Arriva Rail North DOO

[a_c_skinner]

I was thinking of someone or a safety hazard on board in the carriages endangering the lives of passengers. Something which the driver would be oblivious to happening until perhaps it was too late.

But (allowing for my preference for a second person on train) what were you thinking of? Things that have actually happened and been helped by a guard. That is the logic problem of the staff side's position.

To a lot of people this will seem not about safety or jobs (which are secured for all post holders, we are told) it is about a union maintaining its influence and power.

I'm sorry, I've joined in the circles in which we are going round. And round and round.

 

[Robertj21a]

Not to worry, we're about to come up to the 2nd birthday of this thread starting - and 5,000+ posts later nothing has really changed. Nor do I expect anything much to change before we 'celebrate' the 3rd birthday in 2019.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Although in a perceived poorly wrote tweet, I was thinking of someone or a safety hazard on board in the carriages endangering the lives of passengers. Something which the driver would be oblivious to happening until perhaps it was too late.

In the matter of "someone in the carriages endangering the lives of passengers" mentioned above, what are the guidance advices given to rail staff when such an incident could see the "someone" acting in an aggressive manner and not mindful of acting in a "normal manner" due to mental or drug/drink influenced problems? In cases such as this, how would protection be afforded to the passengers by the rail staff?

 

[pemma]

Just found out Manchester City Council have opted for a Saturday evening switch on for the Manchester Christmas lights this year. I suppose the stewards will have an easier job due to the rail strike - that's presuming the stewards can get to central Manchester for work!

 

[pemma]

I have to say, I've yet to be on a service without a mandatory second staff member, where I have found the customer experience to be better than that offered by (to my mind) normal services where a guard has to be present, therefore I have a lot of sympathy with the idea that a second member of staff should be guaranteed on board. I disagree that this member of staff should necessarily have the same duties preserved in aspic.

Have you never been on Sheffield Supertram who have a 'non-safety critical' second person on board? Most of current DOO heavy rail services are London area services where the train formation is much longer and passenger numbers are much higher than in the north so it's difficult to make direct comparisons.

 

[furnessvale]

Just found out Manchester City Council have opted for a Saturday evening switch on for the Manchester Christmas lights this year. I suppose the stewards will have an easier job due to the rail strike - that's presuming the stewards can get to central Manchester for work!

I should imagine the majority will arrive by car and bus as they always have done. The few that normally use the train will use the car or bus and think "why did I ever bother with the train?"

 

[PR1Berske]

I should imagine the majority will arrive by car and bus as they always have done. The few that normally use the train will use the car or bus and think "why did I ever bother with the train?"

And that doesn't sound encouraging does it? "Why did I ever bother with the train if there's always strikes and things shut down at 7pm?"

There are some on here who accuse the government and TOC management of "playing trains". How true is that of striking guards? It doesn't matter is passengers use buses or cars, what's the point of trains at all, why not just strike the Railways out of existence?!

 

[pemma]

I should imagine the majority will arrive by car and bus as they always have done. The few that normally use the train will use the car or bus and think "why did I ever bother with the train?"

I went a few years back from Knutsford and going back it was a full 4 car Pacer. Unlike the privileged passengers living near the Buxton line many towns don't have both a bus and a train to Manchester or have regular train services on strike days.

 

[furnessvale]

I went a few years back from Knutsford and going back it was a full 4 car Pacer. Unlike the privileged passengers living near the Buxton line many towns don't have both a bus and a train to Manchester or have regular train services on strike days.

Indeed, a complete closure of all railways in GB would result in inconvenience for the 5% of passengers currently using them.

By "bus to Manchester" I presume you mean a through service. Anyone south of Hazel Grove has to use multiple buses, there are no direct connections.

 

[pemma]

Indeed, a complete closure of all railways in GB would result in inconvenience for the 5% of passengers currently using them.

By "bus to Manchester" I presume you mean a through service. Anyone south of Hazel Grove has to use multiple buses, there are no direct connections.

Buxton has only just lost its' direct bus service to Manchester due to decreased usage but still has a relatively fast bus to Manchester Airport via Stockport from 04:30, with the last bus back at 23:30. Hazel Grove has a bus to Manchester every few minutes.

Where do you get the 5% figure from? Most people I know use the train at least occasionally even if they can count on their fingers the number of times they travel by train in a year e.g. only using the train when their car fails or on the day of the work of Christmas Party. Are you basing that figure on census data which only asks how people get to work and is now 7 years out-of-date?

 

[Robertj21a]

Buxton has only just lost its' direct bus service to Manchester due to decreased usage but still has a relatively fast bus to Manchester Airport via Stockport from 04:30, with the last bus back at 23:30. Hazel Grove has a bus to Manchester every few minutes.

Where do you get the 5% figure from? Most people I know use the train at least occasionally even if they can count on their fingers the number of times they travel by train in a year e.g. only using the train when their car fails or on the day of the work of Christmas Party. Are you basing that figure on census data which only asks how people get to work and is now 7 years out-of-date?

I wouldn't be surprised if it's about 5%. Some areas will be nearer 0%. I don't know of anybody else who uses the train at all.

 

[JamesT]

Buxton has only just lost its' direct bus service to Manchester due to decreased usage but still has a relatively fast bus to Manchester Airport via Stockport from 04:30, with the last bus back at 23:30. Hazel Grove has a bus to Manchester every few minutes.

Where do you get the 5% figure from? Most people I know use the train at least occasionally even if they can count on their fingers the number of times they travel by train in a year e.g. only using the train when their car fails or on the day of the work of Christmas Party. Are you basing that figure on census data which only asks how people get to work and is now 7 years out-of-date?

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-travel-survey-2017 is the latest set of statistics done on a yearly basis by getting a sample of people to record what transport they use.
It says 2% of all trips by rail, 8% by distance. Though it is only England, but I can't imagine the rest of the UK is going to make a meaningful difference.

 

[Robertj21a]

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-travel-survey-2017 is the latest set of statistics done on a yearly basis by getting a sample of people to record what transport they use.
It says 2% of all trips by rail, 8% by distance. Though it is only England, but I can't imagine the rest of the UK is going to make a meaningful difference.

That's the problem with a specialist forum such as this. It gives a totally distorted view of what most 'normal' people actually do, or think. If train use is about 2% then, from my experience, that's not at all surprising.

 

[pemma]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's about 5%. Some areas will be nearer 0%. I don't know of anybody else who uses the train at all.

I suppose living within an hour's journey time of a big city than rail usage will probably be higher in my local area than it would be in other parts of the country. Although, the original argument related to how many people would have used the train to get to the Manchester Christmas lights switch on, so it's not really relevant to bring up how people get between two towns which aren't even connected by rail.

 

[Carlisle]

Although in a perceived poorly wrote tweet, I was thinking of someone or a safety hazard on board in the carriages endangering the lives of passengers. Something which the driver would be oblivious to happening until perhaps it was too late.

I’m sure that’s a major factor why in recent years, pure DOO has only been proposed for frequently stopping metro style services using staffed stations, and any DCO service utilising a new grade of onboard staff would only be intended to run that way in exceptional circumstances

 

[Confused52]

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-travel-survey-2017 is the latest set of statistics done on a yearly basis by getting a sample of people to record what transport they use.
It says 2% of all trips by rail, 8% by distance. Though it is only England, but I can't imagine the rest of the UK is going to make a meaningful difference.

Well that is a headline figure and the problem is that people interpret it differently according to their pre-conceptions. If you look at Table NTS0409 (for 2017) you find that where the purpose is commuting then Heavy Rail is 10 out of 144 or almost 7%, for leisure it is 5 out of 252 or 2%, and shopping 1 out of 189 so 0.5%. Trains are not full of shoppers just like you always thought! Just for completeness, for all journey types it is 21 out of 975 so 2.2% and so lining up with your post. Out of interest London Underground is close to half of Heavy Rail for every purpose showing the importance of London in national statistics.

 

[CHAPS2034]

There was a lot of chat a bit back about dispatch at stations and some speculation. Here are some comments.

Now that is madness...why does the guard have to be in the second unit that has nobody in it?

Other TOCs don't even require them to be there when there are passengers there!

I thought it was a Northern SOP that the guard always had to dispatch from the rear unit of a non gang-wayed pair? Perhaps someone could clarify? The reason why there are few in that unit is , as someone already said is that they know no ticket check will take place in the front unit unless there are additional staff on the train - which sometimes happens

Why is it OK for a 3 car 323/4 car 319 to be dispatched at Alderley Edge or Cheadle Hulme without a dispatcher but not at Wilmslow or Stockport?

I'm assuming that it was down to a formal risk assessment. Straight line platform, low passenger numbers. Both Wilmslow and Stockport are busier stations with greater numbers of passengers, many who will be waiting for other services at the same platform.

However not all platforms at Cheadle Hulme are straight. P3 (down Macc) has a significant (right hand) curvature and the guard has to step right out on the platform to check all doors are closed. The up Macc (P4) has a left hand curvature and is therefore easier to police.

I was thinking more of the total passenger numbers milling around on the platform. At the Alderley and Cheadle platforms I would expect everyone to be either entering or leaving the train. At the other stations, there will be passengers waiting for other services.

At Cheadle Hulme the Stoke southbound service is 5 minutes after the Alderley Edge and while there's bigger gaps northbound if the Wigan bound service is late, people for Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme (who have to catch the ex-Crewe to Piccadilly) might be waiting on the platform by the time it arrives.

Using the station frequently, the Manchester bound platforms are crowded in the morning rush hour but people aren't milling about on the same platform waiting for other trains. The Alderley starter is rarely that late as it has a long layover at Alderley and may be delayed a few minutes if the Cardiff is running a little late, but not that late that people waiting for the xx24 will already be at the station.

As far as Stockport is concerned, it's a Virgin station and platform dispatch for all TOCs is carried out by their staff. Wilmslow is a Northern station who dispatch for all the TOCs using there.

Hope this clarifies the situation for people who have never been there.

 

[pemma]

I think this has been considered a given for months now. Notwithstanding any potential resolution to the dispute, between now and then, of course.

Furthermore, I question what value RMT places on public opinion.

The RMT might not care if the Christmas markets suffer but surely the Saturdays leading up to Christmas are the days the guards can make tonnes of commission. When else do they get 10 people boarding at a little remote unstaffed station without a TVM 30 miles from Manchester, all wanting to buy returns to Manchester?

 

[LowLevel]

The RMT might not care if the Christmas markets suffer but surely the Saturdays leading up to Christmas are the days the guards can make tonnes of commission. When else do they get 10 people boarding at a little remote unstaffed station without a TVM 30 miles from Manchester, all wanting to buy returns to Manchester?

Earning commission is much easier on an emptier train than a full one.

Commission is largely irrelevent anyway - I take loads of money and still get only slightly more than one Rest Day Work.

I took 500 quid on a train the other day that called entirely at manned stations. It's not predictable.

 

[Starmill]

Commission is a relatively small slice of the pie, and in any case I suspect it's very difficult to sell tickets on December Saturdays given the trains are full and standing for so much of their journey. However, those December Saturdays will be a significant source of seasonal revenue for the company. If people aren't buying those tickets I suspect the loss of revenue will far outstrip any commission-based effects.

 

[pemma]

Commission is a relatively small slice of the pie, and in any case I suspect it's very difficult to sell tickets on December Saturdays given the trains are full and standing for so much of their journey. However, those December Saturdays will be a significant source of seasonal revenue for the company. If people aren't buying those tickets I suspect the loss of revenue will far outstrip any commission-based effects.

Which then means either the TOC will make savings e.g. below inflation pay rises or they'll get revenue support which means the taxpayer is footing the bill for the strikes.

 

[Kite159]

Which then means either the TOC will make savings e.g. below inflation pay rises or they'll get revenue support which means the taxpayer is footing the bill for the strikes.

And part of the revenue support could mean less trains being run, so lines which enjoyed an half hourly service finds services dropping to hourly, planned improvements get dropped etc, and in extreme cases some stations being closed.

I bet some bus companies are enjoying the additional income they are seeing from folk avoiding the trains, maybe some of the folk who didn't know that they had a bus with leather seats/USB sockets which dropped off in the centre of town with fares being cheaper than the hourly pacer.

 

[woodmally]

One related question. Are the pretence of talks still going ahead between RMT and Northern or are they just not talking now? Also any news on if Acas has been brought in?

 

[pemma]

One related question. Are the pretence of talks still going ahead between RMT and Northern or are they just not talking now? Also any news on if Acas has been brought in?

Acas have been brought in but the RMT still refused to budge from guard doing the doors on every service.

 

[pemma]

I bet some bus companies are enjoying the additional income they are seeing from folk avoiding the trains, maybe some of the folk who didn't know that they had a bus with leather seats/USB sockets which dropped off in the centre of town with fares being cheaper than the hourly pacer.

If buses in Cheshire are representative of the whole North West they'll find bus services are a lot more limited then they were 10 years ago and routes advertised as having high spec buses with wifi can have any old bus turning up on them and routes which aren't advertised as having high spec buses with wifi sometimes get one anyway.

Also, not sure about cheaper bus fares have been catching up train fares at a rapid rate. The dual operator PeakPlus Xtra in Derbyshire costs £12.50, while an off-peak day return from Buxton to Manchester by train costs £10.70.

 

[Dave1987]

The one thing that this thread has definitely told me is that a bunch of people on the internet believe they know my job better than I do.

 

[DaveB10780]

The one thing that this thread has definitely told me is that a bunch of people on the internet believe they know my job better than I do.

And for me that neither unions or TOC neither appear to really care about the paying public nor any compromises.

 

[Carlisle]

The one thing that this thread has definitely told me is that a bunch of people on the internet believe they know my job better than I do.

Aye, possibly, but also consider there’s bound to be at least a few on here who’ve worked in the industry longer than you or I’ve been alive

 

[muz379]

All the strikers should be banned from overtime payments and be hurt in the pocket as much as possible for what they have perpetrated.

That would lead to much more sporadic short notice cancellation of trains . Such so that your daughter might get a train to Manchester but then come to find that her last train home is cancelled in its entirety only as she arrives at the station to board it and that she might have to wait over an hour in Manchester for a replacement bus to be sourced .

You ought to have known in advance that her journey times would leave her having to travel by alternative means between Stockport and Buxton what with the strikes being announced at least 2 weeks in advance . An overtime ban imposed from either side however would lead to short notice service disruption of a completely unpredictable nature .

I am sure you would have something to say had the RMT imposed a work to rule / overtime ban and we seen massive short notice service alternation and cancellation akin to the disruption experienced immediately following the may timetable change . Yet you want the company to engage in a course of action which will have the same result for vindictive reasons .

 

[woodmally]

That would lead to much more sporadic short notice cancellation of trains . Such so that your daughter might get a train to Manchester but then come to find that her last train home is cancelled in its entirety only as she arrives at the station to board it and that she might have to wait over an hour in Manchester for a replacement bus to be sourced .

You ought to have known in advance that her journey times would leave her having to travel by alternative means between Stockport and Buxton what with the strikes being announced at least 2 weeks in advance . An overtime ban imposed from either side however would lead to short notice service disruption of a completely unpredictable nature .

I am sure you would have something to say had the RMT imposed a work to rule / overtime ban and we seen massive short notice service alternation and cancellation akin to the disruption experienced immediately following the may timetable change . Yet you want the company to engage in a course of action which will have the same result for vindictive reasons .

Why haven't the RMT gone down the work to rule route. They would win over more support from the general public and hit the company just as hard.