Arriva (Beds, Bucks, Herts)

[Deerfold]

You may recall a dispute a few years back when Arriva refused to pay for 757 the Green Line Coach to access the bus station and instead operated from the long stay car park bus stop. Eventually, the Airport backed down

I remember it. It wasn't about Arriva refusing to pay to access the bus station, but about the airport wanting to have just one coach service between the airport and London. The 797 returned by court order, not because the airport backed down (other than by accepting the authority of the court). The ruling of the court was that either all operators should have access or none, with the same rules for all.
I don't see the relevance here.

Because the airport want to make more money?

I understand what the airport may want them to do it. But it's not the airport running the routes.

 

[GusB]

I remember it. It wasn't about Arriva refusing to pay to access the bus station, but about the airport wanting to have just one coach service between the airport and London. The 797 returned by court order, not because the airport backed down (other than by accepting the authority of the court). The ruling of the court was that either all operators should have access or none, with the same rules for all.
I don't see the relevance here.

If there was a court order, there's likely to be a public record. Would you mind providing us with the details of that record, please? You're always so quick to demand that others provide sources.

Thanks

 

[markymark2000]

I understand what the airport may want them to do it. But it's not the airport running the routes

If it's private land, the airport can prevent access or possibly put in high access fees to heavily discourage usage. Same as how they do the parking. Park close by but you have to pay the drop off fee or park half a mile away and get a shuttle for free. In this instance, bus stops closer to the airport cost a lot per departure, bus stops at Parkway are free.

Not saying this is the plan, just giving an example of how the Airport could do it.

 

[Deerfold]

If there was a court order, there's likely to be a public record. Would you mind providing us with the details of that record, please? You're always so quick to demand that others provide sources.

Thanks

Not a problem. No need to be snarky, though.

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff72960d03e7f57ea8e66#:~:text=Conclusion%3A,ATS%20was%20entitled%20to%20relief.

Conclusion:

The Court ruled in favour of ATS, finding that Luton Operations abused its dominant market position by granting exclusivity to National Express, leading to distortions in the downstream market.
The Court rejected Luton Operations' justifications for exclusivity and held that ATS was entitle to relief.

If it's private land, the airport can prevent access or possibly put in high access fees to heavily discourage usage. Same as how they do the parking. Park close by but you have to pay the drop off fee or park half a mile away and get a shuttle for free. In this instance, bus stops closer to the airport cost a lot per departure, bus stops at Parkway are free.

Not saying this is the plan, just giving an example of how the Airport could do it.

in theory, but they'd struggle to only implement high charges for those travelling to/from Luton Parkway without putting off people coming from Hitchin or Nottingham by bus or coach. I can't see anyone doing that wanting to be dropped off at the parkway to catch the DART. Too many are likely to drive or use a different airport if they make it too convoluted or expensive to get to the airport by public transport.

 

[Haywain]

If it's private land, the airport can prevent access or possibly put in high access fees to heavily discourage usage. Same as how they do the parking. Park close by but you have to pay the drop off fee or park half a mile away and get a shuttle for free. In this instance, bus stops closer to the airport cost a lot per departure, bus stops at Parkway are free.

Not saying this is the plan, just giving an example of how the Airport could do it.

You are probably right but a significant proportion of those using bus services to access the airport are employed there, and not on high wages. They would not want or accept a longer and more expensive journey to work. The obvious solution would be to give them free travel on the DART but then that would remove any benefit from forcing them on to it.

 

[SteveHFC]

Details of the Luton & Dunstable area changes from 2nd June (over and above those for the 100/101/102 already mentioned) have been released ---> https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-news/changes-to-your-luton-services

In summary

Daytime frequencies remain unchanged across the board.

1 & 4 - Luton to Farley Hill - Revised timetable with additional services early morning and late evening.

12 - Luton to Stopsley - Revised timetable with additional services early morning and late evening.

13 & 14 - Luton to Round Green - Revised timetable

23 - Luton to Sundon Park - Revised timetable with additional evening services and a full Sunday service introduced.

24, 25 & 26 - Revised timetable with additional evening services and a full Sunday service on the 24 introduced.

27 - Luton to Marsh Farm - Revised timetable with additional evening services.

28 & 28B - Luton to Hockwell Ring/Linmere - Revised timetable with additional evening services.

29 - Luton to Runfold - Revised timetable with additional evening services.

31 - Luton to Dunstable - Revised timetable

32 - Luton to Hockwell Ring - Revised timetable with an amended route in Luton Town Centre. Additional Sunday evening services introduced.

321 - Luton to Watford - Revised timetable with more journeys to Watford General Hospital.

F70 & F77 - Luton to Milton Keynes - Extended to run to/from Luton Airport daily. Revised timetable with routes simplified for F70 to serve Tilsworth and Stanbridge, and F77 to serve Stoke Hammond.

A - Dunstable to Luton Airport - Revised timetable

Z - Luton to Dunstable - Revised timetable

 

[RELL6L]

The timetables for the changes in High Wycombe are finally available on Arriva (but only by searching, not linked to the changes page) and Buckinghamshire website, they have been on BusTimes for a few days.

No services now run every 15 minutes except the 3 which will no doubt remain standalone with Streetlites.

Every 20 minutes are the 2, 12 and 13. I was expecting the timetables to be such that they would interwork, or at least could do so in a way that required only 6 buses - at the moment sometimes some quite creative things are done like this. But no, just as the 13 arrives both the 2 and 12 leave and so the three routes look entirely standalone.

Every 30 minutes now are the 6/7, 10, 11 and 800/850. Again I was expecting more obvious interworking. I suspect the 11 will break from the 800/850 and interwork with the 10. These two together might then interwork also with the 6/7 or 800/850 although these might all be standalone. It could, in my view, have been more efficient had the 6/7 left Wycombe at 05 & 35 instead of 20 & 50 so that the lot could run 800/850 => 10 => 11 => 6/7. Probably 24 vehicles in total during the interpeak period instead of 28.

The 4 switches to Carousel with a good increase in service to every 30 minutes although via a different route, meaning the Sands area west of the A4010 loses its service.

The level of service has deteriorated sharply over the last week with far more breakdowns. Last Tuesday in Henley fitters were attending to an E400 on one side of the road and a Citaro on the other at the same time. The Citaro (3012, not tracking) was barely delayed but the E400 left after the attention almost an hour late, closely followed by the next 800. I think only 23 vehicles have been out today, the daytime requirement is 28 with 1 or 2 more in the peaks. The 800/850 are not helped by the road between Marlow and Henley being closed with lengthy delays. 3007, 3027, 3029, 2953, 2956, 2982 and 4212 have been off service or rarely out for some time. At this rate they won't have enough vehicles here even after the service reductions.

Meanwhile the App has, for several days, said "There are no services on this date" for anything I have searched for. They just seem to be giving up.

 

[markymark2000]

in theory, but they'd struggle to only implement high charges for those travelling to/from Luton Parkway without putting off people coming from Hitchin or Nottingham by bus or coach. I can't see anyone doing that wanting to be dropped off at the parkway to catch the DART. Too many are likely to drive or use a different airport if they make it too convoluted or expensive to get to the airport by public transport.

You are probably right but a significant proportion of those using bus services to access the airport are employed there, and not on high wages. They would not want or accept a longer and more expensive journey to work. The obvious solution would be to give them free travel on the DART but then that would remove any benefit from forcing them on to it.

I agree with both of you in that it would be a daft idea. I was merely saying how they could try to do it to push buses to drop off outside. Let's be honest, it's not like some airports aren't already doing it such as Edinburgh Airport and hence why Ember and Flixbus only serve Ingliston Park and Ride rather than Edinburgh Airport.

 

[GusB]

Posts concerning the closure of Aylesbury and High Wycombe depots have been moved to a separate thread:

Arriva to close Aylesbury and High Wycombe depots

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-news/proposed-closure-of-aylesbury-and-high-wycombe-depots In not altogether surprising news, Arriva is proposing to close Aylesbury and Wycombe depots. Well, can't say I'm all that surprised. Thought Aylesbury would go before Wycombe, but I guess it makes...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Voyager 2953]

E300 3580 has been put back into service as of this morning.

 

[Fletcj10]

E300 3580 has been put back into service as of this morning.

Got a photo of it... i was surprised to see it

 

[philjo]

intalink have sent out publicity advising that the 328 Watford to Mount Vernon hospital service has transferred from Arriva to Red Rose .

Red Rose to take over as new operator for service 328, replacing the Arriva service from Sunday 2nd June.​

The service will operate generally every hour, Mondays to Saturdays from Abbots Langley to Watford town centre and every 30 minutes from Watford town centre to South Oxhey and Mount Vernon Hospital.

Sundays will operate from Watford to Mount Vernon Hospital every hour. There will be some changes to peak-hour journeys and the South Way terminus in Abbots Langley will be served.

The timetable will be up on the website shortly and we are currently working to get the roadside timetables printed and posted as quickly as we can.

Red Rose to take over running of Service 328 from Sunday 2nd June

Red Rose will commence running of service 328 from 2nd June

www.intalink.org.uk

 

[Bedford OB]

Intersting among all the general gloom and despondency that Arriva have continued their recent return to some printed timetables with a nice 16 page booklet for the revised 100/101/102 Luton to Stevenage services, including a two page map in the middle.

 

[Failed Unit]

Again, is there a large number of people willing to travel all the way from east of St Albans to Heathrow? Even for the tempting £2 single fare and the 724 being limited stop, the slow radial route would be no match for Hatfield, Welwyn, Ware or Harlow when taking a train into any London termini and thereon Crossrail is quicker and more frequent. As for radial journeys between Hertford and Watford and the like - again, I wouldn't guess a huge number would travel by bus, given the M25 conveniently parallels the 724.

It is hard to tell if the number is large. I am often tempted to use it but to scared to. It is actually competative on the timetable with they train (A-B timewise) and the fact that you sit on the bus and don't need to worry about changing between trians and tubes etc. Cost wise £2 is a no-brainer.

However it is unreliable in my opinion, travelling to St Albans I just get what turns up first but going to Heathrow I feel I would need to give myself extra time to get to the airport, as the service is hourly that is a lot of contigency.

I may try it once, But it isn't the first time I have experience 20min+ delays waiting for that bus. You never know how late it really is because in Welwyn Garden City a 301 will turn up and you just don't wait any longer.

 

[greenline712]

There never were many passengers travelling from (say) Hatfield to Heathrow, even back in the 1980s and 1990s . . . but there were some. You'd be surprised how many passengers really don't like crossing London, especially before the Elizabeth Line was opened . . . one journey, no need to manhandle luggage between train and tube . . . even if only half a dozen pax, paying a normal fare, is an acceptable load. As an ex-driver on Green Line 727, we often had a decent number from St Albans / Watford to Gatwick Airport on daytime journeys.

The whole point about long distance routes is that you can sell the seat several times over, so Heathrow-Watford can be resold as Watford-Hatfield (University) and again as Hatfield-Hertford and Hertford-Harlow. Shorter-distance fares are higher, so the finances work better as well . . . and yes, I know about the £2 fare, and how it screws the finances. That's one of the reasons why operators are getting twitchy about December 2024 . . .

 

[RELL6L]

Three double deckers on the 321 today - first time in years?

 

[arrivamatt]

Three double deckers on the 321 today - first time in years?

Absolutely - we're trialing double deck buses on the route on weekends. Three boards have been selected on Saturdays, four on Sundays. Our rationale is to boost additional seats per hour where there's a reduced frequency (route 721 only operates Monday to Friday).

If successful, we may look to use double deckers on selected journeys during weekdays.

 

[A0wen]

There never were many passengers travelling from (say) Hatfield to Heathrow, even back in the 1980s and 1990s . . . but there were some. You'd be surprised how many passengers really don't like crossing London, especially before the Elizabeth Line was opened . . . one journey, no need to manhandle luggage between train and tube . . . even if only half a dozen pax, paying a normal fare, is an acceptable load. . . .

As somebody who lived in that area in that time, the other factor was journey time - even now the 724 is timed 2 hours from Hatfield - Heathrow.

The alternative was a 20-30 min train journey to Kings Cross a walk to the Piccadilly Line platforms then an hour on the Picc which even then got very busy through central London and you can see why 2 hours on what was usually a comfortable Leyland Tiger was more attractive.

 

[RELL6L]

Absolutely - we're trialing double deck buses on the route on weekends. Three boards have been selected on Saturdays, four on Sundays. Our rationale is to boost additional seats per hour where there's a reduced frequency (route 721 only operates Monday to Friday).

If successful, we may look to use double deckers on selected journeys during weekdays.

That's excellent news. It was a surprise seeing one in St Albans yesterday. I grew up to the 321 with 17 boards of AN-class Atlanteans, preceded by RTs. At that time a round trip from Luton to Uxbridge was 4 hours 30 minutes - now it takes 4 hours round trip just to Watford! I hope perhaps some of the newer deckers from Aylesbury and High Wycombe might head to Luton come July? Only one decker out today though, I hope this is deemed a success.

 

[Statto]

The 724 is more useful for fast East to West links across Hertfordshire than end to end journeys, someone going from Hatfield, or Welwyn through to St Albans or Watford (& vice versa) is more likely to get a 724.

 

[derbybusdepot]

It was disappointing to see the digital displays at Luton Airport showing incorrect departure times on Tuesday for arriva route A. Sunday departures were displayed.

 

[Saint66]

Three double deckers on the 321 today - first time in years?

I thought I had gone back in time when I saw a double decker 321 yesterday!

A double decker was also spotted on the 302 over the weekend as well.

 

[Edvid]

Looks like a new X1 limited stop route between Milton Keynes and Luton has been applied for, starting 21 July. Arriva must believe there's enough custom (including existing passengers on the Stagecoach MK1) to make it viable; from Luton, my guess is the X1 will use the busway and A505 up to just north of Dunstable (as the F70/77 do), then continue along the A5 and enter Milton Keynes from the south/west. The MK1 already uses the M1 between J11 and 13, and that stretch will continue to be affected by central reservation roadworks for close to another year...

 

[DarloRich]

In addition to the exciting introduction of Arriva double deckers in MK we also seem to have some kind of bus running around in Southend transport colours. Seems a bit off route!

 

[espicer]

In addition to the exciting introduction of Arriva double deckers in MK we also seem to have some kind of bus running around in Southend transport colours. Seems a bit off route!

That bus has been in MK for approx a year I believe, interesting that they are keeping the Southend colours though!

 

[EnviroExplorer]

That bus has been in MK for approx a year I believe, interesting that they are keeping the Southend colours though!

Due to its age I strongly suspect it was deemed not economical to repaint. Volvo B7RLEs are also non-standard in the Arriva fleet, so a major failure will probably see it withdrawn anyway.

 

[espicer]

Due to its age I strongly suspect it was deemed not economical to repaint. Volvo B7RLEs are also non-standard in the Arriva fleet, so a major failure will probably see it withdrawn anyway.

Yeah, good point. Seen a few examples of that recently. One buses engine blew the other day, another caught on fire about a month ago and there’s only a handful left so they’ll probably be gone soon

 

[DarloRich]

That bus has been in MK for approx a year I believe, interesting that they are keeping the Southend colours though!

Due to its age I strongly suspect it was deemed not economical to repaint. Volvo B7RLEs are also non-standard in the Arriva fleet, so a major failure will probably see it withdrawn anyway.

It is stalking me and if they are waiting for It to die it seems fit and well compared to some of the others!

 

[SheikhYerbooty]

Sounds to me like Arriva in Luton and Stagecoach in Bedford have thrown their toys out of their respective prams…
First Stagecoach reroute the MK1 partially away from the direct Luton to Luton airport route via Crawley Green Road and Wigmore.
Next Stagecoach steps into the Hitchin to Stevenage corridor.
Then Arriva counters by rerouting the 100/101 to also follow the Crawley Green Road Route and Wigmore.
Then Stagecoach slips in the LAX to also run that route in addition to the MK1.
Now Arriva counters with the X1 Luton to Milton Keynes….

Am I reading too much into this?

 

[espicer]

Sounds to me like Arriva in Luton and Stagecoach in Bedford have thrown their toys out of their respective prams…
First Stagecoach reroute the MK1 partially away from the direct Luton to Luton airport route via Crawley Green Road and Wigmore.
Next Stagecoach steps into the Hitchin to Stevenage corridor.
Then Arriva counters by rerouting the 100/101 to also follow the Crawley Green Road Route and Wigmore.
Then Stagecoach slips in the LAX to also run that route in addition to the MK1.
Now Arriva counters with the X1 Luton to Milton Keynes….

Am I reading too much into this?

Yeah I just saw the LAX route this morning. Wonder what that stands for, surely nothing to do with Los Angeles airport! I think Arriva are doing the X1 route because they’ve seen how many customers go from Luton to Milton Keynes on the MK1, especially when the MK1 turns up at the same time as the F77, so they probably want to try and get some of those customers. I’m not sure why Stagecoach are doing the LAX route though, maybe to get more buses going to the airport?

Yeah I just saw the LAX route this morning. Wonder what that stands for, surely nothing to do with Los Angeles airport! I think Arriva are doing the X1 route because they’ve seen how many customers go from Luton to Milton Keynes on the MK1, especially when the MK1 turns up at the same time as the F77, so they probably want to try and get some of those customers. I’m not sure why Stagecoach are doing the LAX route though, maybe to get more buses going to the airport?

By ‘I just saw the LAX route this morning, I meant I saw it on bus times