Are Pendolinos cheaper than the IEP?

[RobShipway]

Interesting the 20 - 30m mark sounds about what I'd have guessed, this would be something around 70k to 100k per car if assigned purely to the first order tranche which does appear expensive to me. However the cost per car still around £2.1m - £2.3m?

What I'd be interested is learn is what effect client specification changes have had on the outline specification in terms of abortive cost. I
do understand that an outline bid specification would have formed a high level functional specification. Whereby this can then be bound the later technical specification which can in turn then drive detailed design work.

Does the £20 - 30 million not also include the design of the train works that Hitachi is going to build and also any maintenance facilities design?

 

[sprinterguy]

What is the axle load of a 390? Anyone?

13.9 tonnes for the heaviest vehicle (The DMRFO), 11.375t for the lightest (The TSO in the middle of a nine-carriage formation).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interesting the 20 - 30m mark sounds about what I'd have guessed, this would be something around 70k to 100k per car if assigned purely to the first order tranche which does appear expensive to me. However the cost per car still around £2.1m - £2.3m?

What I'd be interested is learn is what effect client specification changes have had on the outline specification in terms of abortive cost. I
do understand that an outline bid specification would have formed a high level functional specification. Whereby this can then be bound the later technical specification which can in turn then drive detailed design work.

The DfT is buying (renting) IEP diagrams not trains.
Like the Thameslink fleet, it's a PFI-type deal.
It doesn't come down to £ per coach, that's all for Agility Trains (plus depots, maintenance, financing etc).
For DfT and the TOCs it will be pence per mile, per diagram.

That's not to deny that design costs, and change control generally, will have to be funded somehow.
If DfT switched suppliers there would be an unholy row about design/bid costs with Agility.
Still odds-on for Hitachi in my view.

 

[HSTEd]

Ooh PFI, that sounds like a good idea.

Oh well, I suppose this if the brave new world.

 

[Yew]

Just had a thought, but since IEP's have 26M long carriages, instead of the 323m of pendolinos, an 8 car IEP would have the same amount of space as a 9 car Pendolino.

So If we look at it, an extra 20k per car, versus a million for an extra pendolino carriage, seems to indicate that the IEP would actually be cheaper.

Unless the wrong tree is being barked up by myself?

 

[HSTEd]

It comes out to rather more than a million pounds over the economic life of the vehicle thanks to it being £20,000 each and every month.

 

[jon0844]

Ooh PFI, that sounds like a good idea.

Oh well, I suppose this if the brave new world.

PFI seems like a recipe for disaster.

Take a nearby hospital, which clearly outsourced the design/build/maintain of a multi-storey car park. Besides huge parking charges, the car park has loads of design errors - from painted pedestrian walkways that cross through walls and then ends directly at a brick wall - to tight 90 degree turns that most cars, and certainly all vans, will struggle to turn around.

But I am sure that Vinci Car Parks will get to run the car park for a long, long time and make loads of profit before it hands back to the hospital trust - and they are lumbered with fixing things.

It's all a ploy to get something done now without paying for it, but then paying through the nose for it later.

What was the hospital that Labour financed through PFI that is now in so much debt it can't afford to put any beds in or staff? What the hell happened there?!

 

[IanXC]

Just had a thought, but since IEP's have 26M long carriages, instead of the 323m of pendolinos, an 8 car IEP would have the same amount of space as a 9 car Pendolino.

So If we look at it, an extra 20k per car, versus a million for an extra pendolino carriage, seems to indicate that the IEP would actually be cheaper.

Unless the wrong tree is being barked up by myself?

I think that might be a case of apples and pears. But your right its not as clear cut as it first seems.

The IEP figure is £20k per vehicle per month, compared to 'a million' to purchase a pendolino vehicle.

*warning - back of an envelope calculation* an 8 car IEP will cost £1.9m per year in leasing costs more than an 8 car pendo (based on the 20k figure).

 

[Mike C]

13.9 tonnes for the heaviest vehicle (The DMRFO), 11.375t for the lightest (The TSO in the middle of a nine-carriage formation).

That's very good. Should be track-friendly enough compared to the competition with figures like that.

 

[Chris125]

Just had a thought, but since IEP's have 26M long carriages, instead of the 323m of pendolinos, an 8 car IEP would have the same amount of space as a 9 car Pendolino.

That comes at a cost - the IEP project will require infrastructure work on the routes where it will operate, i cant remember the cost off-hand but its not insignificant.

Chris

 

[anthony263]

That comes at a cost - the IEP project will require infrastructure work on the routes where it will operate, i cant remember the cost off-hand but its not insignificant.

Chris

Some work will have to be done west Cardiff and I wonder if the IEP's will be able to pass each other on that curve just after you leave Neath heading to Swansea.

I as many others will agree see this IEP heading for disaster especially if some operators say they don't want them and have a much cheaper alternative such as a class 180 style EMU which can be hauled by a diesel loco away from the wires

 

[w1bbl3]

Does the £20 - 30 million not also include the design of the train works that Hitachi is going to build and also any maintenance facilities design?

Design costs of depots / maintenance facilities will be peanuts in comparison to the train. Assume 7-8% of depot shell/core build contract value is design, the cl395 Ashford depot was IIRC £52m all in including fit out. So the shell should have been around £9-10m thus under £1m in design, mere pocket change against total programme cost/price.

The DfT is buying (renting) IEP diagrams not trains.
Like the Thameslink fleet, it's a PFI-type deal.
It doesn't come down to £ per coach, that's all for Agility Trains (plus depots, maintenance, financing etc).

Diagram finance for a pay per use contract is an altogether different and more complex can of worms, but unit "purchase" price and availablity (thus number units required to be purchased) will be two of the key contract input cost elements used to calculate ultimate cost per diagram mile.

The real question would I suppose be does the mentioned 20k figure compare like for like. To reach parity maintenance costs, finance costs of operational spares etc would have to be added onto the basic cl390 ROSCO lease cost per month.

 

[WatcherZero]

Also more units will have to be built than those provided for service each day. Rather than the usual approach where we see an order of 10 units 8 of which will be required for service we are seeing an order for the number in service not the required spares. It does mean the costs will be amortalised over more than the headline figure. Theres also nothing to stop Hitachi offering to lease more commercially if they decide they have an oversupply or can build a few extra at a competitive rate.

 

[pemma]

Just had a thought, but since IEP's have 26M long carriages, instead of the 323m of pendolinos, an 8 car IEP would have the same amount of space as a 9 car Pendolino.

I assume you meant to say 23m - not 323m carriages! Some 323m carriages would do nicely but I think there may be some major clearance issues.

An intermediate vehicle on a Pendolino is 23.9m with the driving cars 25.1m.

 

[Rhydgaled]

That comes at a cost - the IEP project will require infrastructure work on the routes where it will operate, i cant remember the cost off-hand but its not insignificant.

I didn't think DaFT had ever released the cost of that aspect, when I e-mailed them they didn't seem to know. I've just been trying to work things out from elsewhere. One Network Rail press release about the GW upgrade included £150m for IEP. Now, my guess is that can't be the rolling stock order, as that wouldn't be funded through Network Rail.

Also, an IEP coach is supposedly (so I gather from Modern Railways) £2.6m to buy, plus £250,000 for each of the diesel engines. That means the £150m would not quite buy you 11 5-car bi-mode units. Therefore, the £150m figure does seem to be something else, and I'm guessing it is the cost of clearing the routes for 26 metre carriges. You could buy quite a few miles of wires for £150m, and add a £250k saving from each diesel engine (as a wild guess, probablly around £60,000,000 total).

Some work will have to be done west Cardiff and I wonder if the IEP's will be able to pass each other on that curve just after you leave Neath heading to Swansea.

Personally I think IEP clearance should stop at Cardiff (and Oxford, Newbury/Westbury and Weston-Super Mare). That leaves Swansea and the south-west inaccessible to their new IEPs, sending that asspect of the IEP fleet to East Coast in exchange for some stock that shouldn't need guage clearance works (Intercity 225s) and retaining IC125s on the south-west services should see to that.

I as many others will agree see this IEP heading for disaster especially if some operators say they don't want them and have a much cheaper alternative such as a class 180 style EMU which can be hauled by a diesel loco away from the wires

As others have said above, Hitachi probablly have this one (IEP) in the bag now. I think the best we can hope for (and DfT will still take some pursuading) is to order IEP without all the diesel engines, ie. just a pure EMU.

An intermediate vehicle on a Pendolino is 23.9m with the driving cars 25.1m.

So a Pendolinio would not work on GWML without guage clearance either?

 

[pemma]

So a Pendolinio would not work on GWML without guage clearance either?

I don't know about how easily Pendolinos could get clearance and whether on some lines that would depend on utilising the tilting facility or not.

When ever 165/166 clearance is mentioned people bring up it being a combination of the width and carriage length being the issue but I'm not 100% sure on that as the 323s are wider than standard 23m carriages and the carriages are slightly longer than 23m and yet the only thing preventing them moving around seems to be unelectrified track.

 

[IanXC]

When ever 165/166 clearance is mentioned people bring up it being a combination of the width and carriage length being the issue but I'm not 100% sure on that as the 323s are wider than standard 23m carriages and the carriages are slightly longer than 23m and yet the only thing preventing them moving around seems to be unelectrified track.

Don't 323s have very tapered carriage ends? Would that keep them within C3?

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't know about how easily Pendolinos could get clearance and whether on some lines that would depend on utilising the tilting facility or not.

When ever 165/166 clearance is mentioned people bring up it being a combination of the width and carriage length being the issue but I'm not 100% sure on that as the 323s are wider than standard 23m carriages and the carriages are slightly longer than 23m and yet the only thing preventing them moving around seems to be unelectrified track.

I guess the GWML will be one of the easier lines as it is such a generous gauge, if they would fit I haven't a clue, but I suspect it will be easier than say the MML!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is from the NR CP5 GW plan under "IEP", and is probably what the £130M buys you.

In order to deliver the increased service frequency and accommodate longer trains infrastructure improvements will be required, such as track
layout reconfiguration including additional lines, platform extensions, station enhancements and associated signalling adjustments.
Timetable modelling and development work is underway to confirm these requirements, but it is envisaged elements will include remodelling Paddington
station and its approaches, constructing a fourth platform at Bristol Parkway and associated station improvements and additional infrastructure around
Bristol.

Probably much the same would be necessary for any alternative train to IEP.

 

[Rhydgaled]

This is from the NR CP5 GW plan under "IEP", and is probably what the £130M buys you.

In order to deliver the increased service frequency and accommodate longer trains infrastructure improvements will be required, such as track
layout reconfiguration including additional lines, platform extensions, station enhancements and associated signalling adjustments.
Timetable modelling and development work is underway to confirm these requirements, but it is envisaged elements will include remodelling Paddington
station and its approaches, constructing a fourth platform at Bristol Parkway and associated station improvements and additional infrastructure around
Bristol.

Probably much the same would be necessary for any alternative train to IEP.

So what cost does the cost come to for IEP guage clearance on the following routes, which personally I would not clear for IEP but I beleive they plan to clear?:

• Cardiff - Swansea/Carmarthen (don't think they even intend to clear to Pembroke Dock, so diesels under the wires for a long way or lost service)
• Severn Tunnel Junction - Gloucester
• Weston-Super-Mare - Taunton
• Westbury - Paignton (and according to some plans I've seen Plymouth/Penzance)
• Oxford - Hereford

I can't imagine it being cheap, especially if they still plan to clear to Plymouth/Penzance. Add the £60million-ish saving on diesel engines and you probablly could electrify to Swansea and get a number of Voyager pantograph cars to make up some 5-car 220 bi-modes for the Cotswolds line (probablly wouldn't get enough Voyager panto cars, but it'd be a contribution to the project anyway). Of course you will need to put some of that money towards refurbishing some diesel locos (probablly only need about three of them) and equiping them with TDM to take the trains beyond Swansea.

 

[pemma]

According to the FT the government will commit to 600 IEP vehicles, which Roger Ford has described as 'bonkers'.

 

[transmanche]

On a related note, there's a rather scathing piece in the Derby Telegraph today; "Whitehall's mañana ministry mystifies on rail deal delays".

 

[395]

forget about pandelinos, All IEP Units will be Hitachi Javelin Class mix of all Electric and Bi mode diesel Electric Units.

 

[swt_passenger]

forget about pandelinos, All IEP Units will be Hitachi Javelin Class mix of all Electric and Bi mode diesel Electric Units.

WIth respect, I think everyone already knows what IEPs are likely to be. (Although I'm sure they'll be end door 26m units, and not the 395 style. The 395s aren't officially 'Javelin Class' either, IIRC.)

They are discussing what it should be instead, as they have been for about three years...

 

[Nym]

WIth respect, I think everyone already knows what IEPs are likely to be. (Although I'm sure they'll be end door 26m units, and not the 395 style. The 395s aren't officially 'Javelin Class' either, IIRC.)

They are discussing what it should be instead, as they have been for about three years...

Please do not feed....

I suspect this poster is simply going to end up trolling as a Hitachi Fanboi so there's no point in trying to argue the point, just leave them without food...

 

[395]

Please do not feed....

I suspect this poster is simply going to end up trolling as a Hitachi Fanboi so there's no point in trying to argue the point, just leave them without food...

All will be revieled in a few weeks, its been a long wait, but when we see these units in service they will be a revalation.

 

[ainsworth74]

The 395s aren't officially 'Javelin Class' either, IIRC.

That's correct they are officially Class 395. The name Javelin applies only to the Olympic services that they will be running in the near future.

They are discussing what it should be instead, as they have been for about three years...

What else are we supposed to do around here

 

[395]

That's correct they are officially Class 395. The name Javelin applies only to the Olympic services that they will be running in the near future.



What else are we supposed to do around here

I know but Javelin has an Olympic feel to it don't you think, They are classed as 395.