Are Top Speeds Really Just the Recommended Speed?

[atraindriver]

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[cambsy]

Now days I doubt drivers would intentionally go over a loco or units maximum max speed, or exceed line speed, as they would soon be invited for a tea with no biscuits.

In the days before black boxes, downloads, speed checks etc, I have had runs where either the loco went over max speed or train exceeded line speed, I have had 56’s doing just under 100mph, 37’s over 100mph double headed, 58’s doing a 100mph, Royal Scots Grey 116mph down shap and Beattock with mk2’s, 90mph on Settle and Carlisle on a diesel day years ago, 2x31’s 100mph bottom of Lickey Bank, 20’s doing 85mph on GSWR on a railtour, cab riding a non stop relief Holyhead-Chester on a 47/8. Doing 99 mph on Anglesey and 90mph on to Chester, was 75mph line speed back then, reached Chester 20 mins early approx a nutter of a driver, 86’s with mk2’s on Birmingham runs doing if not exceeding 110mph, 87’s doing well over 110mph, and the best for really high speeds the 225’s when first came out and up to the late 90’s, doing 135-140mph on the ECML mainly on the Scottish Pullmans 3hr 59mins London-Edinburgh and Edinburgh-London, done York in 97 mins, Peterborough-Colton Jct stop to pass in 54 mins, London-Peterborough stop in 42 mins, Newcastle-Edinburgh 75 mins, quite regularly would do 135-140mph down stoke bank and York-Darlington, Doncaster-York, did have a log book with a host of exciting runs but lost it when moved house.

 

[AlexNL]

Why could they not? At quieter times of day I would have thought it would be possible if there is no trains in front

Back in the day there was no constant monitoring and logging of what's going on inside the cab. That's does happen in today's world, and the logs can be downloaded and read by the TOC if they want to.

 

[hexagon789]

Why could they not? At quieter times of day I would have thought it would be possible if there is no trains in front

Well on the GWML you now have ATP for a start...

It knows.

Thanks

Except on one of the 170/1s, where it hadn't cut in by the time I'd bottled it at 110...

Some of ScotRail's 170s can be bouncy enough in places at 100mph, not sure I'd care to experience 110 in one!

 

[atraindriver]

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[hexagon789]

I don't think I'd want to do 100 in one nowadays given how much they bounce and how poor the track is getting in some places. Mind you, I always felt they rode unacceptably rough at most speeds, although that may have been the combination of the bounce and the sprung driver's seat.

I've always felt 158s and even 156s rode better than 170s.

 

[Highlandspring]

...and not only can they be downloaded, depending on the memory of the specific data unit, they can download for quite some time afterwards which means that you can't do silly things like thinking "Hey, it's Friday night, all the bosses have gone home for the weekend, so who's going to catch me?" - if someone Tweets about it, even if it takes a week or two to identify the unit or find a manager to do the download, all the data is still there waiting to be used to crucify you. So I'd say that only an idiot would do things like that nowadays.

With Nexala the unit’s speed (and all the other parameters recorded by the OTDR) can be viewed live online in Control, so you can be nailed by a tweet instantly. It will even email the Operational Safety department for certain safety of the line issues such as TPWS brakes demands - though I’m not sure if this includes exceeding the maximum permitted speed of the unit.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s a bit like the trackers in many company vans (including Network Rail’s). They will email your line manager immediately if you go more than x mph over the speed limit.

 

[Highlandspring]

It’s a bit like the trackers in many company vans (including Network Rail’s). They will email your line manager immediately if you go more than x mph over the speed limit.

I stopped having to drive company vehicles just before they started fitting VTS, which by the sounds of things turned out to be a good move!

 

[driver_m]

I've definitely read that 4REPs were capable of far more than 90, definitely at least 100.



Is that on any overspeed or simply going over the maximum for the unit?

Sorry didn't see this thread for a while, I think your question has already been answered by @hexagon789 and @PudseyBearHST but with an overspeed. The 390 is limited to 128 so in theory, you shouldn't get TASS squawking at you at that speed. Though it can happen if the Speedo is a bit out. In practise it's supposed to be TASS warning 3mph over with an intervention at 6mph, and a very slightly different profile for a 221. However, the Voyager one isnt as finely honed as the 390 and will squeal at you doing 126. Not that it ever happens to me hehe .

 

[Jozhua]

Sorry didn't see this thread for a while, I think your question has already been answered by @hexagon789 and @PudseyBearHST but with an overspeed. The 390 is limited to 128 so in theory, you shouldn't get TASS squawking at you at that speed. Though it can happen if the Speedo is a bit out. In practise it's supposed to be TASS warning 3mph over with an intervention at 6mph, and a very slightly different profile for a 221. However, the Voyager one isnt as finely honed as the 390 and will squeal at you doing 126. Not that it ever happens to me hehe .

Used to joke that drivers sped up a bit to try and avoid crowds coming from football matches or other large events where some passengers may have drunk a bit much , is there an element of truth to this?

 

[driver_m]

Used to joke that drivers sped up a bit to try and avoid crowds coming from football matches or other large events where some passengers may have drunk a bit much , is there an element of truth to this?

Maybe with a bribe of a brew from the onboard staff!! . I don't know to be honest but let's say it wouldn't surprise me if true.

 

[hexagon789]

Sorry didn't see this thread for a while, I think your question has already been answered by @hexagon789 and @PudseyBearHST but with an overspeed. The 390 is limited to 128 so in theory, you shouldn't get TASS squawking at you at that speed. Though it can happen if the Speedo is a bit out. In practise it's supposed to be TASS warning 3mph over with an intervention at 6mph, and a very slightly different profile for a 221. However, the Voyager one isnt as finely honed as the 390 and will squeal at you doing 126. Not that it ever happens to me hehe .

Thanks for the reply. I still wonder why a Voyager's TASS behaves differently to a Pendolino, just seems strange somehow, though I suppose that's hardly unusual.

I'm sure it doesn't!

 

[class 9]

Thanks for the reply. I still wonder why a Voyager's TASS behaves differently to a Pendolino, just seems strange somehow, though I suppose that's hardly unusual.

I'm sure it doesn't!

Voyagers tilt system is hydraulic where as Pendolino is electric control.

 

[hexagon789]

Voyagers tilt system is hydraulic where as Pendolino is electric control.

Why does that affect the TASS though? Or is it because a Super Voyager only tilts up to six degrees, while a Pendolino tilts up to eight, and therefore a 221 is limited to lower speeds than a 390 on certain sections.

 

[driver_m]

Why does that affect the TASS though? Or is it because a Super Voyager only tilts up to six degrees, while a Pendolino tilts up to eight, and therefore a 221 is limited to lower speeds than a 390 on certain sections.

The TASS doesn't behave that differently, I'd just say the Voyager one is a bit keener and the only major difference is the full brake application when the brakes are made to intervene. The Tilt itself is different with the two units, as already mentioned, but that is due to the physical differences of the two, and the systems used. The software in the Tilt processors is set up differently to reflect whether it has to tilt 5 coaches over (221) or 9/11 (390). But TASS essentially works in the same way.

 

[hexagon789]

The TASS doesn't behave that differently, I'd just say the Voyager one is a bit keener and the only major difference is the full brake application when the brakes are made to intervene. The Tilt itself is different with the two units, as already mentioned, but that is due to the physical differences of the two, and the systems used. The software in the Tilt processors is set up differently to reflect whether it has to tilt 5 coaches over (221) or 9/11 (390). But TASS essentially works in the same way.

Thanks. So essentially TASS works the same way on both classes and it's simply the classes themselves that deal with TASS slightly differently then, if I've understood rightly?

 

[hexagon789]

One other point while I remember. A while ago, and I cannot recall where, I read that when the 156s were used on ScotRail Express duties (mainly Edinburgh-Glasgow I'm thinking of) to cover for as yet unavailable 158s, they were supposedly permitted to run at 80mph rather than 75.

Has anyone come across this or was someone talking rubbish?

 

[driver_m]

Thanks. So essentially TASS works the same way on both classes and it's simply the classes themselves that deal with TASS slightly differently then, if I've understood rightly?

Yeah pretty much that.

 

[hexagon789]

Yeah pretty much that.

Cheers, thanks

 

[chuff chuff]

One other point while I remember. A while ago, and I cannot recall where, I read that when the 156s were used on ScotRail Express duties (mainly Edinburgh-Glasgow I'm thinking of) to cover for as yet unavailable 158s, they were supposedly permitted to run at 80mph rather than 75.

Has anyone come across this or was someone talking rubbish?

Worked those services with the 156's and don't remember anything like that.Not to say that some didn't run them at 80 or harder.

 

[Highlandspring]

One other point while I remember. A while ago, and I cannot recall where, I read that when the 156s were used on ScotRail Express duties (mainly Edinburgh-Glasgow I'm thinking of) to cover for as yet unavailable 158s, they were supposedly permitted to run at 80mph rather than 75.

Has anyone come across this or was someone talking rubbish?

It’s rubbish.

 

[cambsy]

Driver m backs up my experience on Pendolinos and how much overspeed TASS allows, I did the non stop Glasgow-Euston Railway Magazine special record attempt back in 2006, and our top speed was 128mph, they would have liked to gone faster but the TASS wouldn’t allow it, I can imagine it took some skill to keep 390047 going as close to 128mph as possible without triggering a brake application, and the driver Mark Bearton, if got name right drove the whole 3hrs 55 mins run without break, One train I wish could have been on was the Tees Tyne Pullman record breaking launch run, which used a HST 5 coach set, specially fettled up to run at 140mph and slightly over, in the October 2010 Railway Magazine Practice and Performance article it covers this run, It transpired the having got to Huntingdon, if they did authorised 125mph rest of way to Kings cross they would not break record, so driver McManus and Snaith and chief traction inspector Alan Richardson between them agreed to run a at 20mph over authorised speeds into London with some high speeds and eye watering speeds of Huntingdon 137mph, Arlesley 139mph, Hitching 132mph, Hatfield 115mph, Brookmans Park 120mph, Potters Bar120/115mph,Hadley Wood 122mph, New Barnet 122mph, New Southgate 122mph, Alexandra palace 115mph,Haringay 100mph, Finsbury Park 98mph, MP2 98mph, I think the last few miles would have been somewhat exhilarating to say the least, I’d like to know what drivers think of this? The speeds are taken from the log in the article and were recorded by Peter PWB Semmens etc, so taken as true speeds.

 

[hexagon789]

Worked those services with the 156's and don't remember anything like that.Not to say that some didn't run them at 80 or harder.

I imagine they ran unofficially at 80 or so, but the way this was worded definitely made out it was an official thing.

It’s rubbish.

Thank you for confirming this, I did think it was odd I hadn't read it anywhere else, but in a way it didn't seem that unbelievable that they relaxed the top speed by 5mph.

 

[driver_m]

Driver m backs up my experience on Pendolinos and how much overspeed TASS allows, I did the non stop Glasgow-Euston Railway Magazine special record attempt back in 2006, and our top speed was 128mph, they would have liked to gone faster but the TASS wouldn’t allow it, I can imagine it took some skill to keep 390047 going as close to 128mph as possible without triggering a brake application, and the driver Mark Bearton, if got name right drove the whole 3hrs 55 mins run without break, One train I wish could have been on was the Tees Tyne Pullman record breaking launch run, which used a HST 5 coach set, specially fettled up to run at 140mph and slightly over, in the October 2010 Railway Magazine Practice and Performance article it covers this run, It transpired the having got to Huntingdon, if they did authorised 125mph rest of way to Kings cross they would not break record, so driver McManus and Snaith and chief traction inspector Alan Richardson between them agreed to run a at 20mph over authorised speeds into London with some high speeds and eye watering speeds of Huntingdon 137mph, Arlesley 139mph, Hitching 132mph, Hatfield 115mph, Brookmans Park 120mph, Potters Bar120/115mph,Hadley Wood 122mph, New Barnet 122mph, New Southgate 122mph, Alexandra palace 115mph,Haringay 100mph, Finsbury Park 98mph, MP2 98mph, I think the last few miles would have been somewhat exhilarating to say the least, I’d like to know what drivers think of this? The speeds are taken from the log in the article and were recorded by Peter PWB Semmens etc, so taken as true speeds.

He wasn't the driver IIRC, he might have been the second driver in the cab, sure it was driven by Russell Southworth. I've heard about that video of that run. I don't know if the 128mph upper limit was in place then .There was a time when it would only throw the brakes in doing 131 in the same way that TASS deals with overspeeding at lower speeds .I.e going the full 6mph over the limit. Nowadays, it shouldn't be possible.

 

[Julian888]

I did have a REP at ~110 in the late 80's south of Winchester - the '~' to allow for the dodgy mileposts and subsequent more detailed distance information later. In the early REP era it was not unusual to have 100 down through Hinton Admiral. A chat with a driver re. the 110 elicited 'the speedo goes to 90, after that it is just guesswork' - fair play and similar in its own way to the 140 club on the GWR with unrestricted HSTs. The early runs with the 442's saw assorted speeds of ~110 east of Basingstoke and a 118 down through Eastleigh to stop at Parkway. The 442 brakes were (perhaps still are? - hopefully!) excellent - in a day of different driving they could, and I have figures from my own timings, stop from 90 in half a mile. Unlikely to happen now, although probably equally possible should someone give it a whirl. From another thread I recall a driver saying that he would hit Chippenham 'hard', around 60 at the ramp - probably on the up. 4-SUB stuff.

Yes, I too remember a REP at utter maximum, some time in the 1980s south of Winchester, conductor just beamed and said 'we're late'. He reckoned they had hit 120. Yes, 120 - the figure has stuck in my mind for ever after, obviously I'd never been that fast at that time except in a plane, and certainly the experience of speed was completely mesmerising - quite unlike an HST, not least because you could open a window. And as Hinton Admiral was our local station I well remember them regularly coming through at prodigious speed. My late father commuted to London for a couple of years, 1975-77. He was very grateful that they reached London in 59 minutes (scheduled) from S'ton to Waterloo. On just one occasion we travelled together as far as Brockenhurst - a well-remembered bacon sandwich indeed. 4REP - very fondly remembered, 442 a very poor replacement IMHO.

 

[Railperf]

The 442s brakes are indeed excellent..and they needed to be. I recall a trip to Poole where going downhill near Fleet, i could sense we were going very fast indeed. I walked to the interconnecting gangway between the two 442s where there is a window into the drivers cab. Speedo appeared to be showing 115mph!! Shame there was no GPS to corroborate this.
Onboard data recorders, TPWS and changes in driving policy have all made this sort of event a thing of the past!
Clearly the maximum service speeds for stock and track are based on many operational factors rather than the absolute maximum speed that can be achieved by apiece of rolling stock over a stretch of track. Signalling, brakes and passenger safety and comfort are key.
I guess if you locked peoples luggage down and ensured people were sat down and seatbelted up- as on the airplanes - then faster speeds could be possible?

 

[hexagon789]

I'm surprised that they could do 120 with 4REPs, 100 or so seems likely enough but 115, 120? Seems unlikely to me somehow.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I guess a car comparison is a Porsche 911 vs a 1l Ford fiesta doing 100 mph, fiesta is at almost maximum in every aspect and the 911 is not, larger wheels, breaks etc. Although both cars can do it, the Porsche is much safer and can stop quicker

 

[Railperf]

I'm surprised that they could do 120 with 4REPs, 100 or so seems likely enough but 115, 120? Seems unlikely to me somehow.

Downhill ..anything is possible. Class 86s were tested at 120mph+ with a streamlined nose at a time they were limited to 100mph commercially.
I'm told 80 to 90mph was achieved with A stock downhill from Amersham to Rickmansworth back in the day when 'speeding' didnt matter..probably ECS.