres. It's complicated by pedestrianisation, and the towns are not huge (maybe 10 mins walk into the centre), but basically it's a case of: if they happen to pass nearer, well and good, otherwise not.
Incidentally, Wernigerode (the busiest?) has a town bus network with a central interchange point, nowhere near the bus/rail station.

So there are pros and cons - as with everything.

 

[RT4038]

Do you mean "bus stations outside the UK" or "bus stations in the Netherlands/ Germany/ Switzerland" (which are apparently the only countries outside the UK, since they are the only ones that we get compared to)?

I have no idea whether there are any other countries with public transport as the only ones ever discussed on the Forum are the Netherlands/ Germany/ Switzerland - presumably France/ Spain/ Italy/ USA etc don't have public transport, so we can't use them as benchmarks? Or is it that there are just three countries where they do have perfect public transport and we can only ever compare ourselves to them?

As for bus stations... it really depends on the market. Some towns/ cities require them, some don't. Some have such big city centres that they have had several over the years, some large places only have a "coach" station. This kind of "one size fits all" policy doesn't help.

The town I grew up in had a bus station that all local routes ran through - there was maybe a three minute penalty for the diversion - but over the years fewer and fewer of the "town service" kind of routes served it, as it wasn't worth delaying "local" passengers compared to the lower number of "interchanging" passengers. And that's without worrying about a train station - fair enough if the train station is relatively centre to town but it'd be a waste of time diverting all local buses past the train station in somewhere like Leicester or Bristol.

In Sheffield, where I now live, the number of buses running past/through the bus station ("Interchange") has fallen significantly over the years as operators realise that most passengers would prefer a service through the heart of the city (to one that avoids the main shopping streets in order to get closer to the train station).

But the geography and demands in each large conurbation are different - trying to impose something that works elsewhere isn't always going to work.

It is to be noted that the title of this thread is a bit of a misnomer - it matters not one jot if the bus station is in the town centre or at the railway station as such - what the OP is really asking is 'Should all the bus routes serving a town go to/via the railway station?' You could have a splendid bus station by the railway station but only served by a few buses, or a line of stops by the railway station served by every bus route, as well as the bus station in town. Big difference.

I just think of Boulogne-sur-Mer in France, where the bus station is in the town near the harbour, quite some distance from the railway station......

 

[tbtc]

There are of course many other countries that have bus stations at rail stations even if the rail station is far from the town centre. Many if not most of the people reading this thread may not read the "Buses and Coaches" section so for the benefit of those people, the countries mentioned are often discussed there as they are widely recognised as having particularly good public transport

My point is that your thread title ("Are most countries wrong for putting bus stations next to rail stations?") suggests that you are talking about "most countries" (of the roughly two hundred on the planet), but instead you are only wanting to talk about the same three countries that are always used as benchmarks to make the UK look poor.

I accept that the Netherlands/ Germany/ Switzerland "are widely recognised as having particularly good public transport" - I'm not criticising them or their approach - I'm certainly not saying that the UK approach is perfect (though there are generally historic reasons for why our town/city centres are fairly unplanned and our railways relatively haphazard in where stations are located) - I just get frustrated with the way that we can only compare ourselves to the three best countries, as if there 's no middle ground - we are either in the perfect world of the Netherlands/ Germany/ Switzerland or we are lagging behind in the UK - like there are only four countries on the planet.

 

[radamfi]

My point is that your thread title ("Are most countries wrong for putting bus stations next to rail stations?") suggests that you are talking about "most countries" (of the roughly two hundred on the planet), but instead you are only wanting to talk about the same three countries that are always used as benchmarks to make the UK look poor.

I accept that the Netherlands/ Germany/ Switzerland "are widely recognised as having particularly good public transport" - I'm not criticising them or their approach - I'm certainly not saying that the UK approach is perfect (though there are generally historic reasons for why our town/city centres are fairly unplanned and our railways relatively haphazard in where stations are located) - I just get frustrated with the way that we can only compare ourselves to the three best countries, as if there 's no middle ground - we are either in the perfect world of the Netherlands/ Germany/ Switzerland or we are lagging behind in the UK - like there are only four countries on the planet.

But if the aim is to improve, then why not look at places that do things well? There is less reason to look at places that aren't so good, except perhaps to know what to avoid. If it makes you feel better, I will acknowledge there are some countries doing worse than the UK. Almost everyone would agree that the US is worse than the UK, for example.

Also, from the point of view of "transport tourism", I personally like to spend time travelling around in places where the service is good, so I find knowing who's "best" is useful.

Regarding the pool of countries worth comparing to, I suggest it is really only developed countries that are relevant, as elsewhere fewer local people can afford cars so would be captive to public transport or more informal "jitney" type services.

As an aside, it is not uncommon for rail stations to be outside the town centre in other countries, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

 

[dutchflyer]

@radamfi-in DE, CH-and also the lesser mentioned DK, SE, NL, BE, LU the town-centres and train stations are usually adjacent.
PLUS that COUNTRYbuses here in NL mostly serve schoolstudents-high school age. Specific for them, a in the last years many very big education-places have been erected very close to such major interchanges-merging several former smaller such schools.
In NL there has always been (buried in the concession-allotments, even when bus transport was still profitable-years ago) that buses could not directly compete with trains.
In East-EUR, often mentioned as being so public transport friendly, there are many cases where the bus and train stations are not side by side. F.e. HU; Miskolc, Szeged, Debrecen, Pecs; CZ; Ostrava, Brno, Plzen; PL:Bydgoszcz, Torun. There the buses end to be closer to city-centre. This makes for rather inconvenient transfers if those are needed.

 

[Taunton]

In Taunton the longstanding (1950 I think) bus station is at the opposite end of the town to the rail station. Which may appear poor. However, when built the majority of bus travellers were not wanting to go to the rail station, but to the town centre. It serves the town much better than if it had been built out where the rail station is.

It is notable that many of the country routes from there in the classic 1950s-60s bus heyday were nevertheless not really profitable, but the few that were ran in direct competition with the railway routes. Well, sort of. Bridgwater and Wellington were the few that had regular interval quite frequent operations, and buses served the centres of all the places along the way; in fact almost all the users would have found it difficult if not impossible to get to the parallel rail service.

 

[exile]

Here in the North West, there are several towns with no bus station at all - Blackpool, Salford, Southport, Barrow, Widnes. Of those that do have one, the bus station is generally central. But then, so is the railway station - exceptions - Bolton, Warrington Bank Quay (even those are not far from the centre). Occasionally the railway station is at one end of the central area and the bus station at the other (Preston, Carlisl). Elsewhere in Britain I can think of Cheltenham (rail station very much not central, bus station central), Bristol (Temple Meads definitely not central), Cambridge (station kept well away from the University by the 19th Century dons). In my various trips to the continent, I have found a mixture of arrangements - Spain seems to specialise in both rail and bus stations being some distance from the centre and from each other. In Italy, Germany, Austria and Switzerland the out of town rail station is a rarity and the bus station is very often adjacent - although some of these are a collection of bus stops rather than a station - Flixbus seems to stop at places which lack even a bus shelter, eg at the back of Dresden Hauptbahnhof.

 

[pemma]

Here in the North West, there are several towns with no bus station at all - Blackpool, Salford, Southport, Barrow, Widnes.

Bus station is a loose term. Piccadilly Gardens in Manchester could be described as a bus station but some will argue you need to go to Shudehill for a bus station. Although, trying to describe something like Wilmslow Bank Square as a bus station would be pushing it.

 

[radamfi]

Bus station is a loose term. Piccadilly Gardens in Manchester could be described as a bus station but some will argue you need to go to Shudehill for a bus station. Although, trying to describe something like Wilmslow Bank Square as a bus station would be pushing it.

Having a separate big building for local buses is quite a British thing and far from the norm in countries where buses go to the railway station, as the railway station typically acts as the bus station building.

There are sometimes distinct bus stations for long distance coaches which can often be sited far from the city centre for ease of access to the motorway.

 

[radamfi]

In my various trips to the continent, I have found a mixture of arrangements - Spain seems to specialise in both rail and bus stations being some distance from the centre and from each other. In Italy, Germany, Austria and Switzerland the out of town rail station is a rarity and the bus station is very often adjacent - although some of these are a collection of bus stops rather than a station - Flixbus seems to stop at places which lack even a bus shelter, eg at the back of Dresden Hauptbahnhof.

Regarding Spain, are we talking about local buses or long distance coaches? Spain has had long distance domestic coaches for a long time, unlike most other western European countries which have only just started to allow them. For example like Germany, so bus stations for long distance coaches have not been necessary. Therefore they normally stop at regular bus stops.

 

[exile]

Regarding Spain, are we talking about local buses or long distance coaches? Spain has had long distance domestic coaches for a long time, unlike most other western European countries which have only just started to allow them. For example like Germany, so bus stations for long distance coaches have not been necessary. Therefore they normally stop at regular bus stops.

Seville has 2 bus stations for inter city services, and Granada has 1. None are particularly central and are some distance from the railway station. In each case local services just stop at various locations in the city rather than at a station. As far as Germany is concerned - I remember when British inter city buses were deregulated they made considerable inroads into the inter city travel market - but the effect wasn't permanent. I wonder if this will happen in Germany as well. Having buses stop at locations without even a bus shelter isn't going to help!

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Definitely an interesting question to discuss. I generally think, that if the railway station is not really in the middle of nowhere, the bus station for local buses should be there too. In Bocholt, the station is just south of the city centre, but most buses only stop at Bustreff bus station in the city centre, which made connecting to the train to Wesel quite difficult. On the other hand, Velbert closed its central railway station in the 1960s and the line from Essen to Wuppertal now only passes along the eastern districts of Nierenhof, Langenberg, Neviges and Rosenhügel, and obviously it is a good idea to have a ZOB (central bus station) in Velbert proper, with local buses connecting the ZOB with the railway stations.

 

[Clip]

It is to be noted that the title of this thread is a bit of a misnomer - it matters not one jot if the bus station is in the town centre or at the railway station as such - what the OP is really asking is 'Should all the bus routes serving a town go to/via the railway station?' You could have a splendid bus station by the railway station but only served by a few buses, or a line of stops by the railway station served by every bus route, as well as the bus station in town. Big difference.

I just think of Boulogne-sur-Mer in France, where the bus station is in the town near the harbour, quite some distance from the railway station......

someone's but the mail on the head here. As long as there are buses outside that either go to the final destination or so where close where they may have to change then that's all that matters.

look at Newcastle - Haymarket is a trek away but you can still get the pov wagon to it or the metro. Luckily being from the West end i just hopped on the bus outside the station home.

all hail Germany and the s bahn