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Arriva for sale?

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Surreyman

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They are very unlikely to be allowed to buy UK bus operations, by the CMA
Certainly not all but some parts would be allowed if not adjacent to existing operations.
As others have said, if sale goes ahead (& assuming not a 'float') than a sale of the entire operation to a very sizeable Financial Institution. (Who might then decide to sell on some parts).
 
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cactustwirly

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Why not? They may have to sell some of it if it would reduce consumer choice, but the vast majority of Arriva's bus operations do not have any effective competition or indeed any at all.

Because it'll give Stagecoach a massive monopoly, and they would have to sell off a huge amount, so it wouldn't be worthwhile.
Nothing stopping Stagecoach from buying individual depots though
 

Chester1

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Because it'll give Stagecoach a massive monopoly, and they would have to sell off a huge amount, so it wouldn't be worthwhile.
Nothing stopping Stagecoach from buying individual depots though

I guess it depends what Stagecoach actually want. If its Arriva's operations in Europe then its worth buying the whole business and then selling off huge chunks of the UK bus business to satisfy the CMA. I would prefer Arriva being bought by investors so that there is another UK based international transport business.
 

DavidGrain

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As far as I can see the only UK transport operator who could purchase the whole of Arriva is National Express but that would be a mouthfull as Arriva in revenue terms is double to size of NatEx. I do not think there would be competition problems except possibly in Spain but I have not looked at NatEx's operations in Spain. DB definitely want a cash sale and I don't see how NatEx can do that without a massive dilution of their own shareholder's equity. However such things have been done in the past so it is not without some possibility.
 

NorthernSpirit

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It's possible Nat Exp and Rotala are the most likley companies, However Transdev would only be looking for some higher end areas. Go Ahead would be interested in two parts straight off the bat in southern England.

Remember Rotala does have money to burn.

Wouldn't Go Ahead have to face the same competition regulations considering that they already own Southern?

Are fringe operations like Grand Central rail and Yorkshire Tiger bus at risk from DB's decision to look for a buyer for Arriva?

I could see Yorkshire Tiger becoming employee owned (bon voyage to all evening and Sunday services then) as its Arriva's low cost unit (low cost as in making the poorly maintained fleet last a little longer) and I'm not just applying it to Yorkshire Tiger either but all the other Arriva low cost units too. Speaking of which isn't Centrebus partially owned by Arriva?

Grand Central however may either be bought back by the previous management who owned it as its an open access operator. The same cannot be said for Chiltern and Northern since they're franchises and how I'm seeing it should Arriva sell these operations off seperately, then the Northern franchise (which seems to be ran on the same budget level as Yorkshire Tiger) may be brought back "in house" as I just can't see anyone wanting it. Chiltern though does have some potential since it serves a small part of the Home Counties where money isn't a problem as is practially spilling out of London and into Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Sussex and Hampshire. So its possible that Chiltern is more likely to be bought by a group of investors who are based in the Home Counties but I'd rather see both local rail franchises being sold together - but would the group of investors want the bus division? I've discounted Cross Country as that's up for renewal next year.
 
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NorthernSpirit

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No chance! I'm not sure that Stagecoach have the resources to buy Arriva

Brian Souter could always get Arron Banks, Tim Martin and a few other investors to buy the operation together then sell off the bits that they don't want.

The other option is to follow the "building society model" to try and buy the whole thing with a load of small investors, who could then sell they're shares off for a nominal sum - similar to the early days of Abbey National when it became a bank.
 

DavidGrain

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The other option is to follow the "building society model" to try and buy the whole thing with a load of small investors, who could then sell they're shares off for a nominal sum - similar to the early days of Abbey National when it became a bank.

I don't understand your point here. The only way to get a lot of small investors is to do a floatation on the stock exchange either in London or Amsterdam. Not Frankfurt as there is no German operation. Most of the shares will be taken up by financial institutions mainly pension funds unless you do a big 'Tell Sid' advertising campaign all over Europe. And why would the small investors then sell their shares off at a lost as you are advocating?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I've discounted Cross Country as that's up for renewal next year.

So is Chiltern, so its value is limited.
Both may get direct award extensions, however, depending on how Williams turns out.
There's also the London Overground TfL concession - potentially very valuable and low risk, runs until 2024.
 

Robertj21a

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Wouldn't Go Ahead have to face the same competition regulations considering that they already own Southern?



I could see Yorkshire Tiger becoming employee owned (bon voyage to all evening and Sunday services then) as its Arriva's low cost unit (low cost as in making the poorly maintained fleet last a little longer) and I'm not just applying it to Yorkshire Tiger either but all the other Arriva low cost units too. Speaking of which isn't Centrebus partially owned by Arriva?

Grand Central however may either be bought back by the previous management who owned it as its an open access operator. The same cannot be said for Chiltern and Northern since they're franchises and how I'm seeing it should Arriva sell these operations off seperately, then the Northern franchise (which seems to be ran on the same budget level as Yorkshire Tiger) may be brought back "in house" as I just can't see anyone wanting it. Chiltern though does have some potential since it serves a small part of the Home Counties where money isn't a problem as is practially spilling out of London and into Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Sussex and Hampshire. So its possible that Chiltern is more likely to be bought by a group of investors who are based in the Home Counties but I'd rather see both local rail franchises being sold together - but would the group of investors want the bus division? I've discounted Cross Country as that's up for renewal next year.

Arriva doesn't own any part of Centrebus.
 

NorthernSpirit

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I don't understand your point here. The only way to get a lot of small investors is to do a floatation on the stock exchange either in London or Amsterdam. Not Frankfurt as there is no German operation. Most of the shares will be taken up by financial institutions mainly pension funds unless you do a big 'Tell Sid' advertising campaign all over Europe and why would the small investors then sell their shares off at a lost as you are advocating?

A company near me called Suma Wholefoods is operated as a social enterprise whereby the staff are the shareholders, now using that model which is similar to a building society (i.e. ran by members for members) could be employed here to privately purchase a multi-billion quid operation without having to float the thing on the London Stock Exchange.

I'm also advocating that the small investors sell their shares off for a profit - these small shares are then purchased by someone or a even a number of small groups who would then either try and buy the other shares from the other shareholders, this way those with cash to burn would become eventually the new main shareholders of the new venture.
 

Bletchleyite

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A company near me called Suma Wholefoods is operated as a social enterprise whereby the staff are the shareholders

That's an employee co-operative (as distinct from a members' one), it doesn't have to be a social enterprise, it can be pure for-profit. There are a few about - the Edinburgh Bicycle Cooperative is one, and the John Lewis Partnership sort of is on a similar model.
 

Mikey C

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No way could an employee co-operative work for a business as large and potentially risky as Arriva, especially the rail operations
 

DavidGrain

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A company near me called Suma Wholefoods is operated as a social enterprise whereby the staff are the shareholders, now using that model which is similar to a building society (i.e. ran by members for members) could be employed here to privately purchase a multi-billion quid operation without having to float the thing on the London Stock Exchange.

I'm also advocating that the small investors sell their shares off for a profit - these small shares are then purchased by someone or a even a number of small groups who would then either try and buy the other shares from the other shareholders, this way those with cash to burn would become eventually the new main shareholders of the new venture.

So your answer would be for the 60,000+ employees of Arriva to club together to buy the company and then sell it. In your original suggestion you said the small shareholders would sell for a nominal price which means a low price and therefore I picked up the point that they would be selling at a loss.

That idea just ain't gonna run
 

NorthernSpirit

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That's an employee co-operative (as distinct from a members' one), it doesn't have to be a social enterprise, it can be pure for-profit. There are a few about - the Edinburgh Bicycle Cooperative is one, and the John Lewis Partnership sort of is on a similar model.

Waitrose & Partners is another. This is what Arriva should do but breaks itself apart to allow the employees to manage a reasonable sized operation (one employee co-op to one depot). Its worth a thought.

No way could an employee co-operative work for a business as large and potentially risky as Arriva, especially the rail operations

This is where Arriva breaks itself apart into smaller operating units, as mentioned above one co-op to one depot - more manageable. Joint routes would need to have some sort of joint agreement to who runs what and when.

So your answer would be for the 60,000+ employees of Arriva to club together to buy the company and then sell it. In your original suggestion you said the small shareholders would sell for a nominal price which means a low price and therefore I picked up the point that they would be selling at a loss.

That idea just ain't gonna run

If it'll keep them in a job, its an option to explore - but if some of the 60,000+ employees wish to make some money out of Arriva before jumping ship to another operator its up to them. An employee owned co-op may just boost staff morale in those operations, both bus and rail.

The Arriva operations which are worked out of outstations such as Selby, Heckmondwike and the former Horsham Arriva operation (as for the latter it is a shame that it was sold in 2010 to Go Ahead's Metrobus) would have been ideal for the small shareholders to get their hands on a small slice of Arriva. The small shareholders could then later on sell their share on.
 

Robertj21a

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Waitrose & Partners is another. This is what Arriva should do but breaks itself apart to allow the employees to manage a reasonable sized operation (one employee co-op to one depot). Its worth a thought.



This is where Arriva breaks itself apart into smaller operating units, as mentioned above one co-op to one depot - more manageable. Joint routes would need to have some sort of joint agreement to who runs what and when.



If it'll keep them in a job, its an option to explore - but if some of the 60,000+ employees wish to make some money out of Arriva before jumping ship to another operator its up to them. An employee owned co-op may just boost staff morale in those operations, both bus and rail.

The Arriva operations which are worked out of outstations such as Selby, Heckmondwike and the former Horsham Arriva operation (as for the latter it is a shame that it was sold in 2010 to Go Ahead's Metrobus) would have been ideal for the small shareholders to get their hands on a small slice of Arriva. The small shareholders could then later on sell their share on.


You make it sound as if there's big money to be made from bus operation. As far as I'm aware that's far from guaranteed and places like Selby and Horsham are certainly unlikely to be big money spinners.
 

overthewater

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Now Rotala is eyeing up parts: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...16J24w6pgN0qyi1J4CjR4gvY7FEx_mmqt8J1OhPDwJYM8

SMALL CAP IDEAS: Ambitious bus group Rotala looks ready as the market heads for a shake-up
By PHILIP WHITEROW, PROACTIVE INVESTORS, FOR THISISMONEY.CO.UK

PUBLISHED: 13:50, 15 April 2019 | UPDATED: 13:50, 15 April 2019

Big changes are underway in the UK's bus market and that can play nicely into the hands of bus group Rotala.

German transport giant Deutsche Bahn is reportedly keen to sell its Arriva business, which as well as running the Northern Rail franchise is also the UK's largest bus operator.

Arriva is too big for Rotala but if its German owner decides to sell the bus operation piece-meal the West Midland-based group would be very interested in some of the parts, says Simon Dunn, chief executive.

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Time to alight? German transport giant Deutsche Bahn is reportedly keen to sell its Arriva business

Rotala currently has less than 1 per cent of a UK bus market dominated by five large players – Arriva, Stagecoach, FirstGroup, Go-Ahead and National Express.

That quintet account for 70 per cent of the market and realistically the best way for Rotala to increase its size is to acquire smaller rivals but if Arriva does shed routes that presents interesting options, Dunn says.

Part sales is what happened in previous disposals of bus operations of size, says Dunn.

'If Deutsche Bahn breaks ups Arriva's bus operation into pieces that's where we see an opportunity,' he added.

Rotala is the second largest operator in the West Midlands behind National Express and has market leading positions in Redditch and Kidderminster.
In the Greater Manchester area the company holds fourth position but is desperate to build market presence and here, too, there is seemingly an opportunity.

FirstGroup recently sold one of its three depots in Manchester and its plans for the other two are uncertain.

Reports in February were that FirstGroup is considering a cut-price sale of its entire North-West operation with each of its depots to be sold to different operators.

That would fit well with Rotala's ambitions and management is very aware that the business has to get larger.

'We need to branch out from where we are substantially to grow the business'.

In-fill operations between Birmingham and Manchester are one option but Dunn says he is agnostic about where the business expands.

'We'll look at anything of any size if it is in the right markets. Any major cities and growth opportunities – we're interested.'

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Rotala currently has less than 1 per cent of a UK bus market dominated by five large players – Arriva, Stagecoach, FirstGroup, Go-Ahead and National Express

That includes London and the South-East, where the company's presence currently is largely contract services such as transporting aircrew and passengers from car parks to terminals at Heathrow.

Changes to the market introduced by the 2017 Bus Services Act have also opened ways to expand, believes Dunn.

The Act gave any town with an elected mayor the option of introducing a franchised bus market, such as the one TFL runs in London where it sets, fares, frequency and routes.

In other areas, the transport authority can adopt an alliance or partnership structure where operators set the routes, prices etc and there is route branding and shared ticketing.

The West Midlands bus authority (TfWM) has started to go down this alliance route while Greater Manchester (TfGM) is running a feasibility study looking at franchising.

Rotala has already started to run partnerships in Birmingham with dominant operator National Express while packages for smaller operators that will see them gain a decent share of the market are expected to be a feature of the TfGM study.

Dunn says the company has the firepower and experience to do deals.

Since 2016, it has made 16 acquisitions ranging in size from £11million to under £1million though now it has three key brands – Diamond Bus, Preston Bus and Hallmark.

The company also has £10million of acquisition funding available immediately and substantial additional bank capacity if required.
Share issues would add to the war-chest but that would be a lot easier if the share price was higher says Dunn, who feels Rotala is being unfairly penalised by the market for its size despite a solid operating record.

Revenues rose 19 per cent to £62million in 2018, while underlying profits increased by 18 per cent to £4.2million.

The annual dividend went up by 8 per cent, which was the eighth year running the payout has gone up.

Dunn is upbeat over the current year, but the focus will be the changes in the market and how that can give the group the clout it craves.

Rotala won't have the field to itself.

Stagecoach has just been shorn of its rail franchises and is said to be looking at Arriva. Go-Ahead too has been acquiring bus routes.

But they are major players already and if there is a major shake-out it is hard to see Rotala not picking up something substantial and that might just be the kicker the shares need.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This is where Arriva breaks itself apart into smaller operating units, as mentioned above one co-op to one depot - more manageable. Joint routes would need to have some sort of joint agreement to who runs what and when.
If it'll keep them in a job, its an option to explore - but if some of the 60,000+ employees wish to make some money out of Arriva before jumping ship to another operator its up to them. An employee owned co-op may just boost staff morale in those operations, both bus and rail.
The Arriva operations which are worked out of outstations such as Selby, Heckmondwike and the former Horsham Arriva operation (as for the latter it is a shame that it was sold in 2010 to Go Ahead's Metrobus) would have been ideal for the small shareholders to get their hands on a small slice of Arriva. The small shareholders could then later on sell their share on.

You're forgetting Arriva is a thriving cross-European operation owned in Germany.
They are selling it as a going concern to raise cash.
It is not a fire sale where the various parts are in imminent danger of liquidation, or like an airline which is running out of cash.
The operational management in Sunderland know what they are doing, in 14 countries.
The whole point of the company is to deliver transport services to a business model that works across borders.
It will be a market-driven sale, and the bidding interest, from all parts of Europe and possibly further afield, is likely to be high.
I should think DB will favour bids for the entire operation.
 

Fawkes Cat

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They are selling it as a going concern to raise cash.

This is why any suggestions that start 'completely reorganize the business and then...' aren't viable. DB want their money sooner rather than later so I don't see them entertaining some sort of restructure before the sale.

As with any business, I can imagine a management buyout, and that might even mean opportunities for all staff to buy shares - but (a) as far as I can tell, the typical management buyout model is for management and staff to take (say) 20% of the shares with the rest being bought by venture capitalists who have promised to support the management team, and (b) if the buyout leads to a successful business, then typically the venture capitalists and managers sell their interests on at a profit: if the buyout doesn't lead to a successful business, the venture capitalists sack the management and sell the business on to minimise their losses.

Unless there's a very rich philanthropist out there willing to give DB their money now, and then reorganize the business for the workers, an employee co-op ain't gonna happen.
 

eral1996

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I'm new to this forum ☺, I'm a Bus & Train enthusiast in London.

Could someone please provide me with more information on the latest with the Arriva sale. Thanks

I have some questions for the London service on Arriva:

Whoever buys Arriva from DB does Arriva London continue exactly the same as with the brand and fleet?

I heard gossip that Stagecoach wanted to buy the company including London, is this true and would then the company be combined with the current Stagecoach garages in London?

Thanks
 

Killingworth

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I think it's too early to do more than speculate, see this report from NASDAQ out of Reuters last week; https://www.nasdaq.com/article/deutsche-bahn-favours-sale-of-arriva-to-cut-debt-document-shows-20190417-00183


It may be many months before a deal is put together. It may be sold in one transaction, or split into several transactions. A consortium could buy it and slowly carve it up and sell on. It's totally up to the new owner/s whether they continue the entire business or split it down even further.

The branding and liveries will come a long way down the list of priorities at this early stage. Driving the maximum value from the assets to reduce DB's debt is the No 1 aim just now. Many options will be considered to achieve that goal.

As far as London is concerned the same buses will be running the same routes in the same colours operated by the same drivers from the same garages for quite some time, whatever happens. What is consolidated with what will depend on who buys what and how much they feel it's worth retaining. Whether the sale of any local operations might be challenged on competition grounds will remain speculation until more is known in the public arena.
 

eral1996

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I think it's too early to do more than speculate, see this report from NASDAQ out of Reuters last week; https://www.nasdaq.com/article/deutsche-bahn-favours-sale-of-arriva-to-cut-debt-document-shows-20190417-00183

It may be many months before a deal is put together. It may be sold in one transaction, or split into several transactions. A consortium could buy it and slowly carve it up and sell on. It's totally up to the new owner/s whether they continue the entire business or split it down even further.

The branding and liveries will come a long way down the list of priorities at this early stage. Driving the maximum value from the assets to reduce DB's debt is the No 1 aim just now. Many options will be considered to achieve that goal.

As far as London is concerned the same buses will be running the same routes in the same colours operated by the same drivers from the same garages for quite some time, whatever happens. What is consolidated with what will depend on who buys what and how much they feel it's worth retaining. Whether the sale of any local operations might be challenged on competition grounds will remain speculation until more is known in the public arena.

Thanks for your reply. I was unsure about the future of London operations as fellow enthusiasts are saying that Arriva is leaving etc but the thing is that they have just won 2 new routes and retained their work.
 

Killingworth

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Of course the current management could accept a good offer for any part of the business at any time. That's the way business works if the consideration offered is right.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Thanks for your reply. I was unsure about the future of London operations as fellow enthusiasts are saying that Arriva is leaving etc but the thing is that they have just won 2 new routes and retained their work.

Arriva is run from Sunderland by a British management team.
It's unlikely that will be changed, at least in the short term.
TfL owns the services in London and will make sure by contracts that there is continuity of service, however the sale goes.
 

DavidGrain

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The present situation is that DB wants to sell Arriva asap as they are in imminent danger of breaching their borrowing limits. This implies that DB will sell the whole Arriva operation as one lot. Arriva is a British company HQ in Sunderland so the British management will remain in place for the time being until the new owner decides what to do with the group.

We have been asked by the moderators on this forum not to speculate on what bits of Arriva might go where. However all Arriva's contracts and licences are held by separate subsidiary companies and the new owner might chose to sell off bits but until that happens all buses and trains in all the countries in which Arriva operates will continue as they are a present. Now it is possible that the competition regulators in the different countries might insist on some breaking up of the Arriva contracts if the group is bought by another transport company but we shall just have to wait and see.

In the meanwhile it is business as usual for all the Arriva operations.
 

317 forever

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A potential dark horse bidder for Arriva could be Comfort DelGro. They are one of the largest bus and rail operators in the world but, apart from Metroline buses in north London, have no overlap with Arriva.

So an answer could be for Comfort DelGro to buy Arriva from Deutsche Bahn then divest Arriva garages in north London to another company, such as RATP or even National Express or Transdev if they are willing to return to London bus tendering.
 
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