Are National Rail season tickets valid on London Overground?

[GiovanniBCY75]

I have an annual gold card from Brockley to London Terminals issued by Southern. Can I use it to go to Victoria by travelling Brockley - Surrey Quays - Clapham Junction [all on the Overground] and then get a Southern train from Clapham Junction to Victoria? Quite often the London Bridge to Victoria train operated by Southern is cancelled, and seeing as it is only twice an hour, using the London Overground is a useful alternative.

What type of season ticket is valid on the London Overground? I cannot seem to find any information about ticket restrictions for this.

 

[Romilly]

London Overground services are National Rail services. As for the rest of your question, the answer turns on identifying the permitted National Rail routes for a Brockley to London Terminals ticket that cover journeys to London Victoria. The through trains are fine. And you can get itineraries for a Brockley to London Terminals anytime day return that take you to Victoria: by changing at Penge with a walk between Penge West and Penge East stations; and by changing at Surrey Quays and Denmark Hill; but not for Brockley-Surrey Quays-Clapham Junction-Victoria

NB there are three weekday London Overground trains that run to/from Battersea Park: you can use those to go Victoria-Battersea Park-Surrey Quays-Brockley (depart Brockley at 2209, or depart Victoria at 0606 or 2252).

 

[GiovanniBCY75]

London Overground services are National Rail services. As for the rest of your question, the answer turns on identifying the permitted National Rail routes for a Brockley to London Terminals ticket that cover journeys to London Victoria. The through trains are fine. And you can get itineraries for a Brockley to London Terminals anytime day return that take you to Victoria: by changing at Penge with a walk between Penge West and Penge East stations; and by changing at Surrey Quays and Denmark Hill; but not for Brockley-Surrey Quays-Clapham Junction-Victoria

NB there are three weekday London Overground trains that run to/from Battersea Park: you can use those to go Victoria-Battersea Park-Surrey Quays-Brockley (depart Brockley at 2209, or depart Victoria at 0606 or 2252).

Thanks but I am none the wiser here. LO is a national rail service but so?

In the national rail journey planner, I don't see any examples of a permitted route changing at Penge like you have suggested. Plus you mentioned changing at Surrey Quays and Denmark Hill - but how do I get there on a valid journey with my Gold card??

 

[maniacmartin]

The Gold card that you bought from Southern most likely says Route:ANY PERMITTED on the front. That means that it is it valid on all National Rail Operators, including London Overground, as long as you are following a permitted route. So you can just use the Gold card via Surrey Quays and Denmark Hill in the same way you would on the Southern-branded train.

The National Rail journey planner offers many permitted routes, but sometimes there are more obscure routes that are permitted. Our guide here details how to calculate the permitted routes (it's quite a complicated process).

 

[Romilly]

Using the National Rail Enquiries journey planner for a Brockley to "London Victoria" journey, if you use the Advanced Options to specify Penge East in the "Travel via" box, you will be offered routes for the £6.10 anytime day return that include the walking interchange between the two Penge stations. If instead you put Denmark Hill in that box, you will get journeys for the £6.10 ticket that involve changes at Surrey Quays and at one or other of Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye. That £6.10 ticket is the day equivalent of a Brockley to London Terminals Annual Season Ticket, so routes valid for that day ticket will also be valid for the Annual ticket.

 

[GiovanniBCY75]

Hmm - I can't see why I am permitted to use the Overground only to Denmark Hill, and then be required to get a SouthEastern train to Victoria. Why can't I stay on the Overground to Clapham Junction and get a Southern train to Victoria?

 

[maniacmartin]

As I mentioned above, permitted routes are quite complex. You should read our Section 3 of Fares Guide that I linked to and come back.
As London Group is a Routeing Point of Brockley in the Pink Pages, there are no mapped routes. Thus the only permitted routes are:

• Direct trains involving no changes
• The shortest route, and routes that are no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route (as per page F7 of the NRG in detail)
• Routes permitted by any easements

The shortest route from Brockley to Victoria is 11.25 miles. As going via both Surrey Quays and Clapham Junction is longer than (11.25 + 3) miles, it is not valid

 

[GiovanniBCY75]

Thanks. It's a bit incredible that passengers would be expected to know all this just to get another route to their destination, especially if a train is cancelled. There is actually a slight disadvantage to make passengers take the shortest route as this would overload those services when in fact other services, which take longer, could take the brunt.

 

[30907]

I can get the TfL Journey Planner to show 0709 Brockley-Surrey Quays-Clapham Jn- Victoria as a fastest journey option, but it is consistently faster as well as less walking to change onto Southeastern or to do the Penge W-E walk.

NRE, which is definitive, requires 2 tickets, which confirms the advice from maniacmartin. I doubt that, in practice, the route the OP wishes to take would be challenged, but that is a different matter.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks. It's a bit incredible that passengers would be expected to know all this just to get another route to their destination

Passengers are not expected to know how to calculate permitted routes. (In fact, not many rail staff do!)

Rail fare booking sites will calculate this for you, as will National Rail Enquiries.

especially if a train is cancelled.

Where this occurs, seek staff advice. You may be instructed to take a route that would not normally be a permitted route. Following staff instructions would validate the route.

In practice, the route is likely to be seen as reasonable and would almost certainly be accepted in practice. Also, as no fares are undercut, it would have been considered valid under British Rail's rules, and it therefore should be valid today.

However booking engines cannot offer it, due to it breaching the 3 mile rule, and there being no other rule to allow it.

You could contact the relevant train companies and seek this validity be extended.

There is actually a slight disadvantage to make passengers take the shortest route as this would overload those services when in fact other services, which take longer, could take the brunt.

Due to the way fares are set in the London area, any potential overcrowding just isn't likely to be considered when it comes to fares and routeing matters.

 

[maniacmartin]

I’m going to have to revise my previous post. I used a website made by forum member soil to calculate the distances as I was too lazy to read the distances from the official source, namely the first column of the PDF timetables published by Network Rail. However I forgot that soil’s calculator hasn’t been updated to include the new piece of track between Surrey Quays and Queens Road Peckham.

I think the total distance should fall within the 3 mile rule so I’m confused as to why journey planners aren’t showing it.