Are some heritage railways becoming too money orientated?

[polypody]

I appreciate to provide a service to the public heritage railways need a steady, regular income to maintain the infrastructure etc. However, over the past couple of years from articles I've read in various heritage rail-orientated magazines it seems for some of the larger lines the #1 priority is 'bums on seats' Don't get me wrong I like to see lines thriving but at the expense of a relaxing, hassle free day out? Comments from some railways seem to think it's great if the train is so full that passengers have to stand! If I want to stand on a train I'll just get the 8am train to Waterloo on a weekday! A few years back we were on a train on one of the 'largest' heritage railway where it was 'standing room only' We did have seats but the journey was spoilt by jostling passengers & on one occasion a guy standing in the aisle leaning right over us to look out of the window. No 'please' or 'excuse me'. I would mention that this particular day was not a 'special event' day. I expect many will disagree with me; we all have differing views & obviously my comment do not apply to all heritage lines but I think it's a pity that some have go so large that it's more of a business now than a leisure pursuit.

 

[Journeyman]

Heritage railways cost a huge amount of money to run, even though most of the staff are volunteers, and at the end of the day, if they don't bring in enough cash, they fold. Most of them make very, very little profit over and above their running costs, and any money they make is usually ploughed back into restoration projects.

I don't think the railway is to blame if a load of people all decide to visit at the same time - they can't really turn people away.

 

[bramling]

I appreciate to provide a service to the public heritage railways need a steady, regular income to maintain the infrastructure etc. However, over the past couple of years from articles I've read in various heritage rail-orientated magazines it seems for some of the larger lines the #1 priority is 'bums on seats' Don't get me wrong I like to see lines thriving but at the expense of a relaxing, hassle free day out? Comments from some railways seem to think it's great if the train is so full that passengers have to stand! If I want to stand on a train I'll just get the 8am train to Waterloo on a weekday! A few years back we were on a train on one of the 'largest' heritage railway where it was 'standing room only' We did have seats but the journey was spoilt by jostling passengers & on one occasion a guy standing in the aisle leaning right over us to look out of the window. No 'please' or 'excuse me'. I would mention that this particular day was not a 'special event' day. I expect many will disagree with me; we all have differing views & obviously my comment do not apply to all heritage lines but I think it's a pity that some have go so large that it's more of a business now than a leisure pursuit.

It doesn’t help that some railways, particularly those in scenic touristy areas, reserve large amounts of space for coach parties - which can result in considerable fluctuations in loadings from one trip to another. I can understand this brings valuable revenue in, however there needs to be a realisation that sufficient capacity needs to be provided, which to be fair some railways are fine with, but some are not. Personally I’d be happy if they at least publicised on a website which trips have coach bookings so the rest at least have the option of planning to avoid them.

As a general point many of these coach groups do tend to overwhelm some railways. Some will hold a train full of people for a late-running coach (experienced this several times in Wales this year) which I find out of order as it means everyone else’s plans and schedules are disrupted. I also get the impression many of the coach tourists aren’t all that interested in the train ride, being far more interested in the inevitable cafe and using the toilets - again overwhelming many cramped and small places.

Welsh Highland can be quite bad for overcrowding IME. This is exacerbated due to the sheer length of the journey - what should be a superb ride can become rather torturous, which is a shame. Snowdon Mountain Railway is also rather notorious for crowding - although to be fair it’s hard to see how they could operate much differently to how they do given the constraints of the infrastructure.

In general I agree with the point - heritage railways generally shouldn’t be planning on services being overcrowded. IMO it’s not by any means unreasonable to expect less than 100% seat occupancy on normal running days - people are paying for an experience rather than just A to B transport as on the mainline. Naturally they can’t be expected to get visitor predictions right every single time, but if trains are regularl crowded then in my view they’re not providing enough capacity.

 

[Spartacus]

Trouble is that most heritage lines are very limited in the length of trains they can run due to loop lengths (even after platforms have been extended) or gradients, and the frequency they can run services due to being generally single track with passing loops.

It’s a good point about coach parties though, it’s a bugger to find half the train sometimes is reserved.

One thing they can do is run open stock rather than compartments, though compartments are generally more popular with the public.

 

[Worf]

Coach parties are a necessary evil on heritage railways. They sometimes book months in advance, and regularly turn up for a ride whatever the weather, unlike "ordinary" tourists. Railways also rely on these groups to bring in much needed revenue at "shoulder" periods of the season, when there are few other passengers about, but therefore have to be tolerated at times where they are not really wanted. If railways are not fully booked at the height of the season, they will probably not survive for very long. "Enthusiasts" form a very small percentage of travelling passengers and often travel at reduced fares and are not particularly "big spenders" in shops/cafe. I used to run a heritage railway, and found that most enthusiasts had the desire and ability to visit at less busy times of the year, and usually avoided the busy school holiday periods.

 

[reddragon]

My heritage railway limits coach parties so that there are seats for the expected number of turn up of the day passengers. Many coaches are turned away.

Mostly, this goes well, occasionally it does not and often people do not like reserved carriages even if other carriages are empty further down the train.

Heritage railways need to be run as a business, to make enough money to keep the railway running or they will inevitably fail, fold and heritage items, tracks and railways will be lost.

Inevitably, some popular railways, near tourist sites in the summer holidays will be full & standing as they cannot afford rakes of summer only stock and extra volunteers do not exist even if track capacity does.

 

[richw]

Coach parties are a necessary evil on heritage railways. They sometimes book months in advance, and regularly turn up for a ride whatever the weather, unlike "ordinary" tourists. Railways also rely on these groups to bring in much needed revenue at "shoulder" periods of the season, when there are few other passengers about, but therefore have to be tolerated at times where they are not really wanted. If railways are not fully booked at the height of the season, they will probably not survive for very long. "Enthusiasts" form a very small percentage of travelling passengers and often travel at reduced fares and are not particularly "big spenders" in shops/cafe. I used to run a heritage railway, and found that most enthusiasts had the desire and ability to visit at less busy times of the year, and usually avoided the busy school holiday periods.

Our own experience of enthusiasts running heritage bus tours, is that the majority of enthusiasts only turn up when we advertise a special offer, reduced fare day etc.
On normal fares days they make up less than 1% of our passengers, but are often seen hiding in bushes with their camera and don’t ride.
I’ve found a way to get extra support in publicity and leaflet drops to local businesses and hotels- offer free tickets in exchange for a few hours voluntary help. I advertised for volunteers for 4 hours leafleting a few weeks ago, payment being 2 adult day tickets per volunteer for our tours. I ended up with 15 volunteers, mostly in the 16-21 age group. The ones I had a conversation with all gave the same story, their income was too low to afford to use the tours, but were all happy to give a few hours of their time in exchange for tickets.
Do heritage railways offer similar schemes, volunteer x number of hours for y number of free tickets

 

[nat67]

NYMR are is too money orientated but obviously has too do with running through to Whitby.

 

[bramling]

Coach parties are a necessary evil on heritage railways. They sometimes book months in advance, and regularly turn up for a ride whatever the weather, unlike "ordinary" tourists. Railways also rely on these groups to bring in much needed revenue at "shoulder" periods of the season, when there are few other passengers about, but therefore have to be tolerated at times where they are not really wanted. If railways are not fully booked at the height of the season, they will probably not survive for very long. "Enthusiasts" form a very small percentage of travelling passengers and often travel at reduced fares and are not particularly "big spenders" in shops/cafe. I used to run a heritage railway, and found that most enthusiasts had the desire and ability to visit at less busy times of the year, and usually avoided the busy school holiday periods.

I agree with much of this - as you say unfortunately they’re a necessary evil.

I think it’s a case of railways doing what they can to try and segregate this market from the day trippers as much as possible. The point about visiting at off-peak times is fine, however I’ve found this doesn’t always work in practice, as this is precisely the time what there are likely to be not many services running and perhaps shorter trains, thus causing the place to be overwhelmed when a relatively small number of coaches turn up.

As I say I’d be more than happy to try and plan to avoid, however it’s pot luck on many railways. You can turn up at what one would expect to be a quiet time and find things packed, then see the following trip run pretty much empty.

Necessary evil I don’t doubt but still a pain in the proverbial arse! Better that they have their own reserved accommodation though - the last thing anyone wants is them spreading out and everyone else having to listen to the ins and outs of ailments or what last week’s bargains were at market!

 

[swanhill41]

Whether us old enthusiasts like it or not,the coach party is the bedrock of a lot of heritage railway lines...Know the manager at Brief Encounter Carnforth ,and he will confirm that the best spenders are the coach parties.
And do you realise that the Llangollen and Festiniog in North Wales have up to 5/6 coaches of cruise passengers when ships tie up at Liverpool and Holyhead respectively...I have it on good authority that although they are basically decanted straight onto train and picked up at other end,the income particularly at quiter times of year is note to be refused.
Heritage railway lines are in the tourist business and as such the likes of Festiniog etc can be the backbone of the tourist business in that area,such as Porthmadoc.
To run successfully you have to be money orientated,as the option is a yard of scrap metal of interest to die hard nerds.

 

[bramling]

Whether us old enthusiasts like it or not,the coach party is the bedrock of a lot of heritage railway lines...Know the manager at Brief Encounter Carnforth ,and he will confirm that the best spenders are the coach parties.
And do you realise that the Llangollen and Festiniog in North Wales have up to 5/6 coaches of cruise passengers when ships tie up at Liverpool and Holyhead respectively...I have it on good authority that although they are basically decanted straight onto train and picked up at other end,the income particularly at quiter times of year is note to be refused.
Heritage railway lines are in the tourist business and as such the likes of Festiniog etc can be the backbone of the tourist business in that area,such as Porthmadoc.
To run successfully you have to be money orientated,as the option is a yard of scrap metal of interest to die hard nerds.

As I say, I understand the issues, a pain though it is at times. The Ffestiniog generally isn’t too much of a problem, perhaps barring queues for the toilet, which personally doesn’t affect me too much as it tends to be more an issue for the ladies! They tend to run long trains, and from an enthusiast point of view provided there’s an old lock-up or two on the Ffestiniog end of the train then all is well...

I do often get the feeling that they could often not bother with the train ride and just visit the shop/cafe, as I do get the feeling many of the coach loads aren’t that bothered about the train ride - judging by all the moaning about uncomfortable seats, draughts, bumpy ride, long walk from coach to platform, queue for the toilet (whose fault is that?!)...

One which irritated me a little was the Llanberis Lake Railway. A weekday in May, not a school holiday or anything, so it’s not unreasonable to turn up in the mid afternoon and expect it not too busy. The train was completely packed, with IIRC three out of four carriages reserved for coach parties. A few people were turned away. Not impressed. Then to take the biscuit many of the coach loads were moaning and saying it “was hardly worth getting off the coach” as the trip was short, didn’t go round the whole lake, and not everyone was able to sit on the lake side. Completely ruined the experience for everyone else.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Our own experience of enthusiasts running heritage bus tours, is that the majority of enthusiasts only turn up when we advertise a special offer, reduced fare day etc.
On normal fares days they make up less than 1% of our passengers, but are often seen hiding in bushes with their camera and don’t ride.
I’ve found a way to get extra support in publicity and leaflet drops to local businesses and hotels- offer free tickets in exchange for a few hours voluntary help. I advertised for volunteers for 4 hours leafleting a few weeks ago, payment being 2 adult day tickets per volunteer for our tours. I ended up with 15 volunteers, mostly in the 16-21 age group. The ones I had a conversation with all gave the same story, their income was too low to afford to use the tours, but were all happy to give a few hours of their time in exchange for tickets.
Do heritage railways offer similar schemes, volunteer x number of hours for y number of free tickets

All our volunteers, after a minimum number of attendances, receive their staff ID card which gives us free travel on all trains on non-event days - though I've never had the last bit enforced, we all know each other and work together at the end of the day. We also get sent two vouchers for pairs of Day Rovers valid at all events every Christmas, as a thank you - that we're supposed to exchange when we go riding on Gala days. These normally get changed for tickets on days I have my family with me, they use the tickets, I travel on my pass.

 

[tiptoptaff]

As I say, I understand the issues, a pain though it is at times. The Ffestiniog generally isn’t too much of a problem, perhaps barring queues for the toilet, which personally doesn’t affect me too much as it tends to be more an issue for the ladies! They tend to run long trains, and from an enthusiast point of view provided there’s an old lock-up or two on the Ffestiniog end of the train then all is well...

I do often get the feeling that they could often not bother with the train ride and just visit the shop/cafe, as I do get the feeling many of the coach loads aren’t that bothered about the train ride - judging by all the moaning about uncomfortable seats, draughts, bumpy ride, long walk from coach to platform, queue for the toilet (whose fault is that?!)...

One which irritated me a little was the Llanberis Lake Railway. A weekday in May, not a school holiday or anything, so it’s not unreasonable to turn up in the mid afternoon and expect it not too busy. The train was completely packed, with IIRC three out of four carriages reserved for coach parties. A few people were turned away. Not impressed. Then to take the biscuit many of the coach loads were moaning and saying it “was hardly worth getting off the coach” as the trip was short, didn’t go round the whole lake, and not everyone was able to sit on the lake side. Completely ruined the experience for everyone else.

Next time, pay the £20 and do it on the loco

 

[SussexMan]

I’ve found a way to get extra support in publicity and leaflet drops to local businesses and hotels- offer free tickets in exchange for a few hours voluntary help. I advertised for volunteers for 4 hours leafleting a few weeks ago, payment being 2 adult day tickets per volunteer for our tours. I ended up with 15 volunteers, mostly in the 16-21 age group.

Be careful.... could be seen as a Benefit in Kind and therefore the "volunteer" becomes a worker and subject to the National Minimum Wage.

https://www.gov.uk/volunteering/pay-and-expenses

 

[4141]

Surely if you support preserved railways and want to see them flourish, then you should be happy every time a coach pulls up. The bulk of preserved lines run as and are publicised as tourist attractions and need to attract the maximum numbers. I could understand the moans if those at the top were living high on the profits, but I can't see any evidence of that. Put simply, rely on just anoraks and your line will wither...

 

[kje7812]

Do heritage railways offer similar schemes, volunteer x number of hours for y number of free tickets

For us, it's a staff pass the next year, which can be used on galas as well as normal days, and 3 free tickets for normal days.
Some departments have a minimal number of turns but that usually also ties into the minimal to keeping competency. Others are just if you turn up and do some meaningful work, then you can have the pass.

 

[mpthomson]

NYMR are is too money orientated but obviously has too do with running through to Whitby.

Not sure how something that has to act as a business to ensure its survival can be 'too money orientated'. How do you mean? Is it the wrong sort of tourist? I'd be willing to bet that foreign tourists and coach parties spend far more money on the ancillary side of life (catering, souvenir tat etc) than the equivalent number of 'proper' rail enthusiasts, thus helping the railway thrive and survive.

 

[shredder1]

They need to be money orientated unfortunately and its a privilledge to have so many in the UK, good luck to them.

 

[DarloRich]

Not sure how something that has to act as a business to ensure its survival can be 'too money orientated'. How do you mean? Is it the wrong sort of tourist? I'd be willing to bet that foreign tourists and coach parties spend far more money on the ancillary side of life (catering, souvenir tat etc) than the equivalent number of 'proper' rail enthusiasts, thus helping the railway thrive and survive.

but they aren't bothered about wheel arrangements or the exact shade of green used in the paint!

( agreed btw!)

 

[Journeyman]

Surely if you support preserved railways and want to see them flourish, then you should be happy every time a coach pulls up. The bulk of preserved lines run as and are publicised as tourist attractions and need to attract the maximum numbers. I could understand the moans if those at the top were living high on the profits, but I can't see any evidence of that. Put simply, rely on just anoraks and your line will wither...

You're absolutely right - the enthusiast market alone is nowhere near big enough to keep these places going, especially because most enthusiasts will generally only visit on steam or diesel gala days when they'll be guaranteed favourite traction, and then they'll buy rovers which they'll max out by using all day, limiting the number sold and the income generated. The large numbers that attend on these days can possibly make enthusiasts think there's far more of them than there actually are.

A lot of anoraks seem to think they have a divine right to an entire compartment to themselves and resent the hell out of normals visiting, but without the normals there would be no money to restore their beloved ex-Barry wrecks to service. There seems to be an assumption that volunteer labour makes heritage railways cheap to run, but they're absolutely not. It might look like "premier league" heritage railways are coining it in and making shedloads of money, but they're really not - the whole heritage sector is really feeling the squeeze as people are much more careful with what they spend their money on these days, and there's a huge number of competing attractions out there.

Unless trains run at least moderately full, sustaining long-term operations, developing good facilities and keeping stock in decent running order is almost impossible.

I was at the Epping & Ongar Railway on Sunday afternoon, which was the first time I'd seen it since LU days. While it was impressive and enjoyable to see what they've achieved, it was rainy and clearly that had affected visitor numbers - the place was almost deserted. Throw in a couple of wet summers in a row and these places are often in real trouble. You can't afford to turn away the dead-cert pre-planned business of a coach tour if it's absolutely chucking down and everyone else has stayed at home.

 

[broadgage]

I live near the West Somerset Railway, and feel that in general that they cope well at busy times.
I have observed the odd bit of gross overcrowding, but not that often.

It sometimes seems to me that the common policy of charging the same fare on every day might not be the best option.
Perhaps "high season" and off season fares might be better ?

Both the WSR and some other heritage lines would benefit from longer trains when circumstances permit.

Some of the longer heritage lines are becoming a mode of transport from A to B, in addition to being an attraction in their own right. A fair bit of the Summer traffic on the WSR seems to be families spending a day at the seaside in Minehead.
Such passengers might be better served by a faster and non stop service. I feel that permission should be granted to run at 40MPH rather than at 25, subject to certain conditions such as steel bodied coaches, air brakes, and central door locking.
A preserved HST running at 40MPH, non stop to Minehead, followed by a steam hauled all stations train would satisfy both markets, and provide useful extra capacity.
In the return direction, an HST could leave Minehead 40 or 45 minutes after the last steam hauled all stations service, it would gradually catch up the stopping service and arrive at Bishops Lydeard not long after the steam service.
Families would get an extra hour beside the sea, and enthusiasts could still enjoy the authentic steam experience.
Some would consider that an HST on a heritage line is "not right", but less us remember that they are borderline heritage, the first ones ran only a few years after the end of BR steam.

 

[4141]

I live near the West Somerset Railway, and feel that in general that they cope well at busy times.
I have observed the odd bit of gross overcrowding, but not that often.

It sometimes seems to me that the common policy of charging the same fare on every day might not be the best option.
Perhaps "high season" and off season fares might be better ?

Both the WSR and some other heritage lines would benefit from longer trains when circumstances permit.

Some of the longer heritage lines are becoming a mode of transport from A to B, in addition to being an attraction in their own right. A fair bit of the Summer traffic on the WSR seems to be families spending a day at the seaside in Minehead.
Such passengers might be better served by a faster and non stop service. I feel that permission should be granted to run at 40MPH rather than at 25, subject to certain conditions such as steel bodied coaches, air brakes, and central door locking.
A preserved HST running at 40MPH, non stop to Minehead, followed by a steam hauled all stations train would satisfy both markets, and provide useful extra capacity.
In the return direction, an HST could leave Minehead 40 or 45 minutes after the last steam hauled all stations service, it would gradually catch up the stopping service and arrive at Bishops Lydeard not long after the steam service.
Families would get an extra hour beside the sea, and enthusiasts could still enjoy the authentic steam experience.
Some would consider that an HST on a heritage line is "not right", but less us remember that they are borderline heritage, the first ones ran only a few years after the end of BR steam.

I hope this thread doesn't turn into a timetablist's fantasy, and I have to disagree in the main - a ride on a vintage train - preferably steam hauled - is to many, I'd wager, part of the holiday experience. not so sure an HST would have the same allure - for a few years yet, anyway...

 

[Shenandoah]

I live near the West Somerset Railway, and feel that in general that they cope well at busy times.
I have observed the odd bit of gross overcrowding, but not that often.

It sometimes seems to me that the common policy of charging the same fare on every day might not be the best option.
Perhaps "high season" and off season fares might be better ?

Both the WSR and some other heritage lines would benefit from longer trains when circumstances permit.

Some of the longer heritage lines are becoming a mode of transport from A to B, in addition to being an attraction in their own right. A fair bit of the Summer traffic on the WSR seems to be families spending a day at the seaside in Minehead.
Such passengers might be better served by a faster and non stop service. I feel that permission should be granted to run at 40MPH rather than at 25, subject to certain conditions such as steel bodied coaches, air brakes, and central door locking.
A preserved HST running at 40MPH, non stop to Minehead, followed by a steam hauled all stations train would satisfy both markets, and provide useful extra capacity.
In the return direction, an HST could leave Minehead 40 or 45 minutes after the last steam hauled all stations service, it would gradually catch up the stopping service and arrive at Bishops Lydeard not long after the steam service.
Families would get an extra hour beside the sea, and enthusiasts could still enjoy the authentic steam experience.
Some would consider that an HST on a heritage line is "not right", but less us remember that they are borderline heritage, the first ones ran only a few years after the end of BR steam.

Mention here is made of HST's. This scheme - apparently feared by many on the WSR - is something along the lines suggested in the above post.
http://www.mineheadraillinkgroup.org.uk/latest-news

 

[Journeyman]

a ride on a vintage train - preferably steam hauled - is to many, I'd wager, part of the holiday experience. not so sure an HST would have the same allure - for a few years yet, anyway...

Absolutely - anything even remotely resembling something currently operating on, or recently withdrawn from the main line will go down like a lead balloon with most non-anoraks. People go to heritage railways for Ye Olde Golden Age of Steam, and they will be very annoyed if they don't get it. If they want to get to Minehead cheaply and quickly they'll drive or get the bus.

 

[broadgage]

During the summer season, the bus is often a lot slower than the train, and driving can be slower due to congestion.

 

[richw]

Be careful.... could be seen as a Benefit in Kind and therefore the "volunteer" becomes a worker and subject to the National Minimum Wage.

https://www.gov.uk/volunteering/pay-and-expenses

Thanks for highlighting this, something I’d never considered!

 

[43096]

Mention here is made of HST's. This scheme - apparently feared by many on the WSR - is something along the lines suggested in the above post.
http://www.mineheadraillinkgroup.org.uk/latest-news

Not sure why they appear to have a Class 465 Networker as their logo!?

 

[Derbyshire Gra]

Absolutely - anything even remotely resembling something currently operating on, or recently withdrawn from the main line will go down like a lead balloon with most non-anoraks. People go to heritage railways for Ye Olde Golden Age of Steam, and they will be very annoyed if they don't get it. If they want to get to Minehead cheaply and quickly they'll drive or get the bus.

Which is absolutely NOT the experience we find when we run the prototype HST power car and Mark IIIs at Ruddington. Forgetting enthusiasts, many members of the public are very happy to find a comfortable well presented air-conditioned vehicle to travel on and frequently reminisce about memories of these trains encountered over the past forty years. Well over half of the public now in the UK have never experienced main-line steam, but most can relate to more modern vehicles - even when some are still running. Add on some history - such as speed records and the mileage the vehicles have actually run in their lives, and the average Joe Public really loves it. There will always be a desire to see steam (and why not?) but don't believe that is the only reason non-enthusiasts will visit a line - they are usually happy to enjoy whatever experience is available.

 

[Kettledrum]

A number of heritage railways often seem to have some capacity that's not fully utilised. Even the peak summer timetables sometimes have long lay overs at a teminus. Additional trains are run at gala days etc, so at some heritage railways, the platforms, signalling, etc could adapt and a special train laid on if there was an unexpected surge in passengers. Obviously requires a driver, loco/stock or DMU to be available, but there are some circumstances when I'm sure I've seen an additional service or two being slipped into the timetable on a particular weekend.

 

[kje7812]

Obviously requires a driver, loco/stock or DMU to be available

And a guard, and maybe a signalman if running an extra train requires a signal box to be open which otherwise would be switched out.