Are tunnel walls the closest object to a train?

[richieb1971]

From a window height. Thanks.

 

[theironroad]

From a window height. Thanks.

Guess it depends on definition of object.

There's plenty of trees and shrubs and hedges that are routinely struck and kept back by trains.

 

[richieb1971]

Limiting to infrastructure or design choices.

 

[theironroad]

Limiting to infrastructure or design choices.

Fair enough.

 

[43066]

Tunnel walls are usually concave so will bend away from trains at window height. Signal/OHLE gantries on inside curves can come closer (and have caused fatalities to those leaning out of droplights).

 

[richieb1971]

Limiting to infrastructure or design choices.

I saw a boy get very bloody in the 80s between Tyseley and Derby when the train hit trees and this boys arm was hanging out the window. He had to get out with his gang at the next stop for treatment. Was not a pretty sight and he screamed.

Guess it depends on definition of object.

There's plenty of trees and shrubs and hedges that are routinely struck and kept back by trains.

 

[theironroad]

I saw a boy get very bloody in the 80s between Tyseley and Derby when the train hit trees and this boys arm was hanging out the window. He had to get out with his gang at the next stop for treatment. Was not a pretty sight and he screamed.

Believe me, even hitting a twig with the hand at low speed, say 40mph, is pretty painful. I talk from experience.

 

[Mat17]

I was once on a steam rail tour and I saw a passenger led through the carriage with his hand lacerated, presumably he'd been meaning out of a window and some kind of foliage had struck him. So I can well believe the scenarios above.

 

[L401CJF]

Not infrastructure related, but foliage related.

Back when the Cally sleeper was Mk2/Mk3 stock me and my brother had a berth in the rear Mk3 leaving Fort William around 2 years ago, we did a bit of window hanging - not literally hanging out just sensibly keeping half a head out watching the sunset over the mountains and enjoying the view out of the little windows in the back gangway door. Absolutely breathtaking, nothing quite like it! We were approached by the guard/steward/manager whatever you want to call him. He had no issues with it us having our heads out and told us where abouts we needed to keep an eye out for the close trees. Nice being able to enjoy the ride and using some common sense, even more so having an understanding member of staff

 

[Nottingham59]

See the image on p21 of the RAIB report into the Balham fatality in 2016: https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/615660/R092017_170525_Balham.pdf

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

It is incredible how drastically attitudes to window hanging have changed over the last two years. It was only two and a half years ago that a member of staff actually encouraged me to carry on after I moved back thinking she needed access to the door locking control panel. Staff came to check my ticket etc countless times over the years, and most never batted an eye-lid. Only once did a staff member actually ask me not to. Now, of course, it's a different story (not that I've done it recently or plan to). While it's something I personally really miss, and I believe there are definitely situations where it can be done safely, there are also situations where it definitely isn't safe, and that's not really acceptable, especially when it's unnecessary. Overall I think the change in attitude is a positive thing. I made sure I was always checking what was coming, and if anything stopped me from being able to do that with a reasonable reaction time, be it speed, a corner, darkness, rain, or anything else, I stopped. I never had anything I'd consider even close to a near miss. But if someone hadn't taken the precautions I always did, well, history has shown what can happen.

To answer the OP, leaves and small branches are the closest things to trains, as they sometimes actually touch them. I'd estimate MOST tunnels etc are at least an arm's length away, although obviously I've never tested that!

 

[CEN60]

Technically anything static can be as close as >100mm (Normal Clearance) at that height (on ballasted track). There are reduced & special reduced bands also (but they get a bit scary!!) The calculated clearance is based normally on dynamic models of different types of stock run thru special software. In theory if the software returns a clearance of 100mm in practice in the real work it will be greater due to tolerances built in.

At platform height technically a min clearance of 50mm to the nearest part of the train is acceptable. There are other regulation regarding stepping up onto & down off a train.

If you have ever travelled on the Kyle Line in Summer there are many things that are considerably closer than 0mm at that height!!!!!

 

[Spartacus]

Depends very much on the tunnel. Most at that height will be quite a distance away, while some get very close.

 

[Skoodle]

As others have said, it depends on the infrastructure. On the East London Line, it's in the Sectional Appendix that we can't open the windows in Dalston Western Curve (due to proximity of the tunnel walls), yet nothing about the core route tunnels, including the Thames Tunnel, which feels like it's closer.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Do certain sections of GB track have less than generous clearances? Thinking in particular of the Cumbrian Coast line between Maryport and Carlisle.

Certainly windows being whacked by overhanging branches can be quite scary. Thinking not so much of trains here but double decker rail replacement buses on routes that double deck buses don't otherwise normally travel along.

 

[CEN60]

Do certain sections of GB track have less than generous clearances? Thinking in particular of the Cumbrian Coast line between Maryport and Carlisle.

Certainly windows being whacked by overhanging branches can be quite scary. Thinking not so much of trains here but double decker rail replacement buses on routes that double deck buses don't otherwise normally travel along.

Depends on the route (or line) - each route is "cleared" for differing stock - Normally freight governs things (ie different freight wagons / containers)

 

[Taunton]

The change is the approach to PW maintenance. Time was when the foliage never got close to any train because the ganger (left school at 15) knew full well how much to have it cut back and for it to stay clear during the growing season. Now it seems there's nobody around the office-fulls of university graduates who understands this. Not only are trackside weeds left unchecked (one substantial one at New Cross Gate station on the Down Fast by the conductor rail was being clouted by the collector shoes of each and every passing train), but bushes against the train side are now routine. Going down the Cotswold line, once double track, I was surprised to find bushes scraping both sides of the train simultaneously, at speed. Those just hadn't grown like that yesterday.

You may recollect how the drivers of steam locomotives would lean out of their cab window as an operational necessity to view the line ahead.

The Balham incident was with a signal post which likewise was notably out of gauge, and had been left like that long term. I have asked here before how the expensive New Measurement Train doesn't pick these items up. Apparently "it's not that sort of measurement" it does.

 

[bassmike]

I remember riding in the cab of a surface stock train from Hounslow central E B and the asault by overhanging foliage etc; was quite scaring.(line only normally used by tube stock)

 

[Dr_Paul]

A few years back, the foliage between North Sheen and Mortlake alongside the up line was scraping the side of passenger stock. No danger of injuring passengers as there are no opening windows on 450s and 458s and only little opening ones on 455s, but the sides of the carriages were visibly scratched. About that time, the avoiding line around the back of the flyover at Queenstown Road also had trackside foliage that scraped the carriages, but that line wasn't in regular use.

As for bus routes, in the past London Transport would send out its Tree Pruning Vehicle and have any obstructing branches lopped off. Nowadays, a sign warning drivers of overhanging branches seems to be sufficient.

 

[Bungle158]

As a former HS TM, l used to make frequent announcements asking passengers not to hang out of windows. Summer was the worst time, but l remember physically pulling one chap back into the train just before Phillot tunnel..in November. I would often say that lost property was full of unclaimed heads or when rail enthusiasts were involved, (often the case), that blood and custard was a livery they would not want to revisit.

 

[CW2]

I was on a railtour in eastern Europe, going up a line that hadn't seen a train of any type for quite a while. As we struggled forward towards the bufferstops I could hear foliage scraping along th carriages. Just as we came to a stop a branch pinged through the open window and struck me firmly on the chest. I wasn't even standing by the window!

 

[choochoochoo]

Used to leave my arm resting on the droplight of a 313 cab window.

Elbow got 'grazed' by an overgrown twig/branch whilst doing 75mph and it wasn't a pleasant experience. - Saved the arm resting for pulling into platforms or in the depot after that.

 

[Dave91131]

The walls of the tunnel about half way between Birmingham International and Coventry always seemed much closer to the train than those of other tunnels, back in the days of Virgin loco hauled services.

Not sure if that's truly the case or is / was just an illusion.

 

[Lytham Local]

The Linslade single bore after Leighton Buzzard must be up there with one of the closest here

 

[island]

Surprised nobody’s mentioned the Ledbury tunnel yet. It had to have special rules back in HST days because HST doors wouldn’t open as the clearance was so tight.

 

[Pshambro]

Went on the watercress line once and was looking (not hanging) forwards out of the window only to get an enormous piece of black ash stuck to my eye - so big it nearly covered my pupil. Spent the whole journey to Alresford in the toilets trying to wash it out. My wife was less than impressed at my absence for most for the journey.

With regards to line side foliage one could argue that it is cheaper to repaint a few scratched units than cut back foliage on thousands of miles of track. or is it ?

 

[xotGD]

Nobody has mentioned a train on the next track. What is the closest approach you would get?

IIRC, wasn't there a potential issue of an APT tilting the wrong way and potentially contacting a train tilting the right way on the opposite track?

 

[PeterY]

Just out of pure interest, I know some tunnels have a tight bore but which has the tightest bore ?

 

[Grecian 1998]

As mentioned above, Ledbury Tunnel in Herefordshire has or had special rules due to its restrictive bore. I understand Shakespeare Tunnel in Kent has similarly unique rules.

Whilst it's been out of use for trains since 1966, Devonshire Tunnel on the Somerset & Dorset was notoriously tight, not helped by a 1 in 50 gradient southbound. It's now on the Two Tunnels Greenway so you can pass through on foot or bike. It's hard to imagine a full-size steam locomotive scraping through.

 

[Deepgreen]

Off the top of my head - tunnels, bridges, trees, retaining walls, signals, OHLE posts, sundry poles, sheds and stanchions. This shed wall at Bridgnorth SVR takes some beating:

Went on the watercress line once and was looking (not hanging) forwards out of the window only to get an enormous piece of black ash stuck to my eye - so big it nearly covered my pupil. Spent the whole journey to Alresford in the toilets trying to wash it out. My wife was less than impressed at my absence for most for the journey.

With regards to line side foliage one could argue that it is cheaper to repaint a few scratched units than cut back foliage on thousands of miles of track. or is it ?

Cutting back isn't done to protect paintwork, but to reduce leaf fall onto the track!