Are the class 220/221 voyagers the worst trains on Britain's rails?

[RobShipway]

Lessons do appear to have been learned as the specification for the trains under IEP could be summed up as "not like a Voyager" for many items.

But the above seating provision for luggage on the IEP trains are nowhere as need as good I believe as the MK3's, where you could at least put a suitcase on the racking above the seats. Now, you will be lucky if you can fit a rucksack in the above seat racking, such that suitcases have to go in the provide luggage rack area which takes out even more seats.

On both Meridians and the Adelante's, lessons do seem to have been learned but the luggage areas above still do not seem to be able to take a normal sized suitcase, such that you have to place it in the floor provided luggage racks which are not that big usually.

To me it is weird that the floor luggage rack area on a class 166 from Reading to Gatwick has more space on it, then the similar rack areas in Voyagers, Meridians or Adelante's. From what I have seen of the IEP trains, they do not seem to have any better luggage space.

I must point out though that I do think that the IEP trains will be good trains for the routes that they will be going too, but I doubt a family of four travelling say on holiday from Reading to Penzance would be using them due to the amount of luggage that they would not be able to take on the train which is why quite a few people I think will still find easier to use a car.

 

[EM2]

On both Meridians and the Adelante's, lessons do seem to have been learned but the luggage areas above still do not seem to be able to take a normal sized suitcase, such that you have to place it in the floor provided luggage racks which are not that big usually.

I have travelled on Meridians a number of times with a suitcase holding enough for a fortnight's holiday, and it's easily slid under the seat.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

XC will have to have a new franchise contract within a year.
There are no pointers to what DfT will let them have up to 2019, but retaining their current Voyagers seems the inevitable baseline.
Theoretically they could do a Chiltern on VT and take VT's current Voyagers from 2017, but it doesn't seem likely as there is no alternative for VT.
Unless DfT lets XC acquire new stock, it will all have to wait till the winning ICWC 2017-2026 bidder tells us its rolling stock plans late next year.
If Voyagers are replaced it will then take a couple of years to build something else, so you are up to 2019 on that basis anyway.
So 2019/20 sounds like the next practical opportunity for an XC stock shuffle, taking more 22x from WC or EM.

Correction: I see VT has signed a contract with Bombardier for Voyager maintenance until March 2019, not the March 2017 date which is the end date for the current WC franchise.
This must mean that the DfT has decided that whatever else happens, the Voyager fleet (VT and XC) will stay allocated as now until March 2019.

 

[Haydn1971]

I have travelled on Meridians a number of times with a suitcase holding enough for a fortnight's holiday, and it's easily slid under the seat.

Clearly, you are male ! Haha

 

[TheKnightWho]

But the above seating provision for luggage on the IEP trains are nowhere as need as good I believe as the MK3's, where you could at least put a suitcase on the racking above the seats. Now, you will be lucky if you can fit a rucksack in the above seat racking, such that suitcases have to go in the provide luggage rack area which takes out even more seats.

On both Meridians and the Adelante's, lessons do seem to have been learned but the luggage areas above still do not seem to be able to take a normal sized suitcase, such that you have to place it in the floor provided luggage racks which are not that big usually.

To me it is weird that the floor luggage rack area on a class 166 from Reading to Gatwick has more space on it, then the similar rack areas in Voyagers, Meridians or Adelante's. From what I have seen of the IEP trains, they do not seem to have any better luggage space.

I must point out though that I do think that the IEP trains will be good trains for the routes that they will be going too, but I doubt a family of four travelling say on holiday from Reading to Penzance would be using them due to the amount of luggage that they would not be able to take on the train which is why quite a few people I think will still find easier to use a car.

I find it amazing that so many people seem to know exactly how the IEPs will be used and what they're like to travel on when they're barely into testing...

 

[RobShipway]

I find it amazing that so many people seem to know exactly how the IEPs will be used and what they're like to travel on when they're barely into testing...

Well, I have seen Videos of the inside of the IEP set that is currently in this country and have seen the drawings for the IEP carriages as well, within any shelves that are above the seats you would not be able to place a standard size suitcase. The only place perhaps, as per the meridians is going to be in the gaps between the seats.

 

[DJH1971]

Nope, Pacers are... The end haha

Seconded

 

[66Yorks]

Seconded

Thirded

 

[cjmillsnun]

On both Meridians and the Adelante's, lessons do seem to have been learned but the luggage areas above still do not seem to be able to take a normal sized suitcase, such that you have to place it in the floor provided luggage racks which are not that big usually.

Considering Adelantes were in build at the same time as Voyagers, I doubt any lessons were learned.

It was more a case of a different manufacturer making to a different spec.

 

[The Ham]

Well, I have seen Videos of the inside of the IEP set that is currently in this country and have seen the drawings for the IEP carriages as well, within any shelves that are above the seats you would not be able to place a standard size suitcase. The only place perhaps, as per the meridians is going to be in the gaps between the seats.

How do you define "a standard size suitcase"? Hand luggage size or the large wheeled bags which you could fit a person into if you needed to?

The latter wouldn't fit in the boot of many smaller cars (polo sized) and would need to be stored in the luggage rakes which the class 800/801's will have at the end of the coaches (clearly shown on the draft layouts). If hand luggage, then I would suggest that determining how easy they would fit from a video would be difficult at the very least.

 

[yorksrob]

But in my experience, the design of overhead luggage storage has been getting progressively worse over the past few decades. I have a large, flat travelling bag with is of a design with a very low centre of gravity when full and unlikely to fall out anywhere. Nevertheless, whereas this fits with ease into the overhead racks of trains built into the 90's, anything more recent, these racks seem to be either too high or angled so as to make it impossible or very difficult to fit it in. Much like the fashion for rock hard seats, why on earth would I expect IEP to buck this trend?

I rather suspect that the design is part of a conspiracy to stop us putting larger items of luggage in the rack due to arse covering - sorry - "health and safety" rather than a rash of poor design.

 

[pemma]

Considering Adelantes were in build at the same time as Voyagers, I doubt any lessons were learned.

It was more a case of a different manufacturer making to a different spec.

Indeed. Probably just a case of tilting being a consideration for the Voyager design but not for the 180s or 222s.

 

[Haydn1971]

I rather suspect that the design is part of a conspiracy to stop us putting larger items of luggage in the rack due to arse covering - sorry - "health and safety" rather than a rash of poor design.

Would that be the same health and safety nonsense that's removed smog from our cities, stopped kids from being sent up chimneys, removed asbestos from new builds, limited working hours to something half reasonable and much much more that ultimately costs society less in National Insurance costs via the NHS ?

The racks are smaller to reduce the risk to your back attached with lifting over heavy objects to a point beyond where the body cannot adequately deal with the stress of the load and also reduces the risk of being clobbered by a 10kg load falling and knocking an unsuspecting passenger.

 

[yorksrob]

The racks are smaller to reduce the risk to your back attached with lifting over heavy objects to a point beyond where the body cannot adequately deal with the diminutivethe load and also reduces the risk of being clobbered by a 10kg load falling and knocking an unsuspecting passenger.

Ah, so you admit it, it is down to health and safety nonsense then!

Given the railway hasn't been brought to a standstill by thousands of luggage related injuries on the thousands of carriages brought into service before the late 1990's, I would say that the standards that lead to diminutive overhead luggage storage on modern trains serve no practical purpose whatsoever.

 

[Haydn1971]

Ah, so you admit it, it is down to health and safety nonsense then!

Health and safety is only "nonsense" to people stuck in the past with a view that the world was a better place when 7000 people a year where killed on our roads, when a bad back was a manly thing to have and a early death was a mark of a good working man. Thankfully health and safety reduces the risks you face daily and reduce the severity of your injuries. Ultimately providing less of a burden on society in terms of social security, healthcare costs and importantly the strain that "your" poor health would ultimately place upon your family and friends.

Given the railway hasn't been brought to a standstill by thousands of luggage related injuries on the thousands of carriages brought into service before the late 1990's, I would say that the standards that lead to diminutive overhead luggage storage on modern trains serve no practical purpose whatsoever.

That's democracy, you are entitled to your backward views - my view would be that reducing the size/volume/weight of what you carry daily is improving your personal longer term health

 

[387star]

Regarding XC voyagers:

Are there any pics of the bike/luggage provision in coach d? I have seen few pictures

Is the luggage provision well used and is it announced?why not place an external luggage symbol on the outside of the train?

Is it better having the bikes upright?

I believe some seats don't have reservations as the seating was increased by removal of tables and relocating luggage stacks. Was legroom reduced?

Are the magazine pockets on the backs of seats missed? Also being removed now from aga mk3s

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Regarding XC voyagers:

Are there any pics of the bike/luggage provision in coach d? I have seen few pictures

Is the luggage provision well used and is it announced?why not place an external luggage symbol on the outside of the train?

Is it better having the bikes upright?

I believe some seats don't have reservations as the seating was increased by removal of tables and relocating luggage stacks. Was legroom reduced?

Are the magazine pockets on the backs of seats missed? Also being removed now from aga mk3s

Don't know if it's coach D but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_221#/media/File:British_Rail_Class_221_bicycles.JPG

Doesn't look like the space could be used for any sort of large luggage

 

[yorksrob]

Health and safety is only "nonsense" to people stuck in the past with a view that the world was a better place when 7000 people a year where killed on our roads, when a bad back was a manly thing to have and a early death was a mark of a good working man. Thankfully health and safety reduces the risks you face daily and reduce the severity of your injuries. Ultimately providing less of a burden on society in terms of social security, healthcare costs and importantly the strain that "your" poor health would ultimately place upon your family and friends.




That's democracy, you are entitled to your backward views - my view would be that reducing the size/volume/weight of what you carry daily is improving your personal longer term health

Asbestos and heavy traffic kill people. Overhead luggage doesn't (unless it's of the exploding variety - in which case the size of the rack wouldn't make the slightest difference anyways ).

I dare say reducing the size and weight of the luggage I have to carry would improve my health and wellbeing, as no doubt would retiring to the Cornish Riviera with my own personal butler. However, the reality is that I am likely just going to have to carry on working, which means carrying my own luggage. In this case it would be a lot better for my health and wellbeing if they were to stop making every day activities needlessly awkward.

Plus, how does having badly designed racks stop people carrying heavy luggage anyway? You could possibly fit something small and heavy in there but not something relatively light but bulky.

 

[387star]

Don't know if it's coach D but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_221#/media/File:British_Rail_Class_221_bicycles.JPG

Doesn't look like the space could be used for any sort of large luggage

Where there is a single bike space what is that jutting out cupboard for? Electrical presumably

 

[Haydn1971]

Plus, how does having badly designed racks stop people carrying heavy luggage anyway? You could possibly fit something small and heavy in there but not something relatively light but bulky.

Well you are the one blaming it on health and safety - you tell me why health and safety is to blame

 

[RobShipway]

How do you define "a standard size suitcase"? Hand luggage size or the large wheeled bags which you could fit a person into if you needed to?

The latter wouldn't fit in the boot of many smaller cars (polo sized) and would need to be stored in the luggage rakes which the class 800/801's will have at the end of the coaches (clearly shown on the draft layouts). If hand luggage, then I would suggest that determining how easy they would fit from a video would be difficult at the very least.

Standard suitcase size is a case that can fit a suit in it without having to fold it over two to three times such as http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00050/Centenary_Red_Tan_50406b.jpg.

This to me is what standard suitcase size is or certainly was during the 1970's/1980's when I grew up.

 

[CosherB]

Ah, so you admit it, it is down to health and safety nonsense then!

Given the railway hasn't been brought to a standstill by thousands of luggage related injuries on the thousands of carriages brought into service before the late 1990's, I would say that the standards that lead to diminutive overhead luggage storage on modern trains serve no practical purpose whatsoever.

You should try and sit in front of a panel of HSE inspectors as part of a workplace investigation. Then you'll know what "nonsense" really means ...... :roll:

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Is the luggage provision well used and is it announced?why not place an external luggage symbol on the outside of the train?

Never looked in it, but on many of my 'Voyager' journeys it is announced that coach D has more space for luggage.

Is it better having the bikes upright?

Takes up less space, so yes. Scotrail 156s have had that style of rack for quite some time now. The alternative 'space saver' is like some Northern 142s, where a shelf is placed above the cycle storage area, for larger luggage items, but I often find they get filled with child buggies and luggage that people can't/won't lift onto the shelf.

I believe some seats don't have reservations as the seating was increased by removal of tables and relocating luggage stacks. Was legroom reduced?

All trains have unreservable seats (except when there are large special events happening). XC also has short notice reservable seats.

 

[Kite159]

The overhead luggage racks on a 222 is worst than a 220/221 I've found. For example my rucksack yesterday would quite happily be placed in the luggage racks, but it wouldn't go into the racks on a 222 without a push.

Coach D has more space for luggage, I believe it is announced at Basingstoke [who also announces which way round the things are], the seats without screens in coach D are when XC removed the little shop area?