Arriva accused of 'massive rail fail' after 150 passengers unable to board packed tra

[Holmbridge]

Keep telling yourselves that franchising works........

 

[Gareth Marston]

See article for passenger pic from cab.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/arriva-trains-wales-investigate-claims-8364004

Looking at the "cab pic" it looks like a northbound shot of Ruabon from a 158. However the train was suppose to be heading south through there! Anyone else like to identify the location?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Keep telling yourselves that franchising works........

It does if your a senior manager and have a bonus scheme!

 

[BestWestern]

I doubt it's allowed, and I expect someone will be slapped very hard for it (and will leave people behind next time), but it wasn't a "security risk".

If someone jumped? No worse than sitting behind the driver on a Class 101 set, not that those are running on the mainline any more!

Neil

There is a 'butterfly' emergency door release valve mounted at floor level on the Secondman's side of the cab. Though usually fitted with a sprung hinged cover, it's certainly possible for somebody to inadvertently operate it with a foot/bag/whatever, and then you'd have a rather unpleasant problem on your hands. A 'door open in traffic' incident caused by memebers of the public having been allowed to travel in the cab, not a report that I'd want to be faxing off. If the service was totally rammed you may also have the worst case scenario of people being lent against a set of doors which unexpectedly open. In most cases the Secondman's side is adjancent to the other running line. In brief, not good.

I rather suspect this may well have been an old school Driver trying to use 'common sense' and be helpful. However, I also rather suspect he won't do it again.

 

[Envoy]

I really can't see why a big deal is being made about a member of the public travelling in the cab. Firstly, it being a 158, no member of the public was actually in the cab with the driver. They were surely travelling in the front of the train on the other side of the connecting partiition? OK, so if the train crashed, they were likely to be killed but hey, we have Pacers operating on main lines that offer little crash protection to the bulk of their passengers.

Furthermore, if we have a train that is so packed that the people are standing and rammed against each other, then clearly, in the event of an emergency, we would have a far more dangerous situation than in a normally loaded train.

I think the driver showed initiative in letting a member of the public into the spare cab on his train. The people who should be called over the coals for this situation are Virgin who appear to have had a spare Voyager sitting at Holyhead doing nothing. If a ship had arrived at Holyhead from Ireland, they must have known that it would come with a load of people to shift back east.

 

[Darandio]

Furthermore, if we have a train that is so packed that the people are standing and rammed against each other, then clearly, in the event of an emergency, we would have a far more dangerous situation than in a normally loaded train.

Ah, but it's quite the opposite...........apparently....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-430760/Packed-trains-safer-crashes-claim-rail-chiefs.html

From the above link.....

“Research in the late Nineties... found that where there was a crowded or overcrowded train carriage there was no detrimental effect to people involved in crashes. In a lot of cases people were better off in train carriages where there was overcrowding.”

 

[BestWestern]

The driving cab of any train is well and truly off limits, and has been for some years now. Even a Guard isn't permitted to travel in there, and that includes the entire cab area regardless of what can be done with gangway doors. As I mentioned above, there is equipment which is not intended to be accessible to the public, even on the Secondman's side of the cab. As well the door release valve already pointed out, the OTMR ( data recorder ) is mounted on that side of the cab, and on some stock with some TOCs there is further kit over there as well. Not to mention the legal nightmare if the train was indeed involved in a fatality/collision/hit by something being thrown etc... It isn't an area for the public to travel in and the rules about it are very clear.

 

[Monty]

The driving cab of any train is well and truly off limits, and has been for some years now. Even a Guard isn't permitted to travel in there, and that includes the entire can area regardless of what can be done with gangway doors. As I mentioned above, there is equipment which is not intended to be accessible to the public, even on the Secondman's side of the cab. As well the door release valve already pointed out, the OTMR ( data recorder ) is mounted on that side of the cab, and on some stock with some TOCs there is further kit over there as well. Not to mention the legal nightmare if the train was indeed involved in a fatality/collision/hit by something being thrown etc... It isn't an area for the public to travel in and the rules about it are very clear.

This, the cab is strictly off limits. I suspect the driver will be having a rather arkward meeting with tea and biscuits very soon*.


*If not already.

 

[Emyr]

Tea and biscuits? I expect harsher.

 

[Redonian]

Looking at the "cab pic" it looks like a northbound shot of Ruabon from a 158. However the train was suppose to be heading south through there! Anyone else like to identify the location?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It does if your a senior manager and have a bonus scheme!

That looks very much like Ruabon. If so then it's a picture taken from the front of a northbound train though, I suspect, not from the cab. The other picture with the article also suggest a northbound train - track and platform on the right.
Given that the train in question was southbound then the pictures seem to be disingenuous.

 

[455driver]

See article for passenger pic from cab.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/arriva-trains-wales-investigate-claims-8364004

Good on the passengers to post the pictures on line so the driver is now in the sh+t!

This is why it isnt worth trying to help out, there is always some <deleted> who will take great pride in dropping the crew in the sh+t!

Edit-
Now appears the pictures might not be factual!
Fancy a newspaper doing that eh!

 

[Monty]

Now appears the pictures might not be factual!
Fancy a newspaper doing that eh!

quelle surprise! :roll:

If there were indeed passengers travelling in the driving cab at all I reckon it would of been the rear cab with the guard. Not that it's much better as fiddling with equipment at the back can still influence what's going on up front.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not that it's much better as fiddling with equipment at the back can still influence what's going on up front.

I hope that you are making reference to sections of a unit rather than being obtusely rude....

 

[Emyr]

I hope that you are making reference to sections of a unit rather than being obtusely rude....

That might be taking privatization a little too far.

 

[Monty]

I hope that you are making reference to sections of a unit rather than being obtusely rude....

I did just think that my last post could have been seen that way by the more dirty minded members of the forums.

The jist of it is not to interfere with a driver's rear end or you may provoke an undesired reaction!

I've done it again haven't I?

 

[merlodlliw]

The Daily Post have printed a follow up today

part of the report below written by David Powell Daily Post staff reporter

Rail bosses have confirmed they are investigating claims passengers were forced to travel in the driver’s cab because of severe overcrowding.

Arriva Trains Wales said they are taking very seriously the allegations that people on a morning Holyhead to Birmingham service on Saturday had been able to access secure areas.

Politicians said the lack of a legal limit on the numbers travelling meant people were being made to travel in “Third World conditions”.

An Arriva Trains Wales spokesperson said: “We operate our services within industry-wide safety limits. Currently, there are no official fixed capacity limits on the number of customers we can carry on trains, and the design of trains takes account of the likelihood of heavy loadings.

“This issue is also regularly discussed with relevant stakeholders and the Office of Rail Regulation.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/arriva-trains-wales-investigate-claims-8364004
Full version link is above
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That looks very much like Ruabon. If so then it's a picture taken from the front of a northbound train though, I suspect, not from the cab. The other picture with the article also suggest a northbound train - track and platform on the right.
Given that the train in question was southbound then the pictures seem to be disingenuous.

It looks very much like Ruabon,however without seeing the signage close up,it could be anywhere.

 

[bramling]

Travel for anyone is optional.

Commute for work - quit, get another job locally.
Travel to customers/suppliers for work - don't bother, only seek local customers/suppliers
Travel to family - If they don't live locally ignore them.

Precisely; if people were just a little more thoughtful and decided to travel a little less, this overcrowding wouldn't be happening. Same on the roads.

 

[BestWestern]

That looks very much like Ruabon. If so then it's a picture taken from the front of a northbound train though, I suspect, not from the cab. The other picture with the article also suggest a northbound train - track and platform on the right.
Given that the train in question was southbound then the pictures seem to be disingenuous.

Whilst I have no knowledge of the area, if a photograph was taken from the front of a train it's rather difficult to imagine where else the camera would have been if not in the cab? If we're referring to the snowy picture here rather than the saloon shot, as I understand the original Ruabon post was, it is most definitely the cab of a Class 158, Secondman's side. Unless the train was running 'wrong road' then it appears to be the leading end.

 

[merlodlliw]

Precisely; if people were just a little more thoughtful and decided to travel a little less, this overcrowding wouldn't be happening. Same on the roads.

Why are the passengers always to blame, the railway is for the benefit of the passenger, having a two coach 158, when another TOC cancels its service is not the blame of the passenger, some of whom may have visited sick relatives.

 

[berneyarms]

Why are the passengers always to blame, the railway is for the benefit of the passenger, having a two coach 158, when another TOC cancels its service is not the blame of the passenger, some of whom may have visited sick relatives.

The point is the other TOC should be taken to task on this.

It's all well and good blaming ATW - but really pressure needs to be put onto VT to ensure that this doesn't happen again, particularly when their train was sitting in Holyhead all day until 13:58.

There seems to be a fixation here with blaming ATW without actually dealing with the real cause of the problem - VT cancelling a train that they could have operated.

 

[amcluesent]

The inevitable investigation has started "for safety and security reasons" - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...acked-train-had-to-travel-in-drivers-cab.html

Some meaningless PR waffle from Arriva - "Some of our services were extremely busy however trains are built to robust industry standards recognising that peaks will occur due to the unpredictability of customers' travel patterns and there are no defined upper limits on the number of customers permitted to travel on-board a train."

 

[Bertie the bus]

Precisely; if people were just a little more thoughtful and decided to travel a little less, this overcrowding wouldn't be happening. Same on the roads.

Priceless.

 

[Tracky]

The inevitable investigation has started "for safety and security reasons" - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...acked-train-had-to-travel-in-drivers-cab.html

Some meaningless PR waffle from Arriva - "Some of our services were extremely busy however trains are built to robust industry standards recognising that peaks will occur due to the unpredictability of customers' travel patterns and there are no defined upper limits on the number of customers permitted to travel on-board a train."

The investigation isn't about overcrowding. It is into the suggestion that a member of the public travelled in the front cab of the train.

 

[PHILIPE]

There has been much debate on this subject, but, do we know the full facts and attempting to judge. We are not even certain whether the passengers are alleged to have travelled in the driver's cab or the rear cab.
If it was the driver's cab, apart from coming into contact with any equipment there is the question of affecting the driver's concentration. What would have happened if there had ben a SPAD. Suggest we are in possession of the full facts first.

 

[BestWestern]

There has been much debate on this subject, but, do we know the full facts and attempting to judge. We are not even certain whether the passengers are alleged to have travelled in the driver's cab or the rear cab.
If it was the driver's cab, apart from coming into contact with any equipment there is the question of affecting the driver's concentration. What would have happened if there had ben a SPAD. Suggest we are in possession of the full facts first.

A fair point of course, but either cab is off limits and both Driver and Guard will be well aware of that.

 

[Mark62]

Precisely; if people were just a little more thoughtful and decided to travel a little less, this overcrowding wouldn't be happening. Same on the roads.

The railways are publicly funded. Without public money we wouldn't have any railways or new rolling stock. Whatever happened to choice and accountability? Obviously it's not possible to simply put on extra trains at a seconds notice. But with forward planning then TOCs can put on extra rolling stock etc. it will be interesting to see what happens next year. I guarantee the TOCs will not do anything differently. Why should they? Their shareholders only want increased profits and putting on extra stock potentially reduces profit. As a privatised monopoly they don't have to worry about bad publicity becUse their income is guaranteed. There is no incentive to out on extra stock. And as they have no conscience or concern to anyone but their shareholders then this appalling situation will continue.
This is the true face of privatisation. Where business acts without regard. Consumers can't take their business elsewhere becUse the TOCs are a privatised monopoly with a licence to take money from the public and give little in return.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Suggest we are in possession of the full facts first.

What? That would ruin this forum....

 

[merlodlliw]

The point is the other TOC should be taken to task on this.

It's all well and good blaming ATW - but really pressure needs to be put onto VT to ensure that this doesn't happen again, particularly when their train was sitting in Holyhead all day until 13:58.

There seems to be a fixation here with blaming ATW without actually dealing with the real cause of the problem - VT cancelling a train that they could have operated.

with all respect, in my thread above I gained the impression the passenger was to blame, I did not blame ATW,but if ATW want to keep in the good books for an extension of its contract which seems likely, both they and VT had better sort out this problem of losing what must be near a thousand plus seats out of Holyhead due to no forward thinking.Having seen the problems caused by VT out of Wrexham, I dont think VT give a dam.
I can not think of any other time during a blockade, VT have failed to run some sort of service between Holyhead and Crewe, the one service was a total disgrace.

The spin from ATWs media office is priceless,

Arriva said that the incident was alleged to have taken place last weekend despite the company providing extra capacity.
"Over the weekend we ran over 1,300 services across our extensive network," it said.

 

[quarella]

The Daily Post have printed a follow up today

part of the report below written by David Powell Daily Post staff reporter


http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/arriva-trains-wales-investigate-claims-8364004
Full version link is above
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It looks very much like Ruabon,however without seeing the signage close up,it could be anywhere.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Ruabon_railway_station_2009-03-20.jpg

I think enough is there to identify it though, as others have said, the picture purporting to have been taken from the cab of the train in question is on the Wrexham bound platform.

 

[berneyarms]

with all respect, in my thread above I gained the impression the passenger was to blame, I did not blame ATW,but if ATW want to keep in the good books for an extension of its contract which seems likely, both they and VT had better sort out this problem of losing what must be near a thousand plus seats out of Holyhead due to no forward thinking.Having seen the problems caused by VT out of Wrexham, I dont think VT give a dam.
I can not think of any other time during a blockade, VT have failed to run some sort of service between Holyhead and Crewe, the one service was a total disgrace.

The spin from ATWs media office is priceless,

Given that you have stated that you are making representations about this to AMs etc. I wanted to re-emphasise the point that VT need to be taken to task about this, and specifically why they did not operate an 08:55 Holyhead-Chester and 11:16 Chester-Holyhead service using the Voyager that was sitting in Holyhead.

 

[LowLevel]

A fair point of course, but either cab is off limits and both Driver and Guard will be well aware of that.

Quite - I've been known to take a few cases or similar in and put them on the secondman's side though to create more breathing space and for me to operate the doors with the poxy design of the train. The way I look at it it's no different to carrying lost property or internal mail/parcels/catering deliveries as we do from time to time. I've also filled it up with drivers/guards/revenue staff travelling passenger to create more room.

Passengers though are alas a no