Arriva Rail North DOO

[Killingworth]

A digression, the future in Northern-land is not this, at least in the lifetime of most of us. The Riyadh Metro project is something altogether different, see the Abu Dhabi National; https://www.thenational.ae/business/travel-and-tourism/riyadh-metro-mega-project-to-be-fully-operational-by-2021-1.711522

Driverless trains, and no mention of onboard staff. We who led the world are now so far behind we'll never catch up. Please get this dispute resolved. I'm relying on a train being available on the 27th October to take a group of walkers into the Peak District, an attempt to promote rail travel - sound of hollow laughter from the back

 

[alansheppard77]

Good to have more Saturdays off with the family!

stupid thing to say what about the public that pay your wages

 

[LowLevel]

*removed my childish indulgence before I get told off

 

[Smidster]

Good to have more Saturdays off with the family!

And that kind of attitude is exactly why I will never support this strike action - To me it completely undermines any legitimate arguments you may have about DOO and shows a complete disrespect for all the passengers who rely on the railway to go about their daily lives.

I hope you have lots more Saturdays free in the future

 

[Moonshot]

stupid thing to say what about the public that pay your wages

The public doesn't pay our wages, Arriva Northern do.

 

[Jonfun]

It's also important to remember that with reference to strikes, ultimately, the opinion of the public is completely and utterly irrelevent. Sure, it's nice if people support your cause, but industrial action is a dispute between the employees and their employer.

 

[pemma]

The public doesn't pay our wages, Arriva Northern do.

Arriva t/a Northern get their money from fare revenue as well as taxpayer's money from the government.

 

[pemma]

It's also important to remember that with reference to strikes, ultimately, the opinion of the public is completely and utterly irrelevent. Sure, it's nice if people support your cause, but industrial action is a dispute between the employees and their employer.

Yes which is why calling a strike should be a last resort and the RMT called strikes far too early in the dispute. They should have been working behind the scenes to resolve the dispute for a lot longer before calling strikes, calling frequent industrial action and pretending they are doing it for the safety of passengers is a pathetic excuse.

 

[ComUtoR]

Arriva t/a Northern get their money from fare revenue as well as taxpayer's money from the government.

I wonder how much tax the staff at Northern pay. The phrase 'I pay your wages' is very much used an an insult. I pay fares and pay tax. Do I pay my own wages ?

What about those Student loans, Benefits, GPs, Emergency services etc etc. Should we be screaming 'I pay your wages' each time they do something that goes against our political or social opinion ?

 

[pemma]

I wonder how much tax the staff at Northern pay. The phrase 'I pay your wages' is very much used an an insult. I pay fares and pay tax. Do I pay my own wages ?

What about those Student loans, Benefits, GPs, Emergency services etc etc. Should we be screaming 'I pay your wages' each time they do something that goes against our political or social opinion ?

The thing with Northern (and other TOCs) is effectively everyone contributes a small bit, even if you never use Northern. Almost everyone uses GPs and emergency services at some point, even if some people use them a lot more than others.

Student loans are loans which have interest added to them so I'm not sure what you're getting at there and without them the costs of public services would be much higher as people like GPs would have to be given paid training like train crews get.

Benefits aren't a single entity. There's income based and contribution based - contribution based is no different to a state pension. There's also benefits for those who are full time carers for a sick or disabled relative - people claiming those save the state money as the cost of providing full time care on the NHS would be substantially higher.

 

[ComUtoR]

In any tax based system we all put in and we all take out. Some more than others as you rightly say. That doesn't give you any right to state that you pay someone else's wages. You don't. You pay tax.

The same can be said with any service industry. You pay for a service. How that is provided and how that provider distributes their income is down to them. If you don't want to use their service or take umbrage at how they spend your money then feel free not to use it. I was out for diner last night. What I paid for was the meal. Granted that money then went, in a small part, to the waitress, chef, managers, cleaners etc etc. but the reality is that if you took my £xxx.xx that I spent only a tiny fraction of a penny actually went to the staff member who served me. At no point did I pay their wages. The restaurant did.

With basic every day items you go and buy from a store the same thing can be seen. If I go and buy a loaf of bread, part of that is going to the store staff and part of that goes back to people who worked to package it, make it, distribute it, design the packaging, and as far back as the farmer who made harvested the wheat to make the flour. Do you 'pay their wages' ? Again, at no point do you pay any of those people directly and a tiny fraction of your money goes to wages.

When money comes from your account directly to mine and you issue me a payslip then, you pay my wages. It's is used to put people down, insult them, and to appear superior. Considering where your money goes when you spend it; how many people on this planet could you say 'you pay their wages' There is a person in Japan somewhere who's wages I just paid because I just bought myself a new knife.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/83871.aspx

Here we answer some of the most commonly asked questions about rail fares.

Where does the money from my fare go?
On average, 98p in every pound of your fare goes back into the railway.

The vast majority of revenue from fares covers the costs of services, for example paying for trains, fuel, staff and other day-to-day running costs, and helps to sustain investment in more trains, better stations and faster journeys.

2% - Profit
5% - Fuel
8% - Government
12% - Track and Infrastructure
13% - Leasing
25% - Staff
35% - Other

When you consider your comment about public services and cost. Do you think that making Drivers pay their own training costs (so do btw) will decrease or increase your ticket price or even decrease their salary ?

 

[pemma]

In any tax based system we all put in and we all take out. Some more than others as you rightly say. That doesn't give you any right to state that you pay someone else's wages. You don't. You pay tax.

The same can be said with any service industry. You pay for a service. How that is provided and how that provider distributes their income is down to them. If you don't want to use their service or take umbrage at how they spend your money then feel free not to use it. I was out for diner last night. What I paid for was the meal. Granted that money then went, in a small part, to the waitress, chef, managers, cleaners etc etc. but the reality is that if you took my £xxx.xx that I spent only a tiny fraction of a penny actually went to the staff member who served me. At no point did I pay their wages. The restaurant did.

With basic every day items you go and buy from a store the same thing can be seen. If I go and buy a loaf of bread, part of that is going to the store staff and part of that goes back to people who worked to package it, make it, distribute it, design the packaging, and as far back as the farmer who made harvested the wheat to make the flour. Do you 'pay their wages' ? Again, at no point do you pay any of those people directly and a tiny fraction of your money goes to wages.

When money comes from your account directly to mine and you issue me a payslip then, you pay my wages. It's is used to put people down, insult them, and to appear superior. Considering where your money goes when you spend it; how many people on this planet could you say 'you pay their wages' There is a person in Japan somewhere who's wages I just paid because I just bought myself a new knife.

The railways are different to most industries because:
1. The fares are combined with tax payer's money to pay for everything from leasing stock to paying wages.
2. The railways are a public service but not everyone needs to use them.
3. While not everyone needs to use them some have to use them and don't have an alternative option.

You did pay towards the restaurant staff's wages. If everyone like you stopped eating there they would be made redundant as there would be no money to pay them with. Consequently, the restaurant staff know that if they treat customers like dirt they'll stop getting paid even if they don't get sacked for doing it.

Also don't forget train crews have posted on here about feeling they should have a right to get Grayling removed from his position due to his position being tax payer funded.

When you consider your comment about public services and cost. Do you think that making Drivers pay their own training costs (so do btw) will decrease or increase your ticket price or even decrease their salary ?

You're comparing apples with pears. Presumably you're aware many qualified British doctors don't work in Britain and many doctors who qualified abroad work in Britain, while those based in Britain can move freely between different health trusts. Yet with train drivers it wouldn't even be possible for Chiltern to loan a driver to Northern because they wouldn't sign the routes or the rolling stock, never mind a British train driver going to Melbourne or Toronto or a train driver from Mumbai or Frankfurt coming here.

 

[mandub]

2. The railways are a public service but not everyone needs to use them.

Not everyone uses the railway but everyone in the economy benefits from the railways. Same with roads, airports and all other infrastructure.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yet with train drivers it wouldn't even be possible for Chiltern to loan a driver to Northern because they wouldn't sign the routes or the rolling stock,

Actually it happens every single day at my TOC. We even had part time Drivers recruited over from freight to cover work on a temp contract.

Drivers have a huge degree of freedom across the entire country because we are trained to a national standard. Routes and traction is a small part of the process.

 

[beavercreek]

They haven’t even asked ASLEF yet and the answer along with the majority of drivers will be no.

 

[mandub]

They haven’t even asked ASLEF yet and the answer along with the majority of drivers will be no.

True, any vote put to the members would be a definite no.
But I do have a question re this and ASLEF position.
They've recently agreed a 2yr training plan with Northern to include training on the new trains (DOO equipped). Presumably this will include being trained to use the in cab cameras and DOO equipment. I've tried asking at work if this is the case and if so if it has any significance for ASLEF position on DOO on Northern. But no one seems to know any details.

 

[Carlisle]

Actually it happens every single day at my TOC. We even had part time Drivers recruited over from freight to cover work on a temp contract.
.

Ok and I also believe TPE have had a longstanding contract using Freightliner drivers on some routes , but it’s certainly not a practice that’s widespread throughout the industry.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

True, any vote put to the members would be a definite no.
But I do have a question re this and ASLEF position.
They've recently agreed a 2yr training plan with Northern to include training on the new trains (DOO equipped). Presumably this will include being trained to use the in cab cameras and DOO equipment. I've tried asking at work if this is the case and if so if it has any significance for ASLEF position on DOO on Northern. But no one seems to know any details.

It's an interesting question. OTOH some years ago ASLEF did overwhelmingly pass a motion at their annual conference expressing complete opposition to the introduction of completely new DOO schemes. Given what was already in the Ts&Cs of drivers at some TOCs that didn't mean they could actually do much about geographic expansion of existing DOO areas but completely new ones are a different matter. Much has been made of the Merseyrail agreement but ASLEF could still put a fairly hefty spanner in the works of that one. Until Northern drivers formally start training on the new units we don't really know how ASLEF will handle things at that TOC. Back in the day they would simply have blacked the stock for having door controls arranged within easy reach of the driver but I suspect that won't happen now. More likely is that they will point to their Ts&Cs and refuse to touch said door controls until contracts have been re-negotiated. Whether there is the will, and the money, to allow that is surely the key question in the whole dispute.

 

[alansheppard77]

The public doesn't pay our wages, Arriva Northern do.

and where do they get there money from,us the suffering public

 

[Carlisle]

Back in the day they would simply have blacked the stock for having door controls arranged within easy reach of the driver but I suspect that won't happen now.

I think you’ll find that’s barely happened since the settlement of the original Bed-Pan DOO dispute around 1983 and even significantly before that all the PEP derived units will have operated with driver door controls fitted from new

 

[Starmill]

Good to have more Saturdays off with the family!

Surely more Saturdays on the picket line?

 

[Starmill]

How about indefinitely? Do you think that would produce a different outcome?

That would change the dynamic significantly from what we have today. But it would be risky.

 

[Starmill]

Tempt the DfT to make a deal which will help get the strikes off the agenda.

Is this realistic? Does DfT actually want the strikes stopped more than it wants the Union defeated? I don't think so.

 

[Carlisle]

Is this realistic? Does DfT actually want the strikes stopped more than it wants the Union defeated? I don't think so.

Do you think the DFT would have allowed the Greater Anglia deal, to go through if the whole process simply amounted to little more than a strategy to try and crush the RMT ?

 

[Starmill]

Do you think the DFT would have allowed the Greater Anglia deal, to go through if the whole process simply amounted to little more than a strategy to try and crush the RMT ?

How are the DfT even involved in that deal? They didn't specify the franchise to include those changes.

 

[pemma]

Surely more Saturdays on the picket line?

Presumably the guards are taking their families to the picket lines, after all the fight is apparently all about passenger safety and their family members are likely passengers so if they support the safety argument why not join the guards on the picket line.

 

[Confused52]

Is this realistic? Does DfT actually want the strikes stopped more than it wants the Union defeated? I don't think so.

That the DfT want to defeat the union is probably just a conspiracy theory. It is far more likely that they feel obliged to cut the costs of a very heavily subsidised franchise where it is possible. Key to this is the redacted text showing the routes where the second franchise employee is required. For myself I find it unbelievable that no one on the union side knows what it says and even less credible that if it was everywhere the union wouldn't have leaked the text by now. So those who seem to speak for the union say what you know or challenge the FOI since it being at the centre of these strike means that its disclosure is in the public interest to resolve the situation. If the union doesn't know and won't find out then conclusions about truthfulness and motivations can be determined by the public.

 

[evoluzione]

Pay rise is on hold until dispute is sorted.

No it’s not, pay talks reconvene next week thought you’d know this.

 

[Eccles1983]

No it’s not, pay talks reconvene next week thought you’d know this.

Correct.

A guard would know this. I have explained this before but said poster seems a protected species on here.

 

[Andyh82]

With the amount of money Northern must be losing by having their leisure market decimated, I’m surprised they can afford to offer a pay rise.