Arriva/Northern Spirit and First North Western routes circa 1999 - 2003?

[mspljd1990]

Bit of a random one, but does anyone have a list of the routes operated by Arriva Trains Northern and First North Western around those years? In particular, the ones around Manchester and Leeds?

Also if the rolling stock used was included, that would be a great help.

I imagine most of it would probably be similar to how it is now, but I can imagine rolling stock has changed. Also Leeds to Huddersfield via Bradford, Halifax and Brighouse is probably a recent one.

Cheers!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The only FNW services into West Yorkshire were the Manchester Victoria to Wakefield Westgate services, essentially the Huddersfield stopper and the Wakey service joined together (which had been done under BR in the early 1990s and was carried over at Privatisation). Rolling stock on the route was usually a 142 or a 150, but you did get the occasional 156 and even one of the 158s which had been given first-class sections for the short-lived Rochdale to Euston services. There were also a couple of times that a 101 ran it but this was very rare as IIRC not many staff signed both the route and the traction.
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A noteable change since Northern was Leeds losing the 156s which were fixtures on Leeds Carlisle services under MTL/Arriva.

Brighouse reopened in 2000. Previous Halifax terminators were extended to form the service and there's always been the 10 minute wait at Halifax due to allowances made for the stations at Low Moor and Elland.

 

[30907]

Leeds-Brighouse-Hebden Bridge started as one train each way per day and only later became hourly. The whole Calder Valley timetable has recently been recast, of course.

Leeds-Barnsley-Sheffield was just the hourly stopper via Castleford, half hourly south of Wakefield IIRC.

 

[northwichcat]

The only FNW services into West Yorkshire were the Manchester Victoria to Wakefield Westgate services, essentially the Huddersfield stopper and the Wakey service joined together (which had been done under BR in the early 1990s and was carried over at Privatisation). Rolling stock on the route was usually a 142 or a 150, but you did get the occasional 156 and even one of the 158s which had been given first-class sections for the short-lived Rochdale to Euston services. There were also a couple of times that a 101 ran it but this was very rare as IIRC not many staff signed both the route and the traction.

Yes. It changed in autumn 2004 when Huddersfield-Wakefield was transferred to ATN and tagged on to the Selby-Leeds-Halifax-Huddersfield service, usually operated by a 144. I don't think there were any booked class 156 or 158 services on Victoria-Wakefield services under FNW, they were all supposed to be 142s and 150s.

I remember in the first month of the Northern franchise starting there was a Merseytravel 142 on the Penistone Line. ATN had been running a Huddersfield-Sheffield-Lincoln through service using 156s.

Over in the North West Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere/Blackpool and Manchester/Birmingham to North Wales were FNW routes until 2003.

In the early 00s my local line of Manchester to Chester via Altrincham had booked 142, 150, 158 and 175 workings. In 2004 FNW loaned 2 x 158s to TPE and the line got a couple of class 31 hauled mk2 sets as well. The 175 working was a morning peak Chester-Altrincham-Piccadilly service which went to platform 14 at Piccadilly and turned in to a Piccadilly-Warrington-Llandudno service. There was also a 150 which did a slightly earlier Chester-Warrington-Piccadilly service going in to platform 13 and then working Piccadilly-Altrincham-Chester. The FNW timetable had footnotes explaining that passengers to/from Oxford Road could remain on the same train. The mk2 sets did a morning working from St-Annes-on-Sea to Greenbank! and an afternoon one from Chester to Stockport to Blackpool North - it didn't stop at stations like Plumley, Mobberley and Ashley.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Bit of a random one, but does anyone have a list of the routes operated by Arriva Trains Northern and First North Western around those years? In particular, the ones around Manchester and Leeds?

Pretty much the same as what Northern run now, with the recent franchise changes. The north western stuff, and Chester and North Wales, was FNW and the north eastern stuff was ATN.

There wasn't much crossover. FNW ran the Manchester-Huddersfield-Wakefield stopper and ATN ran Leeds-Bradford-Manchester/Preston-Blackpool. For a while ATN also ran through to Liverpool Lime Street via Chat Moss. The only other crossovers were the Hope Valley (FNW stopper, ATN and Central Trains doing the fasts), the Dalesrail trains over the S&C (FNW) and ATN ran one train a day from Newcastle to Whitehaven.

The eastern half of TPE was ATN, using 158 and the odd 156. Manchester-Preston-Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere was FNW, using 156s then 175s. The expresses Manchester to Scotland were Virgin Cross Country, a combination of 158s and MkII loco-hauled stock and then Voyagers.

 

[northwichcat]

The eastern half of TPE was ATN, using 158 and the odd 156. Manchester-Preston-Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere was FNW, using 156s then 175s. The expresses Manchester to Scotland were Virgin Cross Country, a combination of 158s and MkII loco-hauled stock and then Voyagers.

ATN did use the TPE brand name though and had a special TPE livery, with the Blackpool-Yorkshire service also being treated as a TPE service. Although, the Blackpool and Hull services didn't guarantee FC accommodation would be available to allow for 156s being used.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the Blackpool and Hull services didn't guarantee FC accommodation would be available to allow for 156s being used.

That was mostly so they could use the 10 Metro 158s, which were standard class only. Although, as you say, 155s were common enough to Blackpool and 156s were common enough to Hull. But in times of shortage anything could rock up on TPE services, I once had the pleasure of a 3-car 144 up the ECML to Newcastle.

 

[Flying Claret]

That was mostly so they could use the 10 Metro 158s, which were standard class only. Although, as you say, 155s were common enough to Blackpool and 156s were common enough to Hull. But in times of shortage anything could rock up on TPE services, I once had the pleasure of a 3-car 144 up the ECML to Newcastle.

I could be wrong but did there used to be a 2nd tph from Blackpoo to Yorkshire? I think it went via Dewsbury. I seem to remember catching it from Preston uni back to accy. Why was it introduced and more importantly why didn't it last? Do people think that it could be a viable service again?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I could be wrong but did there used to be a 2nd tph from Blackpoo to Yorkshire? I think it went via Dewsbury.

It depends how long ago you're talking.

Before 1985, when the Copy Pit route re-opened to passenger traffic, there might have been a Leeds-Blackpool train via Manchester. I'm too young to know, and I wasn't in the country

There wasn't one that way under ATN/Northern Spirit, although for a while engineering works between Bradford and Leeds (whilst they rebuilt the approach to Interchange) meant they sent the through trains that way, reversing in Halifax.

 

[anti-pacer]

I could be wrong but did there used to be a 2nd tph from Blackpoo to Yorkshire? I think it went via Dewsbury. I seem to remember catching it from Preston uni back to accy. Why was it introduced and more importantly why didn't it last? Do people think that it could be a viable service again?

I don't recall this and between 1986 and 1988 I travelled from Colne to Blackburn by train to school. All I remember back then was the 1tph Colne-Preston (and possibly on to Blackpool South) stopped, and joining the line at Rose Grove was the Yorkshire-Lancashire service, which I think wasn't even 1tph back then.

Does anybody know what service ran in them days across the Pennines and how frequent? Did it run through to Blackpool and if so, where from?

 

[Flying Claret]

It depends how long ago you're talking.

Before 1985, when the Copy Pit route re-opened to passenger traffic, there might have been a Leeds-Blackpool train via Manchester. I'm too young to know, and I wasn't in the country

There wasn't one that way under ATN/Northern Spirit, although for a while engineering works between Bradford and Leeds (whilst they rebuilt the approach to Interchange) meant they sent the through trains that way, reversing in Halifax.

Sorry I should have been clearer. I'm talking about 1999-2000 ish.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Sorry I should have been clearer. I'm talking about 1999-2000 ish.

Between 1999 and 2002 Leeds station was being rebuilt, and there were a lot of diversions and closures at that time because of the engineering works. Interchange-Leeds was closed for a good while, 1tph running Bradford-Manchester with everything else running via Brighouse and reversing in Halifax. That's probably what you remember.
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Does anybody know what service ran in them days across the Pennines and how frequent? Did it run through to Blackpool and if so, where from?

I don't think anything went over Copy Pit after it was closed to passenger traffic in the 60s, though there might have been the odd summer special. After Copy Pit reopened in 1985 it was a handful of trains a day, only as far as Preston, though by the late 80s it was up to hourly, usually run with a 155.

 

[Shrimper]

Not Manchester, but ATN did also run the Leeds-Lancaster-Morecambe services which brought them into FNW territory

 

[anti-pacer]

Between 1999 and 2002 Leeds station was being rebuilt, and there were a lot of diversions and closures at that time because of the engineering works. Interchange-Leeds was closed for a good while, 1tph running Bradford-Manchester with everything else running via Brighouse and reversing in Halifax. That's probably what you remember.
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I don't think anything went over Copy Pit after it was closed to passenger traffic in the 60s, though there might have been the odd summer special. After Copy Pit reopened in 1985 it was a handful of trains a day, only as far as Preston, though by the late 80s it was up to hourly, usually run with a 155.

I seem to remember travelling that route from Rose Grove to Bradford on an old slam door DMU, and it would have been about 1985/6.

 

[Bevan Price]

1982 timetable showed summer only services via Copy Pit.
Castleford & Leeds to Blackpool North & return. (daily)
Leeds to Blackpool North & return (SO)

Sheffield to Blackpool North & return via Wakefield. (SO). For these, there was no booked stop between Wakefield Kirkgate & Blackpool North westbound; the return also called at Sowerby Bridge - this working was loco hauled..

Sundays. Hull - Leeds - Blackpool North & Leeds - Blackpool North in the morning, each returning in late afternoon / early evening.
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1986 timetable shows a train approximately every 2 hours** between Leeds & Preston, with some extended to/from Blackpool North. (** - modified at peak hours). One eastbound service was extended from Leeds to Hull.

Sunday service was one (two in summer) morning service towards Blackpool , returning in late afternoon / early evening.
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1992 timetable. Mostly hourly,between Leeds & Blackpool North, but with a few 2 hour gaps. Also a few peak hour services called at additional stations between Preston & Blackburn. Mostly every 2 hours on Sundays.

 

[thenorthern]

In 2002-3 time First North Western routes into Manchester were heavily disrupted with changes on the West Coast Mainline because of Engineering works to fit the TASS for the pendolinos. I do have a digital copy of the old timetables somewhere and I will try and find them out.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

1982 timetable showed summer only services via Copy Pit.
Castleford & Leeds to Blackpool North & return. (daily)
Leeds to Blackpool North & return (SO)

Sheffield to Blackpool North & return via Wakefield. (SO). For these, there was no booked stop between Wakefield Kirkgate & Blackpool North westbound; the return also called at Sowerby Bridge - this working was loco hauled..

Sundays. Hull - Leeds - Blackpool North & Leeds - Blackpool North in the morning, each returning in late afternoon / early evening.
----------------------------------------------------------------

1986 timetable shows a train approximately every 2 hours** between Leeds & Preston, with some extended to/from Blackpool North. (** - modified at peak hours). One eastbound service was extended from Leeds to Hull.

Sunday service was one (two in summer) morning service towards Blackpool , returning in late afternoon / early evening.
----------------------------------------------------------------

1992 timetable. Mostly hourly,between Leeds & Blackpool North, but with a few 2 hour gaps. Also a few peak hour services called at additional stations between Preston & Blackburn. Mostly every 2 hours on Sundays.

Bevan, assuming you can look it up in your old timetables, can you see if there were through trains from Hull to Liverpool in 1992?

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I remember in ATN days that it was entirely possible for a 158 to spend its days doing nothing but the Leeds - Selby shuttle or the Selby - York shuttle.