Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thank you for that genuinely interesting insight into the way the things go at arriva. I assume this differs in London where are there are some slightly more stringent requirements.

Where there are particular contract requirements, mainly London but you may have specific contract requirements, then they can price in that investment cost.

It's the majority of the provincial operations where there's a lack of investment for standard fleet replacement. More immediately, they can effect "fleet replacement" (i.e. wiping out the life expired fleet) via fleet reductions as services are pared back. If you have to replace c.7% of your fleet per annum, and you're cutting 5-10% off your PVR anyway, you're there.

The problem is that this is on top of poor levels of investment in the last five years - it is eerily reminiscent of the First fleet challenges a few years ago with an aging fleet profile and newish vehicles being shunted around to accommodate any specific requirements e.g. shifting e200mmc from Maidstone to Harlow (724 environmental requirements) or to Colchester (park and ride age requirement).

 

[Titfield]

Oh no, the dreaded contravision. I’m sure most passengers would prefer to see out of the window clearly

Contravision works well (ie you can see out from the inside) when it has been applied recently. But over time grime gradually "fills in" the perforated holes and the ability to see out clearly diminishes rapidly. In my experience no form of vehicle cleaning actually removes the grime from the perforations. Brushes or fibres simply wipe over the top not extracting the grime.

The operator I worked for ceased using contravision as we simply got too many complaints that it made the vehicle interiors dark and claustrophobic. Some passengers even complained it induced a form of car sickness.

 

[M803UYA]

Where there are particular contract requirements, mainly London but you may have specific contract requirements, then they can price in that investment cost.

It's the majority of the provincial operations where there's a lack of investment for standard fleet replacement. More immediately, they can effect "fleet replacement" (i.e. wiping out the life expired fleet) via fleet reductions as services are pared back. If you have to replace c.7% of your fleet per annum, and you're cutting 5-10% off your PVR anyway, you're there.

The problem is that this is on top of poor levels of investment in the last five years - it is eerily reminiscent of the First fleet challenges a few years ago with an aging fleet profile and newish vehicles being shunted around to accommodate any specific requirements e.g. shifting e200mmc from Maidstone to Harlow (724 environmental requirements) or to Colchester (park and ride age requirement).

I wasn't intending to put my previous post bluntly, but that is how Arriva worked/works in the provinces. The new investment was conditional on achieving targets. I know this as I spent my time in the company sat beside a corporate poster, which presumably covered over a crack in the wall. It didn't do much that was decorative!
In the case of the company I worked in, it was normal to trim off one/two buses each network change at the depots - and even then you had depots which were borderline unprofitable because of the policy of chopping a bus out each change.
So posters on here suggesting the 724, for instance needs dedicated proper vehicles for the type of operation, aren't going to see them as the parent operating company loses money. Quite a lot of money, even before Covid. You'd be more likely to see the route withdrawn as uneconomic.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I wasn't intending to put my previous post bluntly, but that is how Arriva worked/works in the provinces. The new investment was conditional on achieving targets. I know this as I spent my time in the company sat beside a corporate poster, which presumably covered over a crack in the wall. It didn't do much that was decorative!
In the case of the company I worked in, it was normal to trim off one/two buses each network change at the depots - and even then you had depots which were borderline unprofitable because of the policy of chopping a bus out each change.
So posters on here suggesting the 724, for instance needs dedicated proper vehicles for the type of operation, aren't going to see them as the parent operating company loses money. Quite a lot of money, even before Covid. You'd be more likely to see the route withdrawn as uneconomic.

We are in violent agreement

One of my mates is also a former Arriva manager. Business cases were predicated on hitting financial targets and there was also the culture of trimming away at PVRs to wring the last bit of margin out of the fleet. This is compounded by a lack of capital investment as they go for the guaranteed returns of running buses in London or trains in Lower Saxony or cycle schemes in Limberg rather than the risk of commercial services in the UK.

We have seen a trickle of new vehicles into Merseyside and Luton but it's really fairly thin gruel.

 

[Robertj21a]

We are in violent agreement

One of my mates is also a former Arriva manager. Business cases were predicated on hitting financial targets and there was also the culture of trimming away at PVRs to wring the last bit of margin out of the fleet. This is compounded by a lack of capital investment as they go for the guaranteed returns of running buses in London or trains in Lower Saxony or cycle schemes in Limberg rather than the risk of commercial services in the UK.

We have seen a trickle of new vehicles into Merseyside and Luton but it's really fairly thin gruel.

So, nothing new for the provincial South, Midlands, Yorkshire or North East !

 

[A0wen]

So posters on here suggesting the 724, for instance needs dedicated proper vehicles for the type of operation, aren't going to see them as the parent operating company loses money. Quite a lot of money, even before Covid. You'd be more likely to see the route withdrawn as uneconomic.

Such posters also ignore that for most of the 724's life it has had "standard" vehicles - RFs, RCs and RPs in London Transport days, London Country then had the "coach" Nationals moving onto the later Reliances (RS, RB) and then Tigers (TP/TD etc) - all from a "common" pool. Interestingly it was only in privatisation that the 724 had "dedicated" vehicles - initially the DAFs then the Citaros. The thing with the 724 is it needs easy access vehicles - which is where traditional coaches were problematic, being slow to load and at places like St Albans on market day, that's not a good combination. There are also relatively few people using it as the way to get to Heathrow from points east of Watford - it's too slow (it has always been relatively slow) and when Crossrail opens Harlow, Ware, Hertford, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and St Albans will be able to get there by train with one change and a much, much faster journey time.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Such posters also ignore that for most of the 724's life it has had "standard" vehicles - RFs, RCs and RPs in London Transport days, London Country then had the "coach" Nationals moving onto the later Reliances (RS, RB) and then Tigers (TP/TD etc) - all from a "common" pool. Interestingly it was only in privatisation that the 724 had "dedicated" vehicles - initially the DAFs then the Citaros. The thing with the 724 is it needs easy access vehicles - which is where traditional coaches were problematic, being slow to load and at places like St Albans on market day, that's not a good combination. There are also relatively few people using it as the way to get to Heathrow from points east of Watford - it's too slow (it has always been relatively slow) and when Crossrail opens Harlow, Ware, Hertford, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and St Albans will be able to get there by train with one change and a much, much faster journey time.

The argument is that it needs a particular type of vehicle for that sort of journey; whilst the coach bodied Reliances and Tigers weren't dedicated to the route, they are perhaps a reflection of the possible journey length. However, that was principally before the M25, traffic congestion was not as pronounced and the passenger journey duration was longer as doubtless, it was more attractive comparatively.

That isn't the case now - it is a series of overlapping inter-urban sections; people aren't travelling from Hertford to Heathrow. The use of anything coach bodied would be ridiculous for the reasons you point out. If we're looking at a low-floor single decker with high-backed seats... well the current fleet is just that. It's the usual refrain about having heavyweights etc but then the fuel costs would probably threaten the viability

 

[alex397]

Having coaches on the route would be ridiculous and slow down loading times. I’m not sure many people are suggesting coaches are used on the route. As I have said quite a few times previously, while it would be rare to have someone travel from Essex or eastern Herts to Heathrow, people do travel relatively long distances on this route compared to the average bus service. I would say it would be appropriate to have something a bit better than something designed for lesser journeys. Having E200MMCs is not necessarily an issue, as these are better quality that the rattly original E200s, but ideally buses for this route should have a better specification.

 

[A0wen]

Having coaches on the route would be ridiculous and slow down loading times. I’m not sure many people are suggesting coaches are used on the route. As I have said quite a few times previously, while it would be rare to have someone travel from Essex or eastern Herts to Heathrow, people do travel relatively long distances on this route compared to the average bus service. I would say it would be appropriate to have something a bit better than something designed for lesser journeys. Having E200MMCs is not necessarily an issue, as these are better quality that the rattly original E200s, but ideally buses for this route should have a better specification.

Bit in bold - but do they really ?

Hertford - St Albans is about an hour, the same as taking the 310 from Hertford to Enfield. The 331 from Hertford to Buntingford takes 50 minutes - neither the 310 or 331 justify coach seated vehicles.

Similarly Hatfield - Watford takes about an hour on the 724 - Hatfield - Hemel is 1h 15m on the 302 - again the 302 doesn't justify coach seated vehicles.

 

[Robertj21a]

Bit in bold - but do they really ?

Hertford - St Albans is about an hour, the same as taking the 310 from Hertford to Enfield. The 331 from Hertford to Buntingford takes 50 minutes - neither the 310 or 331 justify coach seated vehicles.

Similarly Hatfield - Watford takes about an hour on the 724 - Hatfield - Hemel is 1h 15m on the 302 - again the 302 doesn't justify coach seated vehicles.

Aren't they trialling a Scania Omnicity from Derby on the 724 to see if a swap would be worthwhile ?

 

[A0wen]

Aren't they trialling a Scania Omnicity from Derby on the 724 to see if a swap would be worthwhile ?

No idea - but given the last Scania Omnicity was produced in 2012 that would mean they are at least 10 years old - not sure that's a great idea. And there is an added complexity that the 724 runs partly through the TFL LEZ, so any vehicle needs to be Euro 6 - which basically means post 2015.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Bit in bold - but do they really ?

Hertford - St Albans is about an hour, the same as taking the 310 from Hertford to Enfield. The 331 from Hertford to Buntingford takes 50 minutes - neither the 310 or 331 justify coach seated vehicles.

Similarly Hatfield - Watford takes about an hour on the 724 - Hatfield - Hemel is 1h 15m on the 302 - again the 302 doesn't justify coach seated vehicles.

In truth, only Arriva would know that. I'd suspect that average journey durations are longer but wouldn't justify any much more than Sapphire spec seating

 

[Statto]

I see the 724 more of an express bus service, than a coach service, very like the old 725 & 726 (now TFL X26). Greenline created the routes, so Greenline could operate orbital east to west routes avoiding Central London; it just happens that 724 still has Greenline branding. The 724 is more use as a east to west links between the Towns in Hertfordshire, than an end to end service.

I know they'll never be released, but i'd love to know what the loadings on the 724 are like on the to Uxbridge & Heathrow section since the rearranging of the fares south of Maple Cross a few years back. It's premium fares to & from Uxbridge & Heathrow which is a backward step, while it's normal fares & passes Maple Cross to Harlow.

 

[philthetube]

I have travelled Heathrow, Watford a few times and 10 on board leaving Heathrow is not uncommon, the route definitely needs something with extra luggage space, that is more of a priority than seating.

 

[LUYMun]

Supposing if the luggage problem isn't rectified from the completion of the first unit, some midlife refurbishment would force it to provide adequate space - when would that midlife be, we won't know!

 

[CBlue]

No idea - but given the last Scania Omnicity was produced in 2012 that would mean they are at least 10 years old - not sure that's a great idea. And there is an added complexity that the 724 runs partly through the TFL LEZ, so any vehicle needs to be Euro 6 - which basically means post 2015.

Scania in question is 3556 YR58SRY so likely EuroIV, unless it's had exhaust upgrades.

Given these Scanias aren't well known for their fuel economy they wouldn't be an improvement over the E200s in terms of running costs for a start. Never mind that they're barely two years newer than the citaros that were recently replaced...

 

[Volvodart]

According to the government website, it is clean air zone exempt.

 

[Robertj21a]

Scania in question is 3556 YR58SRY so likely EuroIV, unless it's had exhaust upgrades.

Given these Scanias aren't well known for their fuel economy they wouldn't be an improvement over the E200s in terms of running costs for a start. Never mind that they're barely two years newer than the citaros that were recently replaced...

Derby has enough of these to do a straight swap. They will avoid the need for replacement for a few years and are quite reliable (Scanias), albeit fuel hungry.

 

[CBlue]

Derby has enough of these to do a straight swap. They will avoid the need for replacement for a few years and are quite reliable (Scanias), albeit fuel hungry.

...but the current fleet is comprised of perfectly decent E200 MMCs that are barely 5 years old. Replacing those with 14 year old Scanias is a significant downgrade.

 

[Robertj21a]

...but the current fleet is comprised of perfectly decent E200 MMCs that are barely 5 years old. Replacing those with 14 year old Scanias is a significant downgrade.

Perhaps not profitable enough to justify keeping the E20D MMCs if they can be more useful elsewhere ?

 

[M803UYA]

Perhaps not profitable enough to justify keeping the E20D MMCs if they can be more useful elsewhere ?

Whilst the operating costs might be higher (fuel) the depreciation charges on 10+ year old buses would be lower than a batch of 5 year old Enviro 200 MMCs. If the switch is made over to Scania then that suggests the route is not performing in line with expectations the company has in relation to passenger numbers and revenues. The route had branded Mercedes Citaros before this.

 

[A0wen]

According to the government website, it is clean air zone exempt.

Not "clean air zone" - TFL's LEZ - which the 724 runs through from Uxbridge - Heathrow and buses are only exempt if they are Euro 6 or better..

 

[Surreyman]

Not "clean air zone" - TFL's LEZ - which the 724 runs through from Uxbridge - Heathrow and buses are only exempt if they are Euro 6 or better..

I believe most/all of Arrivas Derby fleet were upgraded to Euro 6 a while ago.

 

[duncombec]

I believe most/all of Arrivas Derby fleet were upgraded to Euro 6 a while ago.

As part of the "Clean Bus technology fund":

Derby Connected | Supporting projects

www.derbyconnected.com

• Arriva plan to retrofit 55 vehicles starting in August 2019 and additionally have taken delivery of 19 brand new Euro VI compliant vehicles which were put into service during February and March 2019.

https://www.derby.gov.uk/media/derb...ansport/Bus-Service-Improvement-Plan-2021.pdf (section 2.1.5)

There are over 213 buses used to deliver the current Derby bus network. Based on the available data, these have an age range from some that are 1 year old up to a couple that are 13 years old. The average age is 7.5 years old, with the individual fleet average ages ranging from 6.7 years old to 8.8 years old. Of the available vehicle fleet information, 170 of the 213 vehicles, 80%, are EURO VI compliant. This is significantly better than the average for England outside of London that stood at 30% EURO VI compliance in the Department for Transports, England 2019/20 Annual bus statistics release (October 2020).

 

[A0wen]

I have travelled Heathrow, Watford a few times and 10 on board leaving Heathrow is not uncommon, the route definitely needs something with extra luggage space, that is more of a priority than seating.

The problem with that means down-seated vehicles to ~40 seats rather than ~50 seats - and between Watford and St Albans or St Albans and Hatfield / Welwyn that would mean having standing passengers as those corridors are much busier.

TBH I'm surprised Arriva simply haven't done what London Country did in the mid 80s to the 724 - they renumbered it 524 and truncated it to run Watford - Harlow as an express bus. Would remove the need for a couple of vehicles, probably improve overall time-keeping and save a few pounds into the bargain.

If there's that much demand for a Watford - Heathrow coach I'm sure somebody would step into the market to provide it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The problem with that means down-seated vehicles to ~40 seats rather than ~50 seats - and between Watford and St Albans or St Albans and Hatfield / Welwyn that would mean having standing passengers as those corridors are much busier.

TBH I'm surprised Arriva simply haven't done what London Country did in the mid 80s to the 724 - they renumbered it 524 and truncated it to run Watford - Harlow as an express bus. Would remove the need for a couple of vehicles, probably improve overall time-keeping and save a few pounds into the bargain.

If there's that much demand for a Watford - Heathrow coach I'm sure somebody would step into the market to provide it.

My thought was that the 724 might be split (St Albans) anyhow if only to help service reliability over such a long route; by splitting it, you can also have older kit on the non ULEZ bit?

 

[A0wen]

My thought was that the 724 might be split (St Albans) anyhow if only to help service reliability over such a long route; by splitting it, you can also have older kit on the non ULEZ bit?

St Albans is a pain to turn around at unless you do a one-way loop. Add in you've already got *a lot* of buses covering the St Albans - Hatfield / Welwyn stretch (Arriva already provide 4 / hour along there).

You'd also be losing the link between Welwyn / Hatfield and Watford - UNO's 602 does do Hatfield - Watford but takes 2 hours because it goes via Radlett etc compared to the 724 which takes just over an hour. The 635 which is quicker than the 602 only runs Mon - Fri and has a particularly random timetable.....

 

[philthetube]

Service reliability is actually quite good on the 724, last time I travelled the fare was £10* single to Heathrow so this is quite a decent revenue stream.

* this is three years ago.

The route generally seems to have decent loadings but not overloaded.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Service reliability is actually quite good on the 724, last time I travelled the fare was £10* single to Heathrow so this is quite a decent revenue stream.

* this is three years ago.

The route generally seems to have decent loadings but not overloaded.

My experience was less good but then again, it was during the fuel panic so service reliability was bad everywhere

 

[Statto]

Service reliability is actually quite good on the 724, last time I travelled the fare was £10* single to Heathrow so this is quite a decent revenue stream.

* this is three years ago.

The route generally seems to have decent loadings but not overloaded.

724 to Heathrow is now £12 single, which i think is a bit of a rip off, the Arriva Herts & Essex, All Zone ticket, isn't valid to Heathrow, but the All Zone looks like it's valid to Uxbridge (i thought it was Maple Cross), so change at Uxbridge for the TfL A10, Arriva All Zone day ticket £7.90, the TfL A10, £1.65, even returning on the A10 then 724 you're still saving money