Arriva Rail North DOO

[387star]

Says it all regarding the importance of a strong union which doesn't give up

Britain’s unions were broken and battered by Thatcherism and never recovered. While more than half of workers were union members in 1979, today the figure is less than a quarter. It is the younger workers who are least likely to be unionised: a mere 8% of workers under 25 are members. The lack of any organised counterweight to the power of bosses has left many employees lacking security, ill treated at work, and paid derisory wages. Indeed, while Britain’s workers suffered the worst squeeze in wages of any industrialised nation other than Greece, the fall has been felt sharpest by the youngest: for workers aged 18 to 21, real weekly wages collapsed by 16% in the years after the crash.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/04/young-people-capitalism-mcstrike-unions

 

[LOL The Irony]

Says it all:
Britain’s unions were broken and battered by Thatcherism and never recovered. While more than half of workers were union members in 1979, today the figure is less than a quarter. It is the younger workers who are least likely to be unionised: a mere 8% of workers under 25 are members. The lack of any organised counterweight to the power of bosses has left many employees lacking security, ill treated at work, and paid derisory wages. Indeed, while Britain’s workers suffered the worst squeeze in wages of any industrialised nation other than Greece, the fall has been felt sharpest by the youngest: for workers aged 18 to 21, real weekly wages collapsed by 16% in the years after the crash.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/04/young-people-capitalism-mcstrike-unions

I think using a disaster to prove point says it all about the RMT.

 

[Ianigsy]

Would it maybe be in the interests of Northern & their passengers for Northern to go to ASLEF and essentially force them to strike so they can reach a deal?

The interests of ASLEF and their members are probably best served by letting the RMT and Northern management slug it out until such time as the new units are in place ready to use. They can then negotiate with Northern management and raise the prospect of two separate running disputes.

The RMT don't have an incentive to give ground while the prospect of a Labour government with a manifesto commitment to renationalise is as likely a prospect as any other in the next twelve months. Their Saturday strikes are now starting to hit major events (Warrington-Wigan rugby final at Old Trafford next Saturday).

 

[Starmill]

The interests of ASLEF and their members are probably best served by letting the RMT and Northern management slug it out until such time as the new units are in place ready to use. They can then negotiate with Northern management and raise the prospect of two separate running disputes.

Quite. Not long to wait now.

 

[js1000]

The railways have been in the pockets of the unions for years now in terms of using passengers as ransom for above-average pay rises.

I sympathise with the train guards' predicament and passenger safety but at the same time it'll be good when the new trains come in.

If they don't want to work Saturdays then so be it...

 

[Carlisle]

The RMT don't have an incentive to give ground

Then the argument seems to gravitate towards claims that all would be fine if politicians weren’t involved, that only appear to hold water if the employer chose to totally back down on everything, otherwise the RMT would very soon be contacting every MP Minister Councillor and Mayor willing to listen, protesting about the basket case TOC that’s imposing new contracts without agreement on their members.

 

[pemma]

A passenger sat behind me today asked the guard if more strikes were planned in November and December. Her response was the RMT usually send out a press release before they email their members so he'll probably know before she does. More interestingly she said she had only been with Northern for a few months and has never had the opportunity to vote on industrial action or been asked for her opinion on how often strikes should happen.

 

[Kite159]

A passenger sat behind me today asked the guard if more strikes were planned in November and December. Her response was the RMT usually send out a press release before they email their members so he'll probably know before she does. More interestingly she said she had only been with Northern for a few months and has never had the opportunity to vote on industrial action or been asked for her opinion on how often strikes should happen.

No doubt the news will come in the next couple days that the RMT have increased the striking to cover the next 3 saturdays, maybe even a weekday to cause even more folk to leave the rail network behind.

 

[XDM]

The North can manage without train services - sadly. Car & bus do most of the heavy lifting.
London can manage with rail strikes, providing it is one TOC at a time & the underground/overground are working.

Managers must be firm, specially in the north.
They must find an excellent spokesperson to explain why it is essential to bring in the changes.
They must tough it out. Their opponents, the RMT organisation, are driven by ideology, look at RMT's rule 4b. All RMT members & RMT employees sign up to it. You would be expelled if you announced that you do not agree with opposing private companies & putting their businesses in public hands.
If you don't believe me google RMT & look at rule4b.
Many decent ordinary RMT members do not realise they are part of the class war.

 

[Ianigsy]

More interestingly she said she had only been with Northern for a few months and has never had the opportunity to vote on industrial action or been asked for her opinion on how often strikes should happen.

That chimes with something I've noticed travelling on the Calder Valley in the last few weeks - I thought quite a few of the train crew seemed to be on the younger side (i.e. about 25-40). Makes me wonder whether experienced crew are leaving the industry or moving to other TOCs.

 

[Starmill]

The railways have been in the pockets of the unions for years now in terms of using passengers as ransom for above-average pay rises.

Really? In what way?

 

[Harry26]

I may be a lay person here but if a train is DOO and someone is sitting in my seat and refuses to move, who do I report it to ? What happens if I am attacked ? Do I have to pull the emergency stop ? Who checks the tickets ? Who ensured that I’ve got my wheelchair bound mother in the train ? Etc etc

 

[Kite159]

I may be a lay person here but if a train is DOO and someone is sitting in my seat and refuses to move, who do I report it to ? What happens if I am attacked ? Do I have to pull the emergency stop ? Who checks the tickets ? Who ensured that I’ve got my wheelchair bound mother in the train ? Etc etc

The vast majority of Driver Only operated trains don't have seat reservations, I think the only ones which might do are some IETs working Paddington - Oxford services.

 

[Harry26]

The vast majority of Driver Only operated trains don't have seat reservations, I think the only ones which might do are some IETs working Paddington - Oxford services.

Ok thanks. I think I just find it utterly incomprehensible that I would not be able to speak to a staff member about any concerns I might have, although I appreciate that this situation may currently exist on parts of the network (London Underground maybe)

 

[Robertj21a]

Ok thanks. I think I just find it utterly incomprehensible that I would not be able to speak to a staff member about any concerns I might have, although I appreciate that this situation may currently exist on parts of the network (London Underground maybe)

The same situation has existed for decades, even on long commuter trains through London. It's nothing new !

 

[Carlisle]

Really? In what way?

As a poster stated recently , since privatisation it’s turned out easier and simpler for unions to mobilise support for ballots on industrial action at individual TOCs than it ever did nationally under BR, combined with very limited opportunity in the earlier franchise agreements for a TOC to reclaim anything resembling the full costs of any strikes that actually took place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ok thanks. I think I just find it utterly incomprehensible that I would not be able to speak to a staff member about any concerns I might have, although I appreciate that this situation may currently exist on parts of the network (London Underground maybe)

The majority of passenger journeys occur on DOO trains, mostly without incident.

 

[superkev]

Looks to me like the strikes will go on forever.
Perhaps the RMT should publish dates up to the May 19 timetable change and beyond so they can be incorporated into the timetables.
K

 

[Robertj21a]

Looks to me like the strikes will go on forever.
Perhaps the RMT should publish dates up to the May 19 timetable change and beyond so they can be incorporated into the timetables.
K

Agreed. Many more months to go, well into 2019.

 

[Killingworth]

Agreed. Many more months to go, well into 2019.

Well, we've pulled the planned walk to mark the 125th anniversary of the opening of the Dore and Chinley Railway, the Hope Valley line, due on 27 October. Not much point in featuring over and under from Dore & Totley to Grindleford (under and over option for those from the west) when there's likely to be no train to do the under part! Publicity had been low key in view of uncertainty but the continued doubts make it more hassle to continue than it was worth. That was 125 years of freight operation. Passenger traffic didn't commence until the following May/June. Maybe there might be a reliable service for us to celebrate by then. Not sure we should hold our breath.

 

[CN75]

I may be a lay person here but if a train is DOO and someone is sitting in my seat and refuses to move, who do I report it to ? What happens if I am attacked ? Do I have to pull the emergency stop ? Who checks the tickets ? Who ensured that I’ve got my wheelchair bound mother in the train ? Etc etc

You would speak to the (new) person on the train whose job role is all about helping you with the above rather than spending weeks learning about fantasies of walking off down the track and wave red flags.

 

[Jonfun]

You would speak to the (new) person on the train whose job role is all about helping you with the above rather than spending weeks learning about fantasies of walking off down the track and wave red flags.

I still don't understand why the two things are seen as mutually exclusive. Why is training the member of staff how to stop trains in an emergency seen as a bad thing?

 

[Killingworth]

I still don't understand why the two things are seen as mutually exclusive. Why is training the member of staff how to stop trains in an emergency seen as a bad thing?

It's not. Far from it. However the task that's most needed on every train on every journey is caring for passenger needs and protecting revenue. Many jobs work in a similar way whereby the potential to cover an emergency requires extra training that should rarely be called into use .

 

[theblackwatch]

I may be a lay person here but if a train is DOO and someone is sitting in my seat and refuses to move, who do I report it to ? What happens if I am attacked ? Do I have to pull the emergency stop ? Who checks the tickets ? Who ensured that I’ve got my wheelchair bound mother in the train ? Etc etc

Many of these questions could equally apply at present when a train is formed of two units, one of which does not have cab gangway connections.

 

[Tomnick]

You would speak to the (new) person on the train whose job role is all about helping you with the above rather than spending weeks learning about fantasies of walking off down the track and wave red flags.

Emergency protection is days, almost hours, not weeks in the classroom. It’s perfectly possible to help the passengers and be competent to do the above, as guards should currently be doing. You won’t have either if there isn’t a second person on the train though, which will be inevitable to some extent under the current proposals.

 

[pemma]

I may be a lay person here but if a train is DOO and someone is sitting in my seat and refuses to move, who do I report it to ? What happens if I am attacked ? Do I have to pull the emergency stop ? Who checks the tickets ? Who ensured that I’ve got my wheelchair bound mother in the train ? Etc etc

You're barking up the wrong tree. Guards put operational duties first and customer service duties second, on a DOO service additional staff put customer service duties first. Therefore, if you're on a DOO service with an OBS you should find it easier to find a member of staff to assist you. Of course it needs to be ensured TOCs produce a roster which has a second member of staff on every service and it doesn't 'accidentally' include people who are on holiday.

 

[pemma]

Emergency protection is days, almost hours, not weeks in the classroom. It’s perfectly possible to help the passengers and be competent to do the above, as guards should currently be doing. You won’t have either if there isn’t a second person on the train though, which will be inevitable to some extent under the current proposals.

But in the event of genuine staff shortages due to things like illness, there are safety issues with leaving passengers at stations for an additional 30/60 minutes. That person who might commit assault is more of a threat at a rural station with one other passenger, then they are on a train with numerous people on board - guard or no guard.

 

[pemma]

That chimes with something I've noticed travelling on the Calder Valley in the last few weeks - I thought quite a few of the train crew seemed to be on the younger side (i.e. about 25-40). Makes me wonder whether experienced crew are leaving the industry or moving to other TOCs.

Northern should have been recruiting large numbers of additional staff for the planned service enhancements (many of which have been postponed) but given there's still services cancelled due to staff shortages even when many of the additional services have been postponed, it suggests something is wrong - if staff aren't leaving in mass numbers then either Northern haven't recruited enough additional staff or there's some training/planning issue.

 

[pemma]

Says it all regarding the importance of a strong union which doesn't give up

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/04/young-people-capitalism-mcstrike-unions

Written by Owen Jones so as neutral as an article on the EU written by Farage.

Given the minimum wage has increased significantly in recent years (there wasn't one at all under John Mayor), many people on low incomes now pay no income tax (it's now something like the first £12,500 is tax free rather than £6,500) and the loophole which meant those who didn't work Mondays didn't get as much holiday as those who did has been closed, Jones must be referring to people working fewer hours.

 

[coppercapped]

I may be a lay person here but if a train is DOO and someone is sitting in my seat and refuses to move, who do I report it to ? What happens if I am attacked ? Do I have to pull the emergency stop ? Who checks the tickets ? Who ensured that I’ve got my wheelchair bound mother in the train ? Etc etc

The question of seat reservations has been dealt with by other posters, but it seems that you are not quite clear what DOO means. Driver Only Operation means that the Operation (in the railway sense of movement) of the train is entirely under the control of the driver - that is anything to do with starting, motion, stopping, opening and closing of the doors. It does NOT mean that there are no other members of railway staff on the train - but the presence of these staff is not essential for the train to run. It DOES mean that these additional staff are not involved in the opening and closing of the doors and the dispatch of the train. Recently there is a tendency to refer to DOO with an additional member of staff on the train as DCO - Driver Controlled Operation.