Arriva Rail North DOO

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Andrew32, 27 Oct 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. woodmally

    woodmally Member

    Messages:
    210
    Joined:
    16 Mar 2018
    Yes exactly. Northern it seems have been forced to negotiate but what is the point. Northern can't back down. If they could why did they let this dispute go in for so long.
     
  2. scrapy

    scrapy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,252
    Joined:
    15 Dec 2008
    I'm told the delay between the talks taking place earlier in the week and the strike being suspended is due to Northern consulting the DFT. I'm wondering if there has been talk of a change to the franchise agreement allowing Northern more flexibility in talks.
     
  3. Dave1987

    Dave1987 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,387
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2012
    Not surprising. Government is in bedlam currently and the DFT under Grayling is in complete disarray. Grayling has burnt his bridges with staff at the precise time he needs them to assist in the complete mess his department has created. Amazing how what comes around goes around!
     
  4. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    46,991
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Well, it is all the DfT's doing. No TOC has, so far as I can recall, ever unilaterally attempted to implement DOO or any variant thereof.
     
  5. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

    Messages:
    3,095
    Joined:
    26 Aug 2012
    London Overground, C2C and Southeastern Javelin’s all done successfully plus SWT weren’t far off launching it but backed down just before, in 1998!
     
    Last edited: 13 Jul 2018
  6. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,457
    Joined:
    25 Aug 2014
    There is room for compromise on the role of the second person. For instance both sides could claim victory if the agreement is compulsory second safety critical person on all trains, driver opening doors at every station and closing at simpler stations, enabling the conductor to spend more time on customer services. In reality that would be an RMT win but the media focus on doors means it look ok for the government.
     
  7. Dentonian

    Dentonian Established Member

    Messages:
    1,194
    Joined:
    4 Dec 2017
    IS this Strike suspended or not? Having been dumped at Romiley Station for 35 minutes tonight, I heard the reminder that there IS a Strike on the tannoy a number of times, backed up by messages on the RTI monitors. Also, there is nothing in the Media about it being called off. Mind you there is nothing in the local media about the major disruption I and many others endured. OK, it might have been on Granada Reports but I missed that......as I was stuck on a Station five miles from my home Station!
     
  8. Andrew32

    Andrew32 Member

    Messages:
    492
    Joined:
    18 Jul 2013
    Definitely suspended mate, talks start next week all being well.

     
  9. Geeves

    Geeves Member

    Messages:
    1,019
    Joined:
    6 Jan 2009
    Location:
    Rochdale
    Received at 19:49

    Positive RMT talks and suspension of industrial action


    Dear Colleague,

    I’m pleased to share with you the news that RMT has agreed to suspend industrial action, including their planned strike on Saturday 21 July, to allow talks between Northern and RMT to take place over the coming weeks. This is good news for colleagues and for our customers.

    This suspension of action follows a meeting on Tuesday between myself, representatives from Northern, and Mick Cash, RMT General Secretary, and other RMT representatives. During the meeting we discussed RMT’s ongoing dispute about the role of the guard and introduction of Driver Controlled Operation (DCO).


    I am pleased that the talks that were both positive and constructive. Following the meeting I wrote to RMT to confirm that Arriva Rail North (ARN) is proposing to reconvene talks about its franchise commitments regarding driver controlled trains.

    I went on to say that it is further proposed to set up a joint working party of ARN and RMT representatives. The working party will consider a range of options on the deployment of on-board staff, including an option of retaining a second safety critical person on-board all Northern trains.

    The joint working party will meet as required, but shall report back to the steering group within four weeks, with myself and Mick Cash jointly chairing this group as respective leaders of both organisations.

    We expect these talks to start as early as next week and I am hopeful of progress. I will update you further at the appropriate time.

    Kind regards,


    David Brown
    Managing Director


    Make of that what you will.
     
  10. woodmally

    woodmally Member

    Messages:
    210
    Joined:
    16 Mar 2018
    This makes me so angry. Pleased we have a solution in sight but angry its taken this long. I was always under the impression that DOO was part of the franchise and there would be no resolution. So how the heck have Northern managed to square this circle now? And if it is solvable why the heck has it taken this long to resolve.
     
  11. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

    Messages:
    30,637
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    The way I read that is they still plan to have DCO trains but will look at an option where the second member of staff is trained to the same standard as guards and to look at cancelling services if the second member of staff is unavailable. That'll still meet the franchise requirement for DCO but will affect the franchise's finances meaning it'll still need DfT approval.
     
  12. danbarnstall

    danbarnstall Member

    Messages:
    99
    Joined:
    1 Apr 2014
    Grayling is already under immense pressure due to the timetabling fiasco (Amongst other things). The battle to remove Guards was started in calmer waters, maybe the Government have decided it’s a battle they could do without at the minute. Rename the role but dont water it down like what happened on Southern. Both sides can claim a victory of sorts.
     
  13. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

    Messages:
    9,325
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2010
    Its the same talks ACAS has been promoting for a year, both sides meeting without preconditions and willing to consider each others position, except RMT are breaking the spirit of the talks by still prejudging the outcome and maintaining their red line.
     
  14. Moonshot

    Moonshot Established Member

    Messages:
    3,168
    Joined:
    10 Nov 2013
    So if the offer is all staff keep there jobs on the same terms and conditions as they do now, but the role evolves into a far more customer focused position, do you think RMT membership should accept that?
     
  15. jfollows

    jfollows Member

    Messages:
    380
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Wilmslow
    Good news.

    As a passenger, this is the solution I want to see. It has been discussed at length here and elsewhere, but I believe that the moment that a second staff member is no longer obligatory, staffing levels will be cut and trains operated without a second member of staff will become increasingly common. "Wouldn't customers rather a train ran with only one member of staff rather than not at all?" will be the mantra. Well, "no", actually. So if this is the solution that keeps everyone happy, including me, that's excellent. Let's hope and see.
     
  16. Overspeed110

    Overspeed110 On Moderation

    Messages:
    105
    Joined:
    16 Nov 2017
    Only if there is a commitment by Northern to keep things as they are staffing wise, that is a safety critical second person on every train, but possibly transferring door opening control to the driver where possible.
     
  17. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

    Messages:
    3,095
    Joined:
    26 Aug 2012
    I don’t think that’s a realistic outcome, what’s more likley is a second person with specific training on most or all trains with drivers controlling the doors
     
    Last edited: 14 Jul 2018
  18. Overspeed110

    Overspeed110 On Moderation

    Messages:
    105
    Joined:
    16 Nov 2017
    Regardless of who does what with door control, if I was a northern guard the only acceptable outcome would be for a guarantee of a second safety critical person on every train, or that train does not run.
    Incidentally, the franchise allows Northern to have a second person on every train. It is Northern who have forced these strikes by opting to go down the line of DOO, purely for the reasons of saving money, nothing else.
     
  19. Jack Hay

    Jack Hay Member

    Messages:
    56
    Joined:
    18 Aug 2016
    It's easy to say "I think that if the second member of staff is not available then the train does not run" if you use a line with frequent service. I use a line where the service is infrequent. The gap between trains is usually an hour and sometimes more. Also the line is a long way from any Northern signing-on point so they often fail to get both crew members in the right place at the right time and cancellations are common. This is what makes me angry. Moreover, when there is a second member of staff he/she often spends the entire journey in the back cab, so not much safety-critical or indeed any work being done there frankly.
     
  20. Wombat

    Wombat Member

    Messages:
    283
    Joined:
    12 Jul 2013
    Then you and I differ on that point; I would much prefer to see the train run. It would be interesting if one of the industry bodies involved surveyed passengers on that point, as I suspect that I'd be in a large majority.
     
  21. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

    Messages:
    6,048
    Joined:
    22 Sep 2013

    Personally, I see little to concern most people about the Southern OBS solution.
     
  22. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

    Messages:
    9,325
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2010
    So would you like to see the alleged Merseyrail compromise where they destaff their (almost) entirely manned station network making hundreds of station workers redundant just to keep a second member on board no longer required to perform any duties?
     
  23. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

    Messages:
    30,637
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    Agree on that point. While I think most would prefer 2 members of staff on board to 1. Do passengers really want to experience scenarios like
    1. Spending an hour on a freezing platform
    2. Being squashed on a train like sardines due to the previous service being cancelled, especially in hot weather.
    3. Spending an hour at an unstaffed station where undesirable people are hanging around
    4. Arriving very late
    5. Missing the last bus home from the station
    due to a train being cancelled instead of catching a train with just one member of staff on board
     
  24. PR1Berske

    PR1Berske On Moderation

    Messages:
    2,808
    Joined:
    27 Jul 2010
    Location:
    Preston
    Imagine being a lone woman on a platform because Northern had to cancel a train to satisfy union regulations. There has to be a better way out of this mess.
     
  25. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

    Messages:
    6,336
    Joined:
    13 Dec 2013
    Location:
    UK
    Imagine being a lone woman on a train because Northern decided to cut staff and save a few pennies. There has to be a better way out of this mess.
     
  26. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

    Messages:
    30,637
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    The situation PR1Berske describes happens already. What's the solution? Guards being forced to do overtime if a colleague phones in sick so that no services are ever cancelled due to guard shortages? I don't think the RMT will sign up to that.

    Most journeys on Northern services are short, surely 15 minutes on a train with just a driver on board is much safer for a lone woman than 60 minutes on a platform followed by 15 minutes on a train with a guard who she might not even see!
     
  27. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

    Messages:
    6,336
    Joined:
    13 Dec 2013
    Location:
    UK
    And women are also being attacked and raped on trains. Unfortunately true and I was shocked when I first heard of it. I've had people assaulted, robbed, abused and god knows what else on my trains. I also witnessed a child abduction.

    We can all play the 'what if' game. It serves little purpose than to highlight our own bias as we create a specific scenario to shoehorn into.

    The problem is that there is NO solution. Whichever method of working is in place there will always be a danger and risk to someone. Whether that's a disabled person being over-carried, vulnerable people left to fend for themselves or the detritus of human behavior, it will not be prevented.
     
  28. Andrew32

    Andrew32 Member

    Messages:
    492
    Joined:
    18 Jul 2013
    Whilst I am happy that progress seems to have been made in regards to this dispute I find it rather confusing why it's acceptable to talk without preconditions now but it wasn't last July when exactly the same thing was offered, unless the company have now been given the flexibility they didn't have last year possibly?

    A second safety critical person onboard every service and drivers open and close doors was offered last July in talks, this was rejected after a two hour break while phone calls were made (presumably to the DFT), no was the eventual answer given because it meant that the company had to guarentee a second safety critical person on every train.

    Now the same discussions take place on Tuesday and after 48hrs the reply is we can have talks with the option of guaranteeing a second person on every train, so the DFT must have altered the franchise specification like they have with the deferment of the December timetable changes.

    Guard open and close on no DCO services obviously and drivers open and guards close on DCO services.

    Guarentee of a person to be rostered for every service with a list of extreme circumstances where the service could run a short distance until it was met with another saftey critical guard who could be assisting on another service or doing revenue protection duties on another service.

    Service cannot run if it is going to run the full distance DCO .

    Either way both sides are not going to get what they want entirely and even if the RMT and ARN agree on door operation procedures what happens if Aslef members don't what any door control responsibilities?

    Not expecting everyone to agree with this post and would appreciate any other views anyone has on a way forward.
     
    Last edited: 14 Jul 2018
  29. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

    Messages:
    4,611
    Joined:
    18 Jun 2015
    Perhaps the suspicions voiced earlier in the thread that ASLEF’s Northern branches would be a lot less willing to accept DOO than was the case down south were shared by the DfT. in which case they may have moved their position to avoid a long, unpopular and bloody battle.

    It will no doubt be easier to negotiate with ASLEF re door control from a the starting position of having a fully trained guard on board virtually all services.

    Definitely a bigger win for the RMT than for the DfT albeit still a compromise in not retraining the status quo.

    It will be interesting to see how willing aslef are to embrace driver open and close - perhaps the solution that will eventually be reached will be driver open guard close?
     
    Last edited: 14 Jul 2018
  30. jfollows

    jfollows Member

    Messages:
    380
    Joined:
    26 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Wilmslow
    I don't argue against the people who disagree with me, they are quite right. I don't have to commute to work and have a threat hanging over me if I don't turn up to work on time, for example. Actually, throughout my working life I never had to rely on commuting by train to work, so that probably means that I have an unrealistically rosy view of what travelling by train is!

    But Northern (or any other rail company) can run 100% of its services with 2 members of staff if it wants to.

    if it's allowed to get away with the "oops, sorry, but it's better to have a train with one member of staff than no train at all" approach then it means that for every 100 rostered staff it has to employ 105 staff (I'm making up numbers) because trains don't drive themselves yet.

    If it's not allowed to get away with it then it has to employ 110 staff for every 100 rostered, which means that it's paying for more people to sit idle on "spare" turns when everyone booked turns up. That's a problem that it has to deal with. If it wants to be constructive it can come up with better ideas of what these "spare" staff can do instead of reading the paper in the mess room, or whatever. (For example, wouldn't it be nice if they could use their local knowledge as input to the timetable planning process?)

    It's completely in the power of the train operating company,

    Ultimately if employing 5% more people feeds through into increased fares but guarantees that all trains run and have two staff members on them, then it's a price I'm happy to pay. And some people won't be prepared to do so, that's fair enough.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page