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Are ticket barriers at one station an effective deterrent against fare evasion?

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WelshBluebird

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Snipped the list, absolutely none of which apply to a schoolchild travelling from Barrow or Roose to Ulverston on a direct train using a child rate season ticket between those two stations purchased by the parent in advance of use (i.e. not by giving the kid the money). Which is how most of them should be travelling, provided they make a journey (single or return) five days a week, which almost all of them will.

What they are almost all doing, you can guarantee it (and it's nothing new), is paying when challenged and pocketing the money. As a paying passenger and taxpayer I want that to stop.

Except you made a very wide ranging comment, certainly not limiting it to just this case, that anyone who has an issue with strong enforcement against fare dodging is either a fare dodger themselves or is someone who supports it. That is a very bold claim that I had to disagree with.

Also it is worth pointing out this thread (at least according to the title) is not limited to just the case of school children making that journey.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Except you made a very wide ranging comment, certainly not limiting it to just this case, that anyone who has an issue with strong enforcement against fare dodging is either a fare dodger themselves or is someone who supports it. That is a very bold claim that I had to disagree with.

Fair point. I have edited it slightly and made an apology to Yorkie as it sort of implied by extension that he supported fare dodging and I know full well he does not. My point was more aimed at those who argue about kids who hadn't paid being delayed (or those who chose to stay with their mates, which was their choice). I made it poorly and I apologise for that.

The point I was more making to Yorkie (badly) was that just because Northern are an awfully managed TOC with many poorly thought out policies (and I have no time for them as a company whatsoever, somehow managing to be far worse than the previous incarnation which I thought was pretty bad) doesn't mean everything they do is bad, and I think there are only minor issues with the action they took in this case, mostly relating to possible confusion about which queue was for ticket holders and which not.

Also it is worth pointing out this thread (at least according to the title) is not limited to just the case of school children making that journey.

True.
 

PeterC

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Fundamentally because there is only one side of the story, you must attend school on time, and you must select a method of transport to get there that reliably gets you there on time. While this bus seems a rather raw deal, if it didn't you should have switched to another (earlier) method of transport. You would of course have a valid complaint with the bus operator, but that complaint does not absolve you of attending school (or work) punctually.

FWIW if I were a business owner I'd accept it once in a while (disaster scenario - "flat tyre rule", you might say) but would not if it was frequent, regardless of reason.
When I was at school it too a pretty serious failure that couldn't be anticipated to get off punishment for being late.

Bad weather - you should have left home earlier, end of. We did have a suburban catchment so getting an earlier bus or train was usually only a matter of 10 minutes and never more than 20.
 

Bletchleyite

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When I was at school it too a pretty serious failure that couldn't be anticipated to get off punishment for being late.

Bad weather - you should have left home earlier, end of. We did have a suburban catchment so getting an earlier bus or train was usually only a matter of 10 minutes and never more than 20.

In this case, looking at the timetable, it is about 30 minutes, which doesn't strike me as a massive problem. Get out of bed earlier, and if that's difficult go to bed earlier and it won't be.
 

Esker-pades

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Fundamentally because there is only one side of the story, you must attend school on time, and you must select a method of transport to get there that reliably gets you there on time. While this bus seems a rather raw deal, if it didn't you should have switched to another (earlier) method of transport. You would of course have a valid complaint with the bus operator, but that complaint does not absolve you of attending school (or work) punctually.

FWIW if I were a business owner I'd accept it once in a while (disaster scenario - "flat tyre rule", you might say) but would not if it was frequent, regardless of reason.
The problem is that the earlier bus/train either may not exist, or be 1 or 2 hours earlier.
When my school complained I was late and that I should get an earlier train, my response was that I already got an earlier train (07:22 rather than the 07:41). The previous service was before 7am, which is would have got me there about an hour before the start.

(To note, I wasn't often late. No more than once a month on average.)
 

Bletchleyite

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The problem is that the earlier bus/train either may not exist, or be 1 or 2 hours earlier.
When my school complained I was late and that I should get an earlier train, my response was that I already got an earlier train (07:22 rather than the 07:41). The previous service was before 7am, which is would have got me there about an hour before the start.

(To note, I wasn't often late. No more than once a month on average.)

Doesn't seem excessively unreasonable, though it is worthy of note that if that was an issue for someone who had chosen a school further away from home than necessary (not saying that was true in your case), the unavailability of suitable public transport isn't the school's problem any more than it would be an employer's problem if I couldn't travel to them punctually by public transport.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I had the same issue on occasion back when I was at school (being late, and the previous 'itinerary' getting me there quite a lot too early). But that was, as a matter of course, excused, as a vast majority of the students commuted by train and material delays were not that frequent. The same applies to those taking the bus, but not those afflicted by traffic.
 

Esker-pades

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Doesn't seem excessively unreasonable, though it is worthy of note that if that was an issue for someone who had chosen a school further away from home than necessary (not saying that was true in your case), the unavailability of suitable public transport isn't the school's problem any more than it would be an employer's problem if I couldn't travel to them punctually by public transport.
True, but an alternative school often isn't a thing in rural areas, where both public transportation and schools are scarce.
 

Bletchleyite

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True, but an alternative school often isn't a thing in rural areas, where both public transportation and schools are scarce.

True, but in those cases you're mostly using organised school buses (where those are the only option for free passes) rather than public ones, and I would say with those the school should be lenient on delays because the child genuinely has no practical choice.
 
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Fundamentally because there is only one side of the story, you must attend school on time, and you must select a method of transport to get there that reliably gets you there on time. While this bus seems a rather raw deal, if it didn't you should have switched to another (earlier) method of transport. You would of course have a valid complaint with the bus operator, but that complaint does not absolve you of attending school (or work) punctually.

FWIW if I were a business owner I'd accept it once in a while (disaster scenario - "flat tyre rule", you might say) but would not if it was frequent, regardless of reason.

Its a school bus. The school has a contract with stagecoach. The school is punishing YOU for the failure of a service THEY provide.
 
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For a long time I believed schooling was better years ago but polices like this have thoroughly changed my mind, it is better now days.

You can't control the weather so why be punished for it?
Bad weather - you should have left home earlier, end of
 

Bletchleyite

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Its a school bus. The school has a contract with stagecoach. The school is punishing YOU for the failure of a service THEY provide.

Were you paying a fare, or were you using a free pass valid ONLY on that bus?

If the former, take an earlier bus and walk from the main road. And complain to Stagecoach about the unreliability.

Once again, an employer will generally not tolerate poor punctuality on a repeated basis for any reason - and nor should they. This is a vitally important life lesson to learn at school age, which is one reason why schools are big on it - and rightly so.
 

Bletchleyite

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For a long time I believed schooling was better years ago but polices like this have thoroughly changed my mind, it is better now days.

You can't control the weather so why be punished for it?

Because if the business you work for doesn't open in bad weather (something you normally get in winter), it folds. It's a life lesson, as I said. Get your hiking boots on and walk.

In really bad weather the school won't open, of course.
 
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Were you paying a fare, or were you using a free pass valid ONLY on that bus?

If the former, take an earlier bus and walk from the main road. And complain to Stagecoach about the unreliability.

Once again, an employer will generally not tolerate poor punctuality on a repeated basis for any reason - and nor should they. This is a vitally important life lesson to learn at school age, which is one reason why schools are big on it - and rightly so.

Wrongly so. It doesn't help anyone by punishing kids for being late.

What happens if you get the earlier buses but they are hourly? Get their an hour before the gates close and stand there like a lemon?
 

Bletchleyite

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Wrongly so. It doesn't help anyone by punishing kids for being late

It does, it makes them take responsibility for their own punctuality.

What happens if you get the earlier buses but they are hourly? Get their an hour before the gates close and stand there like a lemon?

If necessary, yes. If it was a factory, they'd have to do that or get the sack.
 

Esker-pades

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No, it really doesn't. Have you ever been to Ulverston?
It slightly does though. For a start, the children getting the much earlier (say an hour) services would turn up on-time most of the time. Having a large group of children outside a school is a problem. My school (and multiple others) are on narrow pavements by busy roads. This is not a good mixture to add a large crowd of people to. Further, my school said that they did not want students turning up before it opened, or staying after it closed. The reason given was child safety and protection issues. The fact my school was not (and still isn't) in Ulverston does not change this.
 

Antman

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Wrongly so. It doesn't help anyone by punishing kids for being late.

What happens if you get the earlier buses but they are hourly? Get their an hour before the gates close and stand there like a lemon?

Just let them roll in whatever time they want then?
 

Agent_Squash

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This situation does involve the same school that was concerned about the service being moved back half an hour in the morning, creating a safeguarding issue in itself as staffing had to be increased on school site. It probably wouldn’t be popular at all if students or the staff if they had to get there even earlier!

I believe the school does actually advertise itself to schools all the way down the Peninsula, not just Ulverston and its local schools. But the key thing is if Northern are so concerned about fare evasion, surely they could start by providing TVMs at Roose/Dalton and if it’s really that bad, barriers at Ulverston?
 

Gareth Marston

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This situation does involve the same school that was concerned about the service being moved back half an hour in the morning, creating a safeguarding issue in itself as staffing had to be increased on school site. It probably wouldn’t be popular at all if students or the staff if they had to get there even earlier!

I believe the school does actually advertise itself to schools all the way down the Peninsula, not just Ulverston and its local schools. But the key thing is if Northern are so concerned about fare evasion, surely they could start by providing TVMs at Roose/Dalton and if it’s really that bad, barriers at Ulverston?

From what's been said up thread its people trying to avoid the ticket buying facilities and barriers at Barrow that has seen people using Roose increase recently. Coming back to the thread title it may not be a unique situation but unlike many other educational flows I know of the movement is not from smaller towns/ villages into a larger settlement but from a large settlement outwards. The presence of a smaller un barriered suburban station in Barrow is also a strong factor.

Take Shrewsbury and Hereford the flow is into a barriered station with no alternatives so a single barrier line is very effective.
 

Bletchleyite

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This situation does involve the same school that was concerned about the service being moved back half an hour in the morning, creating a safeguarding issue in itself as staffing had to be increased on school site.

Which was rubbish as well, as teenagers are not at risk in any way standing around in a place like Ulverston. They would most likely go and find somewhere decent to sit.

The Safeguarding industry really needs to start concentrating itself on actual Safeguarding issues such as abuse within their own families, which is where most of it takes place. Or on schools taking bullying seriously, for instance. Or on finding and closing down websites and chat rooms where kids are groomed and the likes.

I just take the view, really, that people just like whining about the railway and blaming it for their own problems. It's damned if it does, and damned if it doesn't. So that being the case, it might as well take the choices that protect its revenue as best as possible, and just ignore the whining, wherever it comes from.
 

IceAgeComing

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In my experience most bosses are reasonable about train issues: and are open to a little flexibility in working hours if it suits a persons travel arrangements. The deal that we have at my work is that you have listed work hours and you generally can offset them half an hour in each direction which works: I go 9:30-6, others are strict 9-5:30; one guy is a massive morning person and does 8-4:30. The thing with trains is that provided that its not regular then if you're late one day then its ignored: they aren't going to make someone work very late because of Southeastern messing up. If its consistent then sure - although the attitude tends to be that if your work gets done then they'll let things slide. My boss takes advantage of this one: he's come in after 10 before and is always last out.

This is an office job with other flexible things (can work from home one day a week as an example): I totally get that not all work places are quite like this but a large number are. Besides its never right to punish someone for occasionally being late because of dodgy public transport anyway, it should be expected at times.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think occasionally it's fine provided you apologise, but daily or even more than once every couple of weeks shows you're cutting it too fine or planning poorly. But office work is much more flexible than most other types of work, particularly flexible are things like being a developer in IT.

But that doesn't work for every job. If a bus driver or train driver is late, they make several hundred people late, for instance. If a safety-critical person is late, that means the person before has to wait until they arrive before they can go.

That's why it's a good habit to get in at school age and why it's important that schools do insist on punctuality and individual responsibility to ensure it.
 
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I feel that schools are going to far by punishing kids for late arrivals, especially if it is not their own fault such as a bus or train issue. Many will disagree but i speak from recent experience and can tell you that most teachers are more concerned about their own personal performance and how they look to the management than the children. Therefor by punishing kids for small things they can show management how in control they are. One thing is certainly clear and that is that they aren't doing it to teach the children a "life lesson" as @Bletchleyite calls it.

It is a life lesson but it isn't taught properly at all.
 

Bletchleyite

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I feel that schools are going to far by punishing kids for late arrivals, especially if it is not their own fault such as a bus or train issue. Many will disagree but i speak from recent experience and can tell you that most teachers are more concerned about their own personal performance and how they look to the management than the children. Therefor by punishing kids for small things they can show management how in control they are. One thing is certainly clear and that is that they aren't doing it to teach the children a "life lesson" as @Bletchleyite calls it.

It is a life lesson but it isn't taught properly at all.

I think you really have a downer on schools and teachers...did you have a recent bad experience at school? I know the view of teaching has changed these days, but lateness would certainly have brought at the very least a telling off when I was at school (and persistent lateness would have resulted in punishment *and* parental involvement) - and that was years ago.
 

yorkie

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I feel that schools are going to far by punishing kids for late arrivals, especially if it is not their own fault such as a bus or train issue. Many will disagree but i speak from recent experience and can tell you that most teachers are more concerned about their own personal performance and how they look to the management than the children. Therefor by punishing kids for small things they can show management how in control they are. One thing is certainly clear and that is that they aren't doing it to teach the children a "life lesson" as @Bletchleyite calls it.

It is a life lesson but it isn't taught properly at all.
I suggest you create a new thread in General Discussion to discuss this, and I will disagree with you there.
 
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so it doesn't really seem like the barriers are deterring much but instead just moving the issue a mile up the road.

Very often the case, from experience down south here in Cambridge its the same, those that want to fare evade find it easier as the guard/inspector wont come round between Ely/Bishops Stortford/Royston as they think people will get caught at the gates however what people do is go round Cambridge amd get off at Shelford and walk back
 
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