Arriva Rail North DOO

[6Gman]

Clearly you are not in a better position than me to know what is going on, because I am a guard right in the thick of this.

It needs a second ballot, and one of the reasons behind that is there has been a significant increase in guard numbers over the last 18 months who have not had a vote.

There are significant numbers of my colleagues who can see right through this dispute , and are losing money for no good reason. Nobody is being made redundant, but the role needs to evolve into a far more customer savvy one.

It's also worth pointing out that so far , each conductor has recieved 2 cheques of £200 each from the RMT. Some of you may consider that a bribe.

Some of us may consider it as Strike Pay.

 

[6Gman]

A conductor can hold off releasing the doors if the driver has stopped short, or on driver release, send 2-2 on the bell to stop him.
A conductor has a clear view of all of the platform-train interface, not just the three feet surrounding the door, so can anticipate and react to issues such as rushing passengers.
A conductor is in the train so (in the majority of cases) he won't close the doors whilst there's wheelchair passengers waiting to come off etc.
A conductor doesn't have to secure the cab and walk down the platform and back again when a door starts playing silly buggers, he can just walk down, close and isolate/lock it out of use and dispatch from the next one along.
A conductor provides a second pair of eyes on the platform signal - the chance of two pairs of eyes missing a red signal is less than one.

I concede, some of these could be achieved with the driver working the doors and a safety trained second person in the train. But that isn't being proposed - a second person, of unspecified training, might be in the train or might not.

In addition to all this, in the event of an incident a second member of staff (properly trained) can be crucial.

 

[IanXC]

I still dont know how it can be resolved. Yes the action will eventually stop when DOO gets implemented but the strike action will be a failure. For this very simple reason. The public have no power. The government wont back down over DOO and Northern can't otherwise it would breach contract. Therefore there is nothing to negotiate. Either RMT accept DOO and move on or keep striking till it gets implemented. Or have I missed something.

I think the RMT would refer you to various other cases, principally Greater Anglia.

 

[woodmally]

I think the RMT would refer you to various other cases, principally Greater Anglia.

OK I'm more than willing to accept when I'm wrong but how the heck was it achieved in the Greater Anglia case. When DOO is part of the franchise agreement? And similarly why hasn't it occurred with Northern? What's different.

 

[the sniper]

It is when you consider there are no job losses or salaries reduction planned, and let's not forget that 50% of northern services will still have a traditional guard as part of the franchise agreement. And with the total number of services going up anyway, I don't see what the worry is. When this dispute is finally resolved, a lot of people are going to look back and wonder why all the fuss?

It's also worth pointing out that so far , each conductor has recieved 2 cheques of £200 each from the RMT. Some of you may consider that a bribe.

You must be banking on going driving, Management or you're coming up to retirment, as I can't believe someone in your position/grade could approach this issue so naively on so many fronts. Relying on the 50% stipulation in the current franchise agreement for a start... oi, oi ,oi... But publicly slating your own union on a open forum for giving you 'a bribe', describing what even the most anti-union poster on this forum would recognise as an entirely standard strike payment (and a good payment compared to what people in other unions/industries have recieved in similar situations) is inconceivable, cringeworthy. I just can't take you seriously as a character here anymore. It just shows how completly detached you are.

There's a discussion to be had amongst the grade about how, what and when you conceed, and what you should get back in return for the cost you're going to pay in the long term as a grade. I believe the RMT do understand that at this stage of this dispute in England, the exact status quo can not be maintained for the Guards now, certainly more engaged members understand this too. That you and seemingly some of your colleagues don't even seem to appreciate the consequences of what is at stake right now or what is in play is pretty depressing. When it comes to the end game for your grade, maybe ten years from now, don't go crying to the union then, as the war will already have been fought by then and the fight will have passed you by.

 

[Moonshot]

You must be banking on going driving, Management or you're coming up to retirment, as I can't believe someone in your position/grade could approach this issue so naively on so many fronts. Relying on the 50% stipulation in the current franchise agreement for a start... oi, oi ,oi... But publicly slating your own union on a open forum for giving you 'a bribe', describing what even the most anti-union poster on this forum would recognise as an entirely standard strike payment (and a good payment compared to what people in other unions/industries have recieved in similar situations) is inconceivable, cringeworthy. I just can't take you seriously as a character here anymore. It just shows how completly detached you are.

There's a discussion to be had amongst the grade about how, what and when you conceed, and what you should get back in return for the cost you're going to pay in the long term as a grade. I believe the RMT do understand that at this stage of this dispute in England, the exact status quo can not be maintained for the Guards now, certainly more engaged members understand this too. That you and seemingly some of your colleagues don't even seem to appreciate the consequences of what is at stake right now or what is in play is pretty depressing. When it comes to the end game for your grade, maybe ten years from now, don't go crying to the union then, as the war will already have been fought by then and the fight will have passed you by.

The grade will come to an end , whether you or I like it or not.....just like second man and fireman did etc etc. I will be well retired by the time it does though. That's the reality. So please don't call me naive, because jobs change everywhere.

 

[the sniper]

The grade will come to an end , whether you or I like it or not.....just like second man and fireman did etc etc. I will be well retired by the time it does though. That's the reality. So please don't call me naive, because jobs change everywhere.

Enjoy your retirement, mustn't be far off then. Luckily your predecessors in the grade and the NUR/RMT didn't widely take such an apathetic attitude or you wouldn't have enjoyed the privileges you do in your role today. The Guard grade probably wouldn't have survived for long enough for you to join it in the first place...

 

[Moonshot]

Enjoy your retirement, mustn't be far off then. Luckily your predecessors in the grade and the NUR/RMT didn't widely take such an apathetic attitude or you wouldn't have enjoyed the privileges you do in your role today. The Guard grade probably wouldn't have survived for long enough for you to join it in the first place...

But it has survived, and will continue to do so for the term of this franchise as per t and c. Because 50% of services or mileage or whatever it is will still have someone on the back who has safety critical knowledge. And even that is way off yet. So do you reckon that to put this to bed , the RMT should hold a second ballot in order to guage support? Imo they have nothing to lose by doing this. Bear in mind I'm in a position to see the financial damage this is doing to some of the guards.

 

[Anvil1984]

But it has survived, and will continue to do so for the term of this franchise as per t and c. Because 50% of services or mileage or whatever it is will still have someone on the back who has safety critical knowledge. And even that is way off yet. So do you reckon that to put this to bed , the RMT should hold a second ballot in order to guage support? Imo they have nothing to lose by doing this. Bear in mind I'm in a position to see the financial damage this is doing to some of the guards.

Don’t know where you are getting this “50% of services or mileage will still have someone on the back with safety critical knowledge” from. The franchise documents dictate a MINIMUM of 50% of mileage to be DCO not a maximum, the company could easily attempt to go higher

 

[the sniper]

But it has survived, and will continue to do so for the term of this franchise as per t and c. Because 50% of services or mileage or whatever it is will still have someone on the back who has safety critical knowledge. And even that is way off yet. So do you reckon that to put this to bed , the RMT should hold a second ballot in order to guage support? Imo they have nothing to lose by doing this. Bear in mind I'm in a position to see the financial damage this is doing to some of the guards.

If you are representative of your colleagues, you might as well be given the opportunity to give up, if that is the will of the people. I hope you're not representative. It's unlikely a strategic advantage can be gained by a second ballot if you're going to continue. You're just showing your hand. To concede on the terms currently on offer would seem like a failure to me, particularly given the deals done on Scotrail and more relevantly GA, let alone what might be conceded on SWR and WMT, which are the closest to Northern in terms of the current working arrangements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your a Northern Guard ?
I assume you’ll be one of the “alright jack” crew the way your going on, just wait until the company wants to do away with the 2nd person onboard and you’ve no power to make a stand, or are you one of these “ill just go driving” lot ?

We had a few of those at GWR, screw the rest I’ll be okay.

All the current guards will be OK. There are enough Class 15x operated services, and will be well into the future, that I would expect that a job for all current guards is assured until they no longer want it for whatever reason. The situation isn't like Southern, as Northern have huge amounts of non-DOO stock that is not likely to be feasible to convert and will, Pacers aside, be keeping it all for many years yet.

They might well want to impose a recruitment freeze - but so what? I'm not in favour of unions protecting theoretical future members of staff, just current ones.

 

[Moonshot]

If you are representative of your colleagues, you might as well be given the opportunity to give up, if that is the will of the people. I hope you're not representative. It's unlikely a strategic advantage can be gained by a second ballot if you're going to continue. You're just showing your hand. To concede on the terms currently on offer would seem like a failure to me, particularly given the deals done on Scotrail and more relevantly GA, let alone what might be conceded on SWR and WMT, which are the closest to Northern in terms of the current working arrangements.

I will ask you again, should the RMT hold a second ballot?

 

[Moonshot]

All the current guards will be OK. There are enough Class 15x operated services, and will be well into the future, that I would expect that a job for all current guards is assured until they no longer want it for whatever reason. The situation isn't like Southern, as Northern have huge amounts of non-DOO stock that is not likely to be feasible to convert and will, Pacers aside, be keeping it all for many years yet.

They might well want to impose a recruitment freeze - but so what? I'm not in favour of unions protecting theoretical future members of staff, just current ones.

Spot on

 

[the sniper]

I will ask you again, should the RMT hold a second ballot?

Read what I wrote, I've answered.

 

[Moonshot]

Read what I wrote, I've answered.

No you haven't, so just a simple yes or no to a second ballot?

 

[the sniper]

No you haven't, so just a simple yes or no to a second ballot?

If you need things this black and white, I can understand why you're struggling to appreciate the dispute in which your involved.

If the feelling is that your colleagues wish to give up, then yes, you should have a second ballot, as you have nothing to lose. If the feeling of the majority is that you should continue to hold out for a better deal, it is unlikely, to a greater or lesser extent, to be in your interest to have a second ballot. So it isn't worth having one or opening yourselves to the associated risks that could weaken your position.

Personally, I don't think the RMT should have a second ballot. But that opinion is irrelevant really.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Unfortunately, the ‘operations’ side of many railway companies has spent years telling staff that customer service was a lower priority to safety. This entrenched the view customer service is some vague add-on when there’s nothing safety related to do, if you can be bothered. Looking after customers properly is actually more challenging than knowing rules and reading signals. It would probably be much more useful for customers in reality if all guards had intense training and annual examinations on travel connections, station facilities, tickets, upcoming engineering works, rather than track route knowledge and obsolete rules. Maybe both would be ideal. Doubtless this would be strongly resisted by the RMT and many guards.

The first point is very true. The TOC I am involved with has seemingly little to no interest in any customer service training or ongoing examination at all. I have not had any proper refresher training on tickets or retail things, geography etc in over 10 years. This is despite the fact I spend nearly all my time interacting with the public over such things. If I didn't do lots of self learning or my own research then I would be clueless and not up to date on the many and regular changes, which is why most of my colleagues in the grade in many TOCs are not clued up at all on ticket things. I know many colleagues who just sit in the back doing nothing - and management generally just don't seem to be remotely interested in sorting this, as long as they do the safety things such as doors fine then they don't really seem interested.

The second point about the RMT - I know such things would certainly not receive any resistance from any of the the union reps here, in fact I understand they have been calling for such things.

Don’t know where you are getting this “50% of services or mileage will still have someone on the back with safety critical knowledge” from. The franchise documents dictate a MINIMUM of 50% of mileage to be DCO not a maximum, the company could easily attempt to go higher

Indeed. And informed sources at the time suggested that the redacted figures promised that a good amount more than 50% would be operated in DOO mode with no need for a second member of staff on the train at all. 75% ish rings a bell.

 

[kw12]

No you haven't, so just a simple yes or no to a second ballot?

It was a crazy oversight that the Act introducing the requirment for a reballot after six months did not include a clause applying this requirement to existing strike ballots, with the first reballot required six months after the change of law coming into force. If that had applied then we would have a second reballot last year (and possiby a third ballot this year, depending on the outcome of the second ballot).

 

[Andyh82]

I’m very surprised a single ballot can be used indefinitely. How do the people voting actually know what they are voting for.

One day of action to show the management that they aren’t happy but they’ll probably go with it anyway, is a bit different than a bitter prolonged period of striking every few weeks for the entire length of the franchise.

 

[Overspeed110]

You might want to ask that question to drivers who already drive DOO. Worth pointing out that a SPAD does not end a drivers career. They are rare events in their own right. Driving standards are very high in the UK. And so are guards

You think a spad can't end a drivers career?

 

[Overspeed110]

Humans make mistakes, that is a fact.

Guards giving 2 against a red is rare, however when it has happened, invariably there was a distraction involved. There are safety systems in place to mitigate human error.

There are plenty of places / scenarios where there's no safety systems at all provided.

 

[the sniper]

The first point is very true. The TOC I am involved with has seemingly little to no interest in any customer service training or ongoing examination at all. I have not had any proper refresher training on tickets or retail things, geography etc in over 10 years. This is despite the fact I spend nearly all my time interacting with the public over such things. If I didn't do lots of self learning or my own research then I would be clueless and not up to date on the many and regular changes, which is why most of my colleagues in the grade in many TOCs are not clued up at all on ticket things. I know many colleagues who just sit in the back doing nothing - and management generally just don't seem to be remotely interested in sorting this, as long as they do the safety things such as doors fine then they don't really seem interested.

The second point about the RMT - I know such things would certainly not receive any resistance from any of the the union reps here, in fact I understand they have been calling for such things.

Entirely true. For all we see about the 'laziness' of Guards from people here, if you actually know the culture engrained by management in some TOCs, it's almost incomprehensible that Guards do any tickets at all. You can only wonder whether that is a smart long term play against the Guards or a failure of management.

 

[Overspeed110]

Your a Northern Guard ?
I assume you’ll be one of the “alright jack” crew the way your going on, just wait until the company wants to do away with the 2nd person onboard and you’ve no power to make a stand, or are you one of these “ill just go driving” lot ?

We had a few of those at GWR, screw the rest I’ll be okay.

I've come to the opinion based on Moonshots comments that he / she is not a guard, but someone who has a little inside information ( emphasis on little), who is intent on trying to stir things up.

 

[Overspeed110]

But it has survived, and will continue to do so for the term of this franchise as per t and c. Because 50% of services or mileage or whatever it is will still have someone on the back who has safety critical knowledge. And even that is way off yet. So do you reckon that to put this to bed , the RMT should hold a second ballot in order to guage support? Imo they have nothing to lose by doing this. Bear in mind I'm in a position to see the financial damage this is doing to some of the guards.

There's nothing in the franchise agreement that states 50% of services to be DOO.

I've seen the franchise agreement. There are 3 (redacted) dates by which there are 3 (redacted) levels of DOO which must be implemented. No one knows (apart from Northern and our "government") what those levels are, they could be 50, 60, 80%.

 

[Moonshot]

If you need things this black and white, I can understand why you're struggling to appreciate the dispute in which your involved.

If the feelling is that your colleagues wish to give up, then yes, you should have a second ballot, as you have nothing to lose. If the feeling of the majority is that you should continue to hold out for a better deal, it is unlikely, to a greater or lesser extent, to be in your interest to have a second ballot. So it isn't worth having one or opening yourselves to the associated risks that could weaken your position.

Personally, I don't think the RMT should have a second ballot. But that opinion is irrelevant really.

Your right about that, opinion on here is absolutely and totally irrelevant, be it me , you or anyone else.

 

[CN75]

The first point is very true. The TOC I am involved with has seemingly little to no interest in any customer service training or ongoing examination at all. I have not had any proper refresher training on tickets or retail things, geography etc in over 10 years. This is despite the fact I spend nearly all my time interacting with the public over such things. If I didn't do lots of self learning or my own research then I would be clueless and not up to date on the many and regular changes, which is why most of my colleagues in the grade in many TOCs are not clued up at all on ticket things. I know many colleagues who just sit in the back doing nothing - and management generally just don't seem to be remotely interested in sorting this, as long as they do the safety things such as doors fine then they don't really seem interested.

The second point about the RMT - I know such things would certainly not receive any resistance from any of the the union reps here, in fact I understand they have been calling for such things.

More recently, the RMT might have softened resistance to accepting the guard should be foremost a customer-service job to have a viable future. It’s hard to tell and would be specific to each TOC. A guard on VTWC of course already spends almost all of their time at work doing nothing whatsoever to do with ‘safety’. With the GA deal now signed, the RMT have clearly accepted that the door control argument has now passed. However, the most recent public flyer for the SWR dispute does demonstrate that head office believes playing up customer service elements of the guard’s job is the lowest priority. Ironically, those are the elements that the passengers whose support is needed in their fight actually (in the majority) care most about.

The reason the RMT might resist intensive yearly exams on customer service knowledge (if not the training) is because it would provide a much greater opportunity for performance management on existing guards. Anything that involves things like targets for sales or ticket checks, or extra tests on regulations provides an opportunity to more easily weed out the worst and would not be in the union’s short term interests.

 

[pemma]

Some of us may consider it as Strike Pay.

'Strike pay' is a contradiction in terms, strike payout or strike benefit would make more sense.

 

[Robertj21a]

More recently, the RMT might have softened resistance to accepting the guard should be foremost a customer-service job to have a viable future. It’s hard to tell and would be specific to each TOC. A guard on VTWC of course already spends almost all of their time at work doing nothing whatsoever to do with ‘safety’. With the GA deal now signed, the RMT have clearly accepted that the door control argument has now passed. However, the most recent public flyer for the SWR dispute does demonstrate that head office believes playing up customer service elements of the guard’s job is the lowest priority. Ironically, those are the elements that the passengers whose support is needed in their fight actually (in the majority) care most about.

The reason the RMT might resist intensive yearly exams on customer service knowledge (if not the training) is because it would provide a much greater opportunity for performance management on existing guards. Anything that involves things like targets for sales or ticket checks, or extra tests on regulations provides an opportunity to more easily weed out the worst and would not be in the union’s short term interests.

Quite. Heaven forbid that management be allowed to 'weed out the worst'........
Disappointing if the RMT couldn't see that the longer term benefits are far more important.

 

[pemma]

I've seen the franchise agreement. There are 3 (redacted) dates by which there are 3 (redacted) levels of DOO which must be implemented. No one knows (apart from Northern and our "government") what those levels are, they could be 50, 60, 80%.

But you've failed to use your brain and think about that logically. It can't be 80% as there is no requirement to fit DOO equipment to any of the existing trains, only the 195s and 331s and they can't possibly be used on 80% of passenger mileage - well not unless Northern permanently cancel 40% of services. Northern also won't be able to implement DCO on 50% of passenger mileage (the amount franchise bidders were instructed to bid on) overnight so it makes sense that it'll be a gradual introduction. I think it's pretty much universally understood Arriva submitted a bid with a list of DCO routes but they can be changed depending on negotiations with the unions but the RMT are unwilling to discuss what routes are and aren't suitable for DCO.

Just noticed in the franchise agreement there's a requirement for possible provision of railway services for Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II or any successor head of state or members of the family or representatives of either of them. It's probably in all franchise agreements but I've never noticed it before.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the strike I can see that RMT losing an awful lot of public support by striking on three consecutive saturdays. While commuters tend to accept strike days with a combination of stoicism and resigned acceptance, sports fans and pub crawlers tend to be much less forgiving, especially now we're into the football season. A bit of an own goal, I think.....