Arriva Rail North DOO

[woodmally]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the strike I can see that RMT losing an awful lot of public support by striking on three consecutive saturdays. While commuters tend to accept strike days with a combination of stoicism and resigned acceptance, sports fans and pub crawlers tend to be much less forgiving, especially now we're into the football season. A bit of an own goal, I think.....

Losing? I think the term is lost. Passengers have little or no faith in the RMT anymore and the only support the RMT seem to get is from the ardnt Labour left who support unions no matter what and the disabled who seem to think the RMT are looking out for thier interests. I think the biggest battle to be honest is being held inside the RMT more and more I am reading of workers deeply unhappy with the number of strikes hence the increasing calls for a new ballot. Simple reason for this is the strikes arnt working. Like I said previously they cant work. Northern legally cannot back down over DOO, RMT wont back down and the public have no power. As for other disputes been referenced such as Anglian. Either they are successful, and if they are I'd love to know how? Or they are equally stalling for time.

 

[pemma]

Losing? I think the term is lost. Passengers have little or no faith in the RMT anymore and the only support the RMT seem to get is from the ardnt Labour left who support unions no matter what and the disabled who seem to think the RMT are looking out for thier interests. I think the biggest battle to be honest is being held inside the RMT more and more I am reading of workers deeply unhappy with the number of strikes hence the increasing calls for a new ballot. Simple reason for this is the strikes arnt working. Like I said previously they cant work. Northern legally cannot back down over DOO, RMT wont back down and the public have no power. As for other disputes been referenced such as Anglian. Either they are successful, and if they are I'd love to know how? Or they are equally stalling for time.

The RMT seems to think most passengers supporting a second member of staff on every service means most passengers supporting their stance when it's anything but. Most passengers want a visible staff presence and would probably support the guards who hide in the cabs being disciplined for neglecting part of their job role. We know from a past dispute that the RMT thought it was unacceptable for Northern to dismiss a guard who allegedly put a potentially poisonous substance in a manager's drink and only 20% of his colleagues voted against going on strike over his dismissal. It was quite idiotic for the RMT to call a strike because now if anyone searches the name of the dismissed guard (like a prospective employer) his name is all over the Internet - are they actually trying to help their members, or just looking for any excuse to call a strike and make themselves look powerful?

 

[gorilladan]

All the current guards will be OK. There are enough Class 15x operated services, and will be well into the future, that I would expect that a job for all current guards is assured until they no longer want it for whatever reason. The situation isn't like Southern, as Northern have huge amounts of non-DOO stock that is not likely to be feasible to convert and will, Pacers aside, be keeping it all for many years yet.

They might well want to impose a recruitment freeze - but so what? I'm not in favour of unions protecting theoretical future members of staff, just current ones.

I am told, on good authority (& from 2 different sources), that Northern have recently attempted to install monitor screen(s) in trial cabs of 15x stock and had been about to consult on exact cab positioning. When questioned as to what purpose the monitor would be used for, no answer was forthcoming and the trial was hastily cut short.
This suggests that Northern DOO plans will involve 15x stock & not just their new-build traction.

 

[scrapy]

The RMT seems to think most passengers supporting a second member of staff on every service means most passengers supporting their stance when it's anything but. Most passengers want a visible staff presence and would probably support the guards who hide in the cabs being disciplined for neglecting part of their job role. We know from a past dispute that the RMT thought it was unacceptable for Northern to dismiss a guard who allegedly put a potentially poisonous substance in a manager's drink and only 20% of his colleagues voted against going on strike over his dismissal. It was quite idiotic for the RMT to call a strike because now if anyone searches the name of the dismissed guard (like a prospective employer) his name is all over the Internet - are they actually trying to help their members, or just looking for any excuse to call a strike and make themselves look powerful?

On the example that you give the action was based on the company not following proper disciplinary procedures and taking action having insufficient evidence, not because of the actual offence committed. If the company were able to dismiss someone little evidence in this case then this may set a precedent.

There are many examples where the RMT have advised a members to resign or retire based on evidence against them in a disciplinary. They have advised that they wouldn't be supported further by the union other than to ensure correct procedures were followed if they didn't take that advice.

 

[woodmally]

On the example that you give the action was based on the company not following proper disciplinary procedures and taking action having insufficient evidence, not because of the actual offence committed. If the company were able to dismiss someone little evidence in this case then this may set a precedent.

There are many examples where the RMT have advised a members to resign or retire based on evidence against them in a disciplinary. They have advised that they wouldn't be supported further by the union other than to ensure correct procedures were followed if they didn't take that advice.

So let me get this straight. A union that lauds us over passenger safety as an excuse for strike action would rather take on a company over their procedures even though what the employee apparently has done is down right appalling maybe even criminal. The lack of morals and decency of the RMT here is plain to see.

 

[pemma]

On the example that you give the action was based on the company not following proper disciplinary procedures and taking action having insufficient evidence, not because of the actual offence committed. If the company were able to dismiss someone little evidence in this case then this may set a precedent.

Surely in that event the first action should be for the RMT to help their member submit a claim for unfair dismissal (on the basis that incorrect procedures were used) and to not publish releases naming their member, even if he is OK with that, as it may hinder their member's future employment prospects.

 

[woodmally]

Surely in that event the first action should be for the RMT to help their member submit a claim for unfair dismissal (on the basis that incorrect procedures were used) and to not publish releases naming their member, even if he is OK with that, as it may hinder their member's future employment prospects.

Yes I have never understood why they propose strike action over these events. If the person is innocent then unfair dismissal should be challenged through the legal process. If the person is guilty then why should we care what happens to them. Strike action seems the wrong tool to use to deal with this problem.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

The RMT leadership are starting to become anxious, Guards are the same in RMT as Drivers are in ASLEF. Even though they are pretty much an all grades union they are beginning to get scared now that they are going to lose some power and influence. Even if they guaranteed jobs for life, T&Cs, guaranteed pay rises they wouldn't be happy with that it's more ideological than anything otherwise why do you think they wouldn't represent OBS ln Southern they make more effort representing the zero hour agency guys on the gates than on board staff (and that isnt me being derogatory they need the support after all). The RMT will not accept anything apart from a Guard on every train you could have a safety trained PTS member of staff on board every train and that is not good enough for them. Anglia is different DOO was not mandated in the franchise agreement, and on SWR my understanding is a Guard is guaranteed on every service however they want the flexibility to run without them in exceptional circumstances. The whole thing is a farce.

 

[Moonshot]

Its been mentioned above in the last few posts that RMT local reps have advised guards to tender their resignation as opposed to being dismissed. That has happened at least 3 times that I can think of in the last few years, and is actually a rational thing to do.

 

[woodmally]

The RMT leadership are starting to become anxious, Guards are the same in RMT as Drivers are in ASLEF. Even though they are pretty much an all grades union they are beginning to get scared now that they are going to lose some power and influence. Even if they guaranteed jobs for life, T&Cs, guaranteed pay rises they wouldn't be happy with that it's more ideological than anything otherwise why do you think they wouldn't represent OBS ln Southern they make more effort representing the zero hour agency guys on the gates than on board staff (and that isnt me being derogatory they need the support after all). The RMT will not accept anything apart from a Guard on every train you could have a safety trained PTS member of staff on board every train and that is not good enough for them. Anglia is different DOO was not mandated in the franchise agreement, and on SWR my understanding is a Guard is guaranteed on every service however they want the flexibility to run without them in exceptional circumstances. The whole thing is a farce.

Thats certainly very inciteful regarding Anglian and reinforces what I suspected was the case. That in Northern the RMT are not going to win this one. There is no wiggle room from these two intractable positions. It seems increasingly behind the scenes that RMT are having battles over this. Be interesting to see A) what happens with the talks with Northern (as I understand they are continuing, personally dont see why). However I would be interested to see if I am proved wrong on that. B) What will happen to the membership as more and more guards are getting fed up with the RMT leadership. There has been no recent ballot no do I think there will be one. The RMT haven't been known to back down so be interesting if they do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its been mentioned above in the last few posts that RMT local reps have advised guards to tender their resignation as opposed to being dismissed. That has happened at least 3 times that I can think of in the last few years, and is actually a rational thing to do.

For misconduct yes, but isn't this thread about potential redundancy?

 

[Moonshot]

For misconduct yes, but isn't this thread about potential redundancy?

Yes , I just happened to mention it in passing whilst the subject came up.

In terms of redundancy , if that did eventually come up at Northern, a fair number of long termers would actually take that and retire.

 

[pemma]

I am told, on good authority (& from 2 different sources), that Northern have recently attempted to install monitor screen(s) in trial cabs of 15x stock and had been about to consult on exact cab positioning. When questioned as to what purpose the monitor would be used for, no answer was forthcoming and the trial was hastily cut short.
This suggests that Northern DOO plans will involve 15x stock & not just their new-build traction.

Bit of a vague statement. Does that mean 158s which will be used on Northern Connect services or 153s which are leaving Northern next year?

Apparently Northern looked at replacing the Ashbourne seating on 150s with upcycled Chapman seating but decided against it due to costs. Maybe the monitor you refer to was also dropped for the same reason.

 

[scrapy]

Bit of a vague statement. Does that mean 158s which will be used on Northern Connect services or 153s which are leaving Northern next year?

Apparently Northern looked at replacing the Ashbourne seating on 150s with upcycled Chapman seating but decided against it due to costs. Maybe the monitor you refer to was also dropped for the same reason.

Apparently it would be 150/1s as other class 15x very difficult due to gangway doors. Might explain why Arriva want to form 3 car 150s with 150/1 cars at either end.

 

[pemma]

Might explain why Arriva want to form 3 car 150s with 150/1 cars at either end.

Surely the reason for that is something to replace 3 car 144s and 2 car DMU+153 combinations without needing to lease enough carriages to run 4 car 150s or having to do a lot of platform lengthening on routes like Penistone.

 

[woodmally]

Looks like more talks on Friday. Here is the official response from Northern for what it's worth. https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/n...mt-strike-announcement-aug-25-sep-1-and-sep-8

 

[pemma]

Looks like more talks on Friday. Here is the official response from Northern for what it's worth. https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/n...mt-strike-announcement-aug-25-sep-1-and-sep-8

The talks were planned for this Friday before the RMT announced the 3 strike dates as mentioned in an earlier post.

 

[Bromley boy]

So let me get this straight. A union that lauds us over passenger safety as an excuse for strike action would rather take on a company over their procedures even though what the employee apparently has done is down right appalling maybe even criminal. The lack of morals and decency of the RMT here is plain to see.

This is a little unfair.

Whatever you think of the RMT on a national level they are duty bound to ensure proper procedures are followed, however “obvious” the misconduct.

This works in the same way as how would be entitled to legal representation if you were arrested for a crime, however “obvious” your guilt.

Unions absolutely do not prevent staff being sacked for justifiable reasons.

 

[Carlisle]

Luckily your predecessors in the grade and the NUR/RMT didn't widely take such an apathetic attitude or you wouldn't have enjoyed the privileges you do in your role today.

It was always my understanding the NUR/RMT did very little in the way of opposing DOO until the Bob Crowe/ privatisation era , ASLEF did prevent its introduction on the Waterloo and Euston suburban services, but the non commercial guards role in those days wasn’t generally seen as especially rewarding or lucrative aside possibly from the travel concessions , so the NUR/RMT were more willing to negotiate with BR to redeploy displaced staff elsewhere, or take up offers offers of alternative jobs within the railway.

 

[Moonshot]

It was always my understanding the NUR/RMT did very little in the way of opposing DOO until the Bob Crowe/ privatisation era , ASLEF did prevent its introduction on the Waterloo and Euston suburban services, but the non commercial guards role in those days wasn’t generally seen as especially rewarding or lucrative aside possibly from the travel concessions , so the NUR/RMT were more willing to negotiate with BR to redeploy displaced staff elsewhere, or take up offers of alternative jobs within the railway

A fact that tends to get overlooked nowadays.

 

[WatcherZero]

Remember also the massive digging by Unions that a second man was needed in the drivers cab for safety when travelling over 100mph, forced the redesign of the APT cab from its original single central seat, but now who believes a train is less safe if theres not a co-driver sat next to them?

 

[the sniper]

It was always my understanding the NUR/RMT did very little in the way of opposing DOO until the Bob Crowe/ privatisation era , ASLEF did prevent its introduction on the Waterloo and Euston suburban services, but the non commercial guards role in those days wasn’t generally seen as especially rewarding or lucrative aside possibly from the travel concessions , so the NUR/RMT were more willing to negotiate with BR to redeploy displaced staff elsewhere, or take up offers offers of alternative jobs within the railway.

There was strong opposition in the early/NUR days of DOO implementation, but perhaps a national campaign wasn't prolonged or coordinated enough. There were a lot of issues in play around the time of the 1982 pay deal, in which they maybe lost sight of the long term significance and consequences of DOO on Bed Pan. Raising the low wages of many grades was a major consideration at the time though. You say they did 'very little', perhaps not enough. The book 'British Rail 1974-1997: From Integration to Privatisation' gives the impression that the NUR were firmly opposed to DOO, particularly in the case of Bed Pan.

I'd be interested to know what you're citing to say "ASLEF did prevent [DOO] introduction on the Waterloo and Euston suburban services". Certainly in the case of the former the agreement against DOO was signed with the RMT, it's available online: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/publications/south-west-trains-doo/swt-doo.pdf

 

[Robertj21a]

There was strong opposition in the early/NUR days of DOO implementation, but perhaps a national campaign wasn't prolonged or coordinated enough. There were a lot of issues in play around the time of the 1982 pay deal, in which they maybe lost sight of the long term significance and consequences of DOO on Bed Pan. Raising the low wages of many grades was a major consideration at the time though. You say they did 'very little', perhaps not enough. The book 'British Rail 1974-1997: From Integration to Privatisation' gives the impression that the NUR were firmly opposed to DOO, particularly in the case of Bed Pan.

I'd be interested to know what you're citing to say "ASLEF did prevent [DOO] introduction on the Waterloo and Euston suburban services". Certainly in the case of the former the agreement against DOO was signed with the RMT, it's available online: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/publications/south-west-trains-doo/swt-doo.pdf

Whether you agree with it or not, at least the BedPan agreement resulted in practical operation, over decades, that would evidence how safe DOO could be.

 

[Overspeed110]

But you've failed to use your brain and think about that logically. It can't be 80% as there is no requirement to fit DOO equipment to any of the existing trains, only the 195s and 331s and they can't possibly be used on 80% of passenger mileage - well not unless Northern permanently cancel 40% of services. Northern also won't be able to implement DCO on 50% of passenger mileage (the amount franchise bidders were instructed to bid on) overnight so it makes sense that it'll be a gradual introduction. I think it's pretty much universally understood Arriva submitted a bid with a list of DCO routes but they can be changed depending on negotiations with the unions but the RMT are unwilling to discuss what routes are and aren't suitable for DCO.

Just noticed in the franchise agreement there's a requirement for possible provision of railway services for Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II or any successor head of state or members of the family or representatives of either of them. It's probably in all franchise agreements but I've never noticed it before.

Absolutely nothing to stop them fitting out and using older stock for DOO, should they want to. The 323s already have all the door controls in the cab, the 319s just need them reconnecting.
Therefore your point is pointless.

 

[Carlisle]

I'd be interested to know what you're citing to say "ASLEF did prevent [DOO] introduction on the Waterloo and Euston suburban services". Certainly in the case of the former the agreement against DOO was signed with the RMT,

If my memory is correct, around 1990 drivers on Waterloo suburban services got the £7-£8 (can’t remember exact amount) daily DOO supplement for setting up the CSR radio equipment, but subsequently claimed problems with mirrors /monitors /station staffing and radios etc, meant they refused to bring in full DOO.
I don’t recall any serious proposals for a parallel guards strike so presumably at the time the NUR was ok with whatever arrangements the displaced staff had been offered, had the scheme gone ahead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely nothing to stop them fitting out and using older stock for DOO, should they want to. The 323s already have all the door controls in the cab, the 319s just need them reconnecting.
Therefore your point is pointless.

None of those units have cameras, though, and I doubt they will be running round the North West putting mirrors or platform cameras up. And there's no guarantee they can be fitted to the units without being out of gauge.

 

[Carlisle]

None of those units have cameras, though, and I doubt they will be running round the North West putting mirrors or platform cameras up. And there's no guarantee they can be fitted to the units without being out of gauge.

Scotrail and GWR have previously suggested they planned to fit bodyside cameras to some of their older stock, however both of those proposals were later dropped, only the LO 172s have so far been retrofitted.

 

[Starmill]

Absolutely nothing to stop them fitting out and using older stock for DOO, should they want to. The 323s already have all the door controls in the cab, the 319s just need them reconnecting.
Therefore your point is pointless.

Where are you going to fit the in-cab monitors in a 319? Or the cab of any sprinter? Where is the space for these?

 

[Robertj21a]

Absolutely nothing to stop them fitting out and using older stock for DOO, should they want to. The 323s already have all the door controls in the cab, the 319s just need them reconnecting.
Therefore your point is pointless.

Are you speaking from definite knowledge of the situation, or just making a guess ?. Are you involved in fitting these controls ?

 

[Eccles1983]

150's have the same door release buttons.

Its simply a case of rewiring them, and fitting body cameras.

Yours, someone who sits looking at said buttons most of the day.