Are routes suggested by journey planners ALWAYS valid?

[1B85]

Is a given route suggested by the journey planner ALWAYS valid? By which I mean at any time of the day (notwithstanding time restrictions on certain ticket types) or day of the week and in both directions?

We are talking Off-Peak and Anytime singles and returns, none of which have a valid only via/not valid via restriction.

Assume a set of hypothetical stations, A-B-C-D forming a rough quadrilateral, if you were to travel A-B-C-D-A, you would do so without passing through the same station twice except returning to your origin, A.

A ticket from A-B costs much less than a ticket from A-C of the same type. There are no direct trains from A-B or A-C.

Mostly the journey planners suggest a route A-B, but for various values of date and time, sometimes suggest a route encompassing A-D-C-B.

Can I purchase an A-B ticket and use it to travel A-D-C without ever having the intention to visit B at any time or on any date based on the journey planner occasionally recommending this route option, as stopping short is permitted on Off Peak and Anytime tickets?

 

[najaB]

Is a given route suggested by the journey planner ALWAYS valid? By which I mean at any time of the day (notwithstanding time restrictions on certain ticket types) or day of the week and in both directions?

An itinerary (as opposed to a route) provided by an accredited journey planning tool in association with a specific fare is, de facto, confirmation of validity of that ticket used to make that journey.

 

[1B85]

An itinerary (as opposed to a route) provided by an accredited journey planning tool in association with a specific fare is, de facto, confirmation of validity of that ticket used to make that journey.

Yes, that's what I thought.

But say the journey planner only suggests this journey, one way, on a Sunday afternoon (perhaps because of a lack of regular Sunday services in parts), due to the fact that it is an off peak/anytime ticket purchase (valid for use Sun-Sat), could the same journey (changing at the same stations as the suggested Sunday afternoon journey) be validly made (for example) on a Monday morning?

 

[najaB]

Could the same journey (changing at the same stations as the suggested Sunday afternoon journey) be validly made (for example) on a Monday morning?

If the journey planner also provides it as a suggestion for travel on the Monday morning, then yes.

 

[1B85]

If the journey planner also provides it as a suggestion for travel on the Monday morning, then yes.

And if it doesn't? My point is, the journey planner suggesting this route at all is evidence of it being valid.

 

[najaB]

My point is, the journey planner suggesting this route at all is evidence of it being valid.

An itinerary validates a journey made on the trains specified therein using the ticket it was produced in association with.

 

[1B85]

An itinerary validates a journey made on the trains specified therein using the ticket it was produced in association with.

OK, let me put it another way. In the absence of easements or special regulations, what would make a journey on an Anytime ticket valid at one time of day, but not another?

 

[najaB]

OK, let me put it another way. In the absence of easements or special regulations, what would make a journey on an Anytime ticket valid at one time of day, but not another?

An Anytime ticket should be valid, as the name suggests, at any time as long as it's being used on a valid route, or on the trains specified by a recognised journey planner in conjunction with that ticket.

 

[nickswift99]

You may be able to produce an itinerary for your intended journey by selective use of via points. On a Sunday the timings may be such that the fastest route doesn't require this.

If this results in a single ticket being offered then your route is valid. If you purchase a ticket on this basis then you have a contract, but you really need to print the itinerary to support this if it's at all "unusual".

 

[1B85]

You may be able to produce an itinerary for your intended journey by selective use of via points. On a Sunday the timings may be such that the fastest route doesn't require this.

If this results in a single ticket being offered then your route is valid. If you purchase a ticket on this basis then you have a contract, but you really need to print the itinerary to support this if it's at all "unusual".

I have managed to get it to produce several A-D-C-B itineraries. But none including the same A-D-C trains I want to use...

 

[najaB]

I have managed to get it to produce several A-D-C-B itineraries. But none including the same A-D-C trains I want to use...

Then, to answer your question again, an itinerary validates a journey not a route.

 

[Starmill]

It would be next to impossible to argue that, with respect to tickets that don't have (relevant) time restrictions, one itinerary is valid because it is produced by a website, but another which is either in the other other direction or is in the same direction but at a different time using a train or combination of trains that take exactly the same route, is not somehow valid.

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who would like to try that though.

 

[najaB]

It would be next to impossible to argue that, with respect to tickets that don't have (relevant) time restrictions, one itinerary is valid because it is produced by a website, but another which is either in the other other direction or is in the same direction but at a different time using a train or combination of trains that take exactly the same route, is not somehow valid.

Where you are using an itinerary as proof that your journey is permitted where it otherwise appears to be invalid, the strength of that argument is somewhat reduced by being unable to generate that journey in any accredited journey planner.

 

[1B85]

Where you are using an itinerary as proof that your journey is permitted where it otherwise appears to be invalid, the strength of that argument is somewhat reduced by being unable to generate that journey in any accredited journey planner.

I can travel many valid routes using a combination of trains which don't appear in any accredited journey planner - particularly those which don't meet the minimum connection times programmed in to account for disabled/elderly travellers, those where a short walk is required between two nearby stations, or those where there is a long wait between connecting trains.

In this case, for my chosen time of travel there are good connections A-D-C, but there is a wait of over an hour for my C-B train. However, since I have no intention of travelling onwards from C to B, it doesn't matter to me.

 

[Merseysider]

All this talk of A-D-C-B whatever, doesn't really lend itself to an easily understandable discussion.

Is there any chance you could use station names?

 

[najaB]

I can travel many valid routes using a combination of trains which don't appear in any accredited journey planner...

Which has precisely what import when you want to travel on an otherwise invalid route? If the route is valid it doesn't matter what a journey planner says.

You want to travel on a route that is validated by dint of it being offered by a journey planner however, if challenged, you will be unable to produce a recognised itinerary that says you can travel on that train at that time.

Good luck with that.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Is a given route suggested by the journey planner ALWAYS valid? By which I mean at any time of the day (notwithstanding time restrictions on certain ticket types) or day of the week and in both directions?

We are talking Off-Peak and Anytime singles and returns, none of which have a valid only via/not valid via restriction.

Assume a set of hypothetical stations, A-B-C-D forming a rough quadrilateral, if you were to travel A-B-C-D-A, you would do so without passing through the same station twice except returning to your origin, A.

A ticket from A-B costs much less than a ticket from A-C of the same type. There are no direct trains from A-B or A-C.

Mostly the journey planners suggest a route A-B, but for various values of date and time, sometimes suggest a route encompassing A-D-C-B.

Can I purchase an A-B ticket and use it to travel A-D-C without ever having the intention to visit B at any time or on any date based on the journey planner occasionally recommending this route option, as stopping short is permitted on Off Peak and Anytime tickets?

Have you been able to trace the route, that you intend to use, in the Routeing Guide?

 

[1B85]

Have you been able to trace the route, that you intend to use, in the Routeing Guide?

Yes, I have - the routeing guide appears to indicate A-D-C-B would be valid by dint of it being on an approved combination of mapped routes, C is a routing point for B and the the A-C standard single being cheaper in NFM64 than the A-B standard single.

However, I want a day return journey, and there is a standard day return for A-B but not for A-C, merely a period return, making it significantly more expensive.

 

[1B85]

Which has precisely what import when you want to travel on an otherwise invalid route? If the route is valid it doesn't matter what a journey planner says.

You want to travel on a route that is validated by dint of it being offered by a journey planner however, if challenged, you will be unable to produce a recognised itinerary that says you can travel on that train at that time.

Good luck with that.

You'd have a point if the route was NEVER offered by any journey planner at any time. However, as I've said already, that is not the case.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes, I have - the routeing guide appears to indicate A-D-C-B would be valid by dint of it being on an approved combination of mapped routes, C is a routing point for B and the the A-C standard single being cheaper in NFM64 than the A-B standard single.

However, I want a day return journey, and there is a standard day return for A-B but not for A-C, merely a period return, making it significantly more expensive.

If the Routeing Guide shows it as a permitted route, it is a permitted route. Whilst certain ticket types are required for the fares check rule, the permitted routes are the same for all ticket types. The only thing that can change that is the routeing noted on the ticket.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I'd say that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that if a Journey Planner says that a route is OK, then it's OK at any time of the day, any day of the week or in the opposite direction (ticket time restrictions allowing). For example, I use a website to buy an open return and use the exact trains that it recommends sending me by a round-about route. I don't specify a return journey time because I don't know when I'm coming back. It would be crazy to tell me that I can't just turn up at the station and take the same route back home just because I haven't got a printed itinerary for my return journey.

(of course to actually get a website to sell me a return ticket, I'd probably have to specify a return journey time, even if I had no intention of actually travelling then)

 

[Romilly]

Unfortunately, it isn't as simple as that. For example, a particular route between two stations may not be the shortest route, and may not be a permitted mapped route, but there may be an occasional direct train via the particular route (on which the ticket is valid only because it is a direct train). The ticket would not be valid for travelling back along that particular route by a combination of two or more trains.

 

[bb21]

The original question is way too broad to answer without any further detail.

But if the route is permitted by the Routeing Guide anyway, then I'm not sure the answer to that question will add much value tbh.

Is your intention to look for a way that avoids potential hassle?

 

[lyndhurst25]

(reply to Romilly)

Agreed, but direct trains via roundabout routes, not mapped in the Routeing Guide, must be a pretty rare thing. How is "the man on on the street" is supposed to be aware of this idiosyncrasy? If NRE told me the way from A to B is via C, then I'd assume that the reverse was true, reguardless of how many changes of train were required. I wouldn't feel the need to check that NRE would give me an itinerary for the exact trains I intended to use on my return journey, especially if I wasn't certain at what time I would be travelling.

Far more common are perfectly valid routes that it is impossible to get journey planners to produce an intnerary for. At one time I was a frequent user of Liverpool to Lancaster tickets, breaking and resuming my journey to Clitheroe and Hellifield. The route is perfectly valid but with trains between Clitheroe and Hellifield only running on Sundays, no journey planner would give me an itinerary for the days I wanted to travel on. I'd expect that an itinerary for this journey on a Sunday would be accepted as evidence that it would be OK to travel by this route on any day of the week. Unfortunately, the only time I was questioned about it, I didn't have a printout with me.

 

[najaB]

Yes, I have - the routeing guide appears to indicate A-D-C-B would be valid by dint of it being on an approved combination of mapped routes...

You never said it was a mapped route. Now I don't understand your question. If it's a mapped route then it's a mapped route. Barring any negative easements then an Anytime ticket is valid unquestionably valid.

I've no idea what relevance journey planners have to the discussion.

 

[1B85]

You never said it was a mapped route. Now I don't understand your question. If it's a mapped route then it's a mapped route. Barring any negative easements then an Anytime ticket is valid unquestionably valid.

I've no idea what relevance journey planners have to the discussion.

The journey planners use the rules of the routeing guide, including mapped routes. The journey planner tells me that I may take such a journey, using such a route at a specific time of day, but it does not give me an itinerary for the time of day I wish to travel.

If the journey I was describing was incompatible with the routeing guide, then the journey planner wouldn't be showing me that journey at all, on any particular time of day, would it?

My question was whether a journey that was given in a journey planner at one particular time (where there were no direct trains) is always a valid route at any time or direction on an Anytime or Off Peak (time restrictions noted) ticket.

Either the hypothesis is true that a route given by a journey planner at one particular time is never invalid should you wish to make the journey at any other time or in the reverse direction, or it is false, and if false there would be an example of such a journey demonstrating so, wouldn't there?

If you are so sure of your argument that the hypothesis is not true, maybe you can tell me a route that is valid on an Anytime ticket at one time of the day but not valid at another time of day, or in the reverse direction if there are no written easements that apply in only one direction?

 

[najaB]

If the journey I was describing was incompatible with the routeing guide, then the journey planner wouldn't be showing me that journey at all, on any particular time of day, would it?

Therein lies the first flaw in your logic. There have been (and no doubt continue to be) examples of accredited journey planners offering itineraries over completely invalid routes. One notable example involved a journey from a station in Hampshire to a station in London via Inverness.

My question was whether a journey that was given in a journey planner at one particular time (where there were no direct trains) is always a valid route at any time or direction on an Anytime or Off Peak (time restrictions noted) ticket.

And that question has been answered a number of times.

If you are so sure of your argument that the hypothesis is not true, maybe you can tell me a route that is valid on an Anytime ticket at one time of the day but not valid at another time of day, or in the reverse direction if there are no written easements that apply in only one direction?

I don't happen to know of any current anomalies and wouldn't post them in public in any case if I did.

 

[bb21]

Waterloo - Westbury via Yeovil Junction is an example you are looking for. Permitted on a through ticket in one direction, not permitted in the other.

 

[yorkie]

Therein lies the first flaw in your logic. There have been (and no doubt continue to be) examples of accredited journey planners offering itineraries over completely invalid routes. One notable example involved a journey from a station in Hampshire to a station in London via Inverness.

This is true, though the resulting ticket held by the customer is valid when used as per the accompanying itinerary, in accordance with contract and consumer laws.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types.aspx

When you book your journey online, any ticket offered in connection with the timetable or itinerary produced by the journey planner will be accepted as a permitted route.

 

[najaB]

This is true, though the resulting ticket held by the customer is valid in accordance with the accompanying itinerary, in accordance with contract and consumer laws.

Which is what I thought the OP was asking about - a non-mapped route which is provided by a journey planner.