Are ticket barriers at one station an effective deterrent against fare evasion?

[Agent_Squash]

The school kids at Ulverston station have been subject to a revenue block by Northern according to this article: https://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/1735...ng-schoolchildren-at-ulverston-train-station/

A SENIOR official for Northern has explained why dozens of schoolchildren were forced to miss a train home after finishing school.

Up to 30 children, some with passes and tickets, had to wait over an hour for the next service because they could not get to the train in time.

Guards from the rail company carried out revenue checks on Thursday following concerns that schoolchildren were travelling without a ticket.

The chaos meant that pupils who already had tickets could not board the train in time.

Huseyin Varol, whose 13-year-old son missed the train having already paid, said Northern need to provide a system to allow pupils who have tickets to board the train without a problem.

He said: "The problem is that the situation was a free-for-all.

"My son, who is small for his age, had to queue up with pupils who had not paid, although he already had.

"This meant he could not get to the front in time to show the guard he had a ticket for the train.

"Northern need to have a system in place at the station where pupils who have pre-paid can show their ticket and board the train without queueing.

"I had to drive from Barrow to pick him up, so we had to wait nearly 40 minutes."

Chris Jackson, Regional Director for Northern, said: “We carried out revenue checks at Ulverston station yesterday (Thursday) following concerns from the local community regarding ticketless travel by schoolchildren.

“During the checks, those customers with valid tickets were able to board, whilst those without were asked to buy a ticket before boarding. Those without the ability to buy a ticket went back to school.

Chris added: “All children with valid tickets or passes were told to make their way directly to the train, but some chose to stay behind and wait with friends for the later service.

“All children who waited for the later train were allowed to stay in the booking hall and a member of Northern staff stayed with them until the last child had left the station.”

Barrow station now has barriers - while surely this would catch most of the students that this revenue block was intended to catch out, Roose (less than a mile away) seems a lot busier most mornings - so it doesn't really seem like the barriers are deterring much but instead just moving the issue a mile up the road.

There's also rumblings that the students couldn't actually buy a ticket in time to board the train (the local school finishes 1530 - train departs 1543) - I personally have no sympathy for people who haven't got the ticket for a return leg of the journey considering the fares are cheaper, but maybe the design of the station itself doesn't lend itself to a revenue block?

Also - as part of the Connect enhancements, is Ulverston meant to be getting barriers of its own?

 

[yorkie]

The chaos meant that pupils who already had tickets could not board the train in time.

If this is true, it's appalling behaviour by Northern, who show utter contempt for their passengers on a regular basis.

They are not just anti-passenger but also anti-rail as they are putting people off rail travel, this will also impact on other companies in the rail industry.

That said it is difficult to know who is really telling the truth here, and to what extend Northern's actions were reasonable or unreasonable without knowing the full information or even being there. So all I sadly I am well aware of multiple wrongdoing by Northern on many other occasions (having witnessed all sorts my self) and, in contrast, do not have any particular reason to believe the parent is not telling the truth, at least at this stage.

I personally have no sympathy for people who haven't got the ticket for a return leg of the journey

But unless you have some evidence, you can't really accuse someone who is making a journey of not being on their outward journey but actually being on a return portion of a return journey, could you?

In fact, I once tried to buy a ticket, on my return journey, to cover my outward journey from Poppleton to Starbeck but my request to purchase a ticket to cover my outward journey was ignored.

 

[Bantamzen]

The school kids at Ulverston station have been subject to a revenue block by Northern according to this article: https://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/1735...ng-schoolchildren-at-ulverston-train-station/

Barrow station now has barriers - while surely this would catch most of the students that this revenue block was intended to catch out, Roose (less than a mile away) seems a lot busier most mornings - so it doesn't really seem like the barriers are deterring much but instead just moving the issue a mile up the road.

There's also rumblings that the students couldn't actually buy a ticket in time to board the train (the local school finishes 1530 - train departs 1543) - I personally have no sympathy for people who haven't got the ticket for a return leg of the journey considering the fares are cheaper, but maybe the design of the station itself doesn't lend itself to a revenue block?

Also - as part of the Connect enhancements, is Ulverston meant to be getting barriers of its own?

This station is not alone with its problems, Frizinghall has a couple of large schools close by, many who travel in from the Aire & Wharfe valleys. In the early evening peak this can mean a very large number of children (sometimes into the hundreds) all trying to board a couple of trains (16:11 Bradford Forster Square - Skipton & 16:16 Bradford Forster Square - Ilkley) as both schools finish around the same time. Not only does it cause some serious congestion on the platform & delays to services, but invariably leads to some of them trying to avoid paying. I've witnessed this far too often, and sometimes with quite large numbers trying to avoid paying. On one occasion a guard had seemingly had enough, and on arrival at Baildon he held the service without opening doors until he had collected all the fares in at least on carriage, and there were over a dozen just in one of the 4 cars of the 333 in service). Add that level of evasion up over time, and it will be quite a bit. A similar situation, albeit on a smaller scale exists from Apperley Bridge.

So the answer has been RPIs at Frizinghall to control access & try to ensure all have valid tickets, with additional checks at Shipley as some kids catch earlier services & change there. Generally it seems to work, but it is still surprising just how many kids don't seem to have a valid ticket, especially somewhere like West Yorkshire where season tickets are readily & easily available. I don't know if the station in question is quite so easy to manage as Frizinghal (just two entrances to the North bound platform with most using the Frizinghall Road entrance)l, Shipley certainly isn't but generally the RPI blocks seem to work OK and trains run with minimum disruption most days.

 

[[.n]]

This type of chaos is seen at Brockenhurst when they do revenue blocades to catch the College students - I've seen plenty of people (with tickets) miss a train because there wasn't an effective queueing system in place. It would be far simpler (and I've suggested it) to have the blocade in the two car parks with a barriered area, no to mention this would make it less obvious is was happening and stop students just jumping back on the train and going to the next stop!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's also rumblings that the students couldn't actually buy a ticket in time to board the train (the local school finishes 1530 - train departs 1543) - I personally have no sympathy for people who haven't got the ticket for a return leg of the journey considering the fares are cheaper, but maybe the design of the station itself doesn't lend itself to a revenue block?

Other than the very odd few who get a lift to school but not from, there is no reason why a schoolchild should not have a season ticket, it is much cheaper than buying singles or even returns. Perhaps this itself needs more publicity? Possibly some don't know that there is that option and that it is cheaper, and importantly that a lost monthly can be replaced?

It's a bit poor that they did not put on adequate staff to ensure those who were being honest were not disadvantaged, but really this is an issue caused by the parents who are by still providing the cash for two singles are tacitly supporting (as you must be thick not to know it goes on) their kids spending the fare on something else (i.e. sweets etc) and fare dodging the train journey. And even if they don't know the above, they should be providing the cost of a day return and insisting that is purchased in the morning, or even purchase a week's worth online for them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But unless you have some evidence, you can't really accuse someone who is making a journey of not being on their outward journey but actually being on a return portion of a return journey, could you?

While some won't be (e.g. some will get a lift to school because the start is similarly timed as most people starting work but possibly not home) the majority will be making a return journey each day and should as such have a season ticket which will save them a good amount of money. So while I don't think you could PF (is it a PF station?) or prosecute, I think there is enough evidence to talk of schoolkids fare dodging in that manner.

I wonder if a lot of parents don't know a season ticket is an option which would prevent their child spending their fare money on sweets. When I was a kid it was probably about a 50-50 split as to who did and who didn't, I reckon, and most of those who didn't paid for cash singles[1] when challenged and walked off when not.

[1] In those days no tickets were issued if you paid a Merseyrail inspector cash on arrival, so we can possibly hazard a guess as to where that went.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at the fares:

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=BIF&dest=ULV

...anyone paying for singles in both directions is paying nearly twice what they need to pay, and the weekly season offers a couple of quid discount over 5 Anytime Day Returns too. Bizarrely there seems no basis to calculate a monthly on BRfares for this flow which is unusual for a short journey.

 

[Bantamzen]

While some won't be (e.g. some will get a lift to school because the start is similarly timed as most people starting work but possibly not home) the majority will be making a return journey each day and should as such have a season ticket which will save them a good amount of money. So while I don't think you could PF (is it a PF station?) or prosecute, I think there is enough evidence to talk of schoolkids fare dodging in that manner.

I wonder if a lot of parents don't know a season ticket is an option which would prevent their child spending their fare money on sweets. When I was a kid it was probably about a 50-50 split as to who did and who didn't, I reckon, and most of those who didn't paid for cash singles[1] when challenged and walked off when not.

[1] In those days no tickets were issued if you paid a Merseyrail inspector cash on arrival, so we can possibly hazard a guess as to where that went.

Going back a few years (OK then, a lot!) I remember when planning to go to Upper school, we had a visit to it in the final year of Middle school, and we were given letter for our parents on how to get to the school from the various areas that the children were coming from. And whilst there were no train options fro this particular school, we were given information on the school specials & local service buses, as well as season ticket options. In this day and age it shouldn't be too difficult to provide the same for parents, in this case highlighting the value of a season ticket. Thereafter children should have little excuse not to have a valid ticket at all times, thereby saving these kinds of delays.

 

[Ianno87]

While some won't be (e.g. some will get a lift to school because the start is similarly timed as most people starting work but possibly not home) the majority will be making a return journey each day and should as such have a season ticket which will save them a good amount of money. So while I don't think you could PF (is it a PF station?) or prosecute, I think there is enough evidence to talk of schoolkids fare dodging in that manner.

I wonder if a lot of parents don't know a season ticket is an option which would prevent their child spending their fare money on sweets. When I was a kid it was probably about a 50-50 split as to who did and who didn't, I reckon, and most of those who didn't paid for cash singles[1] when challenged and walked off when not.

[1] In those days no tickets were issued if you paid a Merseyrail inspector cash on arrival, so we can possibly hazard a guess as to where that went.

You do of course have to be able to trust your child not to have lost a freshly-purchased weekly ticket before the Monday afternoon!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You do of course have to be able to trust your child not to have lost a freshly-purchased weekly ticket before the Monday afternoon!

Some children will have an issue with this, but the vast majority will not. But as a minimum they should be ensuring that a return ticket is purchased in the morning, as if two singles are purchased then you pay nearly twice as much on this route.

I suspect what is happening with some, though, is that they are being given £5 a day and are trying to fare dodge *both ways* to spend on sweets, if they have to pay in one direction only there's little gain (or loss to Northern).

Personally, depending on how much I trusted that specific kid, I'd either buy a season or buy a week's worth of returns online and give them a ticket each day. Then I would know what my money was being spent on. That or use something like a GoHenry debit card so I could *see* what it was going on.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Chris Jackson, Regional Director for Northern, said: “We carried out revenue checks at Ulverston station yesterday (Thursday) following concerns from the local community regarding ticketless travel by schoolchildren.

The local RUG has raised similar concerns about fare evasion in the past.

Looking at Google Maps if these pupils are heading for Furness Academy then getting off at Roose is only another 5 -10 mins walking time than Barrow.

The price of the Ulverston to Barrow Child Monthly Season is £40.35. an SDR is £4.90 & the SDS £4.40 and CDS £4.00. Its really a no brainer that you should buy your child a monthly season.

 

[PeterC]

I am a bit confused as to why there should be an issue. In British Railways days I used extremely busy suburban stations in the rush hour both for school and later for work. Having manual ticket checks of every passenger never caused a hold up despite the volumes of passengers. Were Northern checking everybody before they had an opportunity to buy tickets or had the kids who missed their trains really been waiting to pay, having not bought returns in the morning in the hope of keeping the fare money?

 

[underbank]

Unless you're using the trains everyday, season tickets and weekly tickets etc may not be worth it. Lots of kids will be getting lifts to and/or from school according to the commuting pattern of their parents. So it's quite likely that many may get a lift to school, but then have to get the train home, likewise, some may be getting lifts on some days but not others if their parent(s) work part time. You can't assume that buying daily tickets or one way only tickets means fare dodging!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless you're using the trains everyday, season tickets and weekly tickets etc may not be worth it. Lots of kids will be getting lifts to and/or from school according to the commuting pattern of their parents. So it's quite likely that many may get a lift to school, but then have to get the train home, likewise, some may be getting lifts on some days but not others if their parent(s) work part time. You can't assume that buying daily tickets or one way only tickets means fare dodging!

To make the monthly season worthwhile at the fare quoted, it is only necessary to make slightly more than nine single journeys in a month. Therefore, there will be very few for whom it is not the best value option.

 

[Gareth Marston]

You do of course have to be able to trust your child not to have lost a freshly-purchased weekly ticket before the Monday afternoon!

Well we manage it on the Cambrian every year. Theirs two schools on the Coast Porthmadog and Tywyn that have rail traffic and Shrewsbury Sixth Form College (who take from all 5 lines into Shrewsbury) - now the coast ones get passes provided by Gwynedd CC and Shrewsbury Sixth Form will provide an Educational Season ticket up until the term of the 18th birthday.

Every September we reunite several passes/season tickets with their (newbie) users who have left them on trains. Then they don't seem to lose them after the initial scare. The procedure is then they will replace once for a fee and then tough you have to buy full price. Hereford has a private school and the local college all doing the same.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I am a bit confused as to why there should be an issue. In British Railways days I used extremely busy suburban stations in the rush hour both for school and later for work. Having manual ticket checks of every passenger never caused a hold up despite the volumes of passengers. Were Northern checking everybody before they had an opportunity to buy tickets or had the kids who missed their trains really been waiting to pay, having not bought returns in the morning in the hope of keeping the fare money?

As it was a a "new" experience I suspect they (the children) would have "herded" and copied what the people in front of them were doing. So the ones who had planned not to be paying would have hung back hoping for an opportunity to evade the net until very close the trains time and then others arriving after them would have hung back with them.

 

[philthetube]

It needs the queues dividing with a ticket holders only lane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It needs the queues dividing with a ticket holders only lane.

That would be quite sensible. Though I think the parents were a bit "snowflakey" about the whole thing driving over to perform a "rescue" - I doubt the kid was too bothered about missing the train and would have simply sat chatting with his mates who also missed it for an hour. Kids generally are quite laid back and don't give a monkey's about such things.

 

[Llanigraham]

And as the last coiple of sentences of the link says, some of them did wait for the next train.

Chris added: “All children with valid tickets or passes were told to make their way directly to the train, but some chose to stay behind and wait with friends for the later service.

“All children who waited for the later train were allowed to stay in the booking hall and a member of Northern staff stayed with them until the last child had left the station.”

 

[Bookd]

I tend to agree with PeterC in that in the old days every ticket was checked and if you did not have one you did not enter the platform. The only reason for this problem would be that none of the potential passengers (schoolchildren or others) are used to such a regime, either manually or by automatically operated gates.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The local RUG has raised similar concerns about fare evasion in the past.

Looking at Google Maps if these pupils are heading for Furness Academy then getting off at Roose is only another 5 -10 mins walking time than Barrow.

The price of the Ulverston to Barrow Child Monthly Season is £40.35. an SDR is £4.90 & the SDS £4.40 and CDS £4.00. Its really a no brainer that you should buy your child a monthly season.

As far as I've heard the issue was with pupils returning from school in Ulverston in the afternoon. One of the comments noted that the area around Roose is a lot busier around 4 when the train arrives - suggesting that indeed the some of the footfall has moved down one stop.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As far as I've heard the issue was with pupils returning from school in Ulverston in the afternoon. One of the comments noted that the area around Roose is a lot busier around 4 when the train arrives - suggesting that indeed the some of the footfall has moved down one stop.

It's clearly a deliberate attempt at fare evasion the article clearly states there were pupils trying to board without tickets at Ulverston.plusif you do get made to buy a ticket from Roose it is signifanly cheaper than Barrow percentage wise anyway.

I've been on Furness Academy's website (assuming it's the correct School) and I couldn't see any advice/ info about how to get to the Academy anywhere. Norther and/ or the Community Rail Officer needs to get involved if they haven't already at educating parents that getting there children a season ticket is the cheapest option for them. The Academy may also have some views as to the routes and road safety of Roose v Barrow.

 

[sheff1]

And even if they don't know the above, they should be providing the cost of a day return and insisting that is purchased in the morning, or even purchase a week's worth online for them.

Unless things have changed very recently, is not possible to buy, or collect, a ticket at either Roose or Dalton* and very doubtful if the guard could get through before Ulverston, even if they tried. Of course, a ticket could be purchased at Ulverston on arrival but children who have been given money and not had chance to buy a ticket are likely to be tempted to spend the money on something else. Buying a season at Ulverston to start the next day is another option, but, depending on the child, this might be a bit daunting and anyway many parents would be happier to give a child £2.35 each day rather than £10 for a weekly.

All this does not mean that Northern should not do revenue blocks but having them in the morning when pupils arrive might be better. If they must be in the afternoon for some reason, children with tickets should not be prevented from catching the train.

* If e-tickets are available on that line then clearly that makes things a lot easier and should be marketed to the parents.

I've been on Furness Academy's website (assuming it's the correct School) and I couldn't see any advice/ info about how to get to the Academy anywhere.

The article relates to children returning from Ulverston, I am assuming from Victoria High School. Equally, though, they do not seem to have any travel advice on their website.

 

[sheff1]

To make the monthly season worthwhile at the fare quoted, it is only necessary to make slightly more than nine single journeys in a month.

True ..... but, as the fares quoted were incorrect, not actually the case.

 

[cuccir]

The trend I believe is for children travelling from Barrow to Ulverston Victoria, so these are kids coming home from school. There was a thread on these forums a few months ago about issues that had been created by the retiming of services at Ulverston, in relation to Ulv Vic school times, but I think the consensus in that case was that the report was a result of a teacher was being somewhat fussy and the local paper being in need of a story.

Like a lot of non-PTE north of England, this is a stretch of line which has had a relatively relaxed approach to fare evasion under TPE and previous iterations of Northern, but the new Northern are clearly clamping down. I think these sort of events may in part be a result of clash between this new approach and a well established ''buy when challenged" culture among many local travellers.

 

[js1000]

If this is true, it's appalling behaviour by Northern, who show utter contempt for their passengers on a regular basis.

They are not just anti-passenger but also anti-rail as they are putting people off rail travel, this will also impact on other companies in the rail industry.

Nothing surprises me about Northern. The franchise is beyond help.

However they're kids without tickets. What to do exactly with unruly kids without tickets on the railways has always been a problem as the legal system isn't appropriate to deal with them.

However blockading them all, even those with tickets, clearly isn't the correct form of action. If something happens to a child because they miss their train then Northern and Arriva have a PR disaster on their hands. That's part of the problem with Arriva Northern - they are extremely unwise and exercise very poor judgement time and time again.

I'd be horrified if one my children was held up or missed their train because they were effectively against their will.

 

[Qwerty133]

* If e-tickets are available on that line then clearly that makes things a lot easier and should be marketed to the parents.

e-tickets are not appropriate for children travelling to and from school in the vast majority of circumstances due to school rules to do with the possession of smartphones by children and the regular confiscations of such devises by schools.

 

[sheff1]

e-tickets are not appropriate for children travelling to and from school in the vast majority of circumstances due to school rules to do with the possession of smartphones by children and the regular confiscations of such devises by schools.

e-tickets do not need a smartphone.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

I would imagine they have very ambitious targets to meet regarding ticketless travel as this is something the DfT is really pushing hard on. Southern is very similar on the Coastway routes and rural lines such as the Uckfield, they have done revenue patrols recently on that particular line and brought in a fortune. Problem is on a 10 car 171 formation the Guard is more a less confined to the cab and it can be 3 units put together so it's a nightmare to do revenue on especially down the branch and the locals know that so I'd imagine they go anywhere on the train they can to avoid paying. In these times when TOCs seem to be cutting back on staff, surely it would make sense to provide On Train Revenue staff on certain trains to collect the fares. Might help encourage people to start buying before they board.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Nothing surprises me about Northern. The franchise is beyond help.

However they're kids without tickets. What to do exactly with unruly kids without tickets on the railways has always been a problem as the legal system isn't appropriate to deal with them.

However blockading them all, even those with tickets, clearly isn't the correct form of action. If something happens to a child because they miss their train then Northern and Arriva have a PR disaster on their hands. That's part of the problem with Arriva Northern - they are extremely unwise and exercise very poor judgement time and time again.

I'd be horrified if one my children was held up or missed their train because they were effectively against their will.

Seems like some decided to hang around with friends when they could have traveled- this is typical behavior in teens to stay with mates no one made them do it. Northern kept staff on hand at Ulverston till the next train- clearly the safeguarding element had been thought about.

Chris added: “All children with valid tickets or passes were told to make their way directly to the train, but some chose to stay behind and wait with friends for the later service.

“All children who waited for the later train were allowed to stay in the booking hall and a member of Northern staff stayed with them until the last child had left the station.”

If the fare evasion is something that the children have done off their own back so as to spend their parents money on something else then this exercises publicity will have drawn their parents attention to it. The vast bulk will have had some sort of parental questioning at the very least as to whether there buying tickets with the money given to them. So the message will have been reinforced by Northern and their parents. Hopefully its enough of a "jolt" to stamp it out.