Arriva Rail North DOO

[pemma]

The same was said during the Southern dispute, along with frequent suggestions the law should be tightened on industrial action , but ASLEFs willingness to eventually agree a deal probably prevented the govt acting further, leaving the RMT free to take their campaign elsewhere

With the RMT attempting to start disputes with all new franchises - note what happened with TPE, they had no plans to operate services without guards but because the ITT permitted but didn't require DOO they started a dispute, only to immediately end it.

 

[yorksrob]

It was around the time of the Southern dispute that Peter Wilkinson made his passionate "break the unions" speech, about how he was going to "push them into that place" (strikes until the unions can no longer sustain them) and how it was going to be messy so everyone would have to have some patience. Let's be clear - this is his making. He wanted these long series of disruptive strikes, and the seemingly pointless "DCO" requirement was his way of provoking them.

He should certainly be fired.

He has no business committing my time to his ideological struggle.

 

[pemma]

It was around the time of the Southern dispute that Peter Wilkinson made his passionate "break the unions" speech, about how he was going to "push them into that place" (strikes until the unions can no longer sustain them) and how it was going to be messy so everyone would have to have some patience. Let's be clear - this is his making. He wanted these long series of disruptive strikes, and the seemingly pointless "DCO" requirement was his way of provoking them.

Remember Peter Wilkinson didn't get his way with the Northern ITT - why the ITT was so different to the proposals in the consultation document. He also frequently changed his mind - he once spoke out against ticket barriers calling them expensive dumb machines and saying staff checking tickets is a much better approach!

Also worth remembering we don't know exactly what he said in his 'break the unions' speech but do know he apologised for it and that it was said in a room where he was trying to get Southern passengers on his side, opposed to it being an official announcement authorised by DfT.

 

[Carlisle]

It was around the time of the Southern dispute that Peter Wilkinson made his passionate "break the unions" speech, about how he was going to "push them into that place" (strikes until the unions can no longer sustain them) and how it was going to be messy so everyone would have to have some patience. Let's be clear - this is his making. He wanted these long series of disruptive strikes, and the seemingly pointless "DCO" requirement was his way of provoking them.

The ASLEF/RMT joint campaign against DOO begun before that speech, during the GWR dispute. The speech whilst stupidly inflammatory was largely irrelevant as the red lines backed by a willingness to ballot if necessary had already been announced by the unions prior to it .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

He should certainly be fired.

He has no business committing my time to his ideological struggle.

Can you also think of any people in high positions on the RMT side to whom your mention of an "ideological struggle" might apply to?

 

[Robertj21a]

It was around the time of the Southern dispute that Peter Wilkinson made his passionate "break the unions" speech, about how he was going to "push them into that place" (strikes until the unions can no longer sustain them) and how it was going to be messy so everyone would have to have some patience. Let's be clear - this is his making. He wanted these long series of disruptive strikes, and the seemingly pointless "DCO" requirement was his way of provoking them.

Not really sure that it matters too much nowadays what some idiot stupidly said some years ago. I can understand the RMT keep trotting out his stupid comments but it only tends to reinforce that the RMT also make silly comments (far more recently).
I know we've been over this hundreds of times but, once proved 'safe' (choose your own definition......) then the TOC management should be allowed to just get on with DOO, DCO or DOO+OBS. For a union to be bleating about what *may* happen (but probably won't) in years to come is utterly ridiculous.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I used to be a regular traveller on a weekend to the football. I now drive and may not go back to the train: despite the traffic, the door to door journey time is about the same on the outbound, with no walk in the rain from the station to the Etihad. Return trip I can be almost home before the train has left the station. I've found a parking space 7 minutes walk away that costs me £5 and I estimate my fuel at about £5; the car costs are overwise covered as it would be sitting idle at the station anyway.

That's a chunk of revenue that's not coming back. Still pee'd off about not getting any use out of my 3 year family railcard, though.

Same here, mainly a weekend Northern rail user, but not for football. My Dales Railcard has got very little use this year because of the strikes. I've got a pile of unused newspaper offer tokens and delay repay vouchers gathering dust too. Northern ought to be offering free extra months on people's railcards because of the strikes. I do support the guards' cause but this really is dragging on too long. I won't be renewing my railcard next year.

One of the trips I sometimes make with the newspaper offer is to Cleethorpes via Brigg. Now, because of the strikes, when was the last time a passenger train actually called at Brigg?

 

[MDB1images]

Yes they seem to have given up on this. Last year at the beginning of the dispute they ran replacement buses to at least provide a token service on shorter routes such as Preston to Ormskirk and Lancaster to Morecambe. I also don't understand how they get away with stopping running replacement buses on routes like Bolton to Manchester at 7pm when the buses would normally contracted until the end of the evening due to engineering. According to a Blackpool Transport driver it's not due to the availability of vehicles or drivers just that Northern won't pay.

Does anyone know why Northern have chosen to change tactic on this?

Not running long term and booked rail replacement Buses (in some cases) is a odd decision as these are services planned in advance to be manned by Coach and Bus drivers so would never be affected by a dispute.

 

[yorksrob]

Can you also think of any people in high positions on the RMT side to whom your mention of an "ideological struggle" might apply to?

I pay my taxes to the Government to provide public services. I don't pay them to the RMT.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I pay my taxes to the Government to provide public services. I don't pay them to the RMT.

Well then, whose action taken is stopping the provision of the said public services?

 

[td97]

It does surprise me that Northern don't attempt to reduce the level of disruption by hiring out their trains to EMT, TfW and Scotrail to increase capacity on strike-affected routes.

Also, do these strikes suit Northern management in terms of being able to reduce the driver training backlog that was prevalent at the May TT change? Obviously with ~30% of trains running, there are plenty of free drivers and trains available. Does much driver training happen on strike days?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They were hiring a couple of 150s to ATW.

 

[pemma]

They were hiring a couple of 150s to ATW.

There were also some ATW Chester managers acting as stand-in guards for Northern.

Today TfW Rail are turning all North Wales services around at Oxford Rd due to being 'having more units than usual in need of servicing' so could easily have used 2 x 150/2s loaned from Northern.

 

[pemma]

I pay my taxes to the Government to provide public services. I don't pay them to the RMT.

So what's the solution? A law which prevents certain public services not running during industrial action like Italy has? (For clarity it does not mean all public transport runs but commuter and airport train services are protected and must run even during industrial action.)

 

[pemma]

Does anyone know why Northern have chosen to change tactic on this?

Not running long term and booked rail replacement Buses (in some cases) is a odd decision as these are services planned in advance to be manned by Coach and Bus drivers so would never be affected by a dispute.

I think the idea is the driver who would have worked the late replacement bus services is instead working daytime replacement buses on another route.

 

[uww11x]

I think the idea is the driver who would have worked the late replacement bus services is instead working daytime replacement buses on another route.

Always drivers available for rail replacements! Always!

 

[Overspeed110]

Overtime agreement previously agreed had an expiry date and they want extra incentives to agree a new one.

Absolute rubbish.

 

[PHILIPE]

There were also some ATW Chester managers acting as stand-in guards for Northern.

Today TfW Rail are turning all North Wales services around at Oxford Rd due to being 'having more units than usual in need of servicing' so could easily have used 2 x 150/2s loaned from Northern.

TFW have had up to 30 units out of use at any one time during the last couple of weeks and, apart from the normal shortage, have had sets damaged by trees and debris following the storm and also, during the leaf fall season, units out through square wheels. There have been daily cancellations during this period but the north is suffering today as a result of deploying units in the south due to Rugby Wales v Scotland in Cardiff.

 

[pemma]

Absolute rubbish.

According to ASLEF's website the overtime arrangement ended on 29/09/2018 and for ex-FNW drivers Sundays aren't part of the working week, so how is what I said 'absolute rubbish'? http://www.aslef.org.uk/article.php?group_id=3451 If you have further details on why the overtime arrangement isn't being extended, feel free to share.

 

[beavercreek]

So far no approach has been made to ASLEF as to who opens the doors so DCO is not happening if at all soon.
It’s in the ASLEF charter that there is no extension to DOO, Southern was different as they already had it.

 

[Overspeed110]

You are wrong, but you just don't like being wrong, do you.

FYI there is a new RDW agreement in place and Northern are paying out thousands of pounds per day in RDW payments to drivers. I've been shown that one day alone last week at one of the big west depots the figure for drivers RDW payments was near 4K, thats one depot, for one day.

 

[pemma]

You are wrong, but you just don't like being wrong, do you.

FYI there is a new RDW agreement in place and Northern are paying out thousands of pounds per day in RDW payments to drivers. I've been shown that one day alone last week at one of the big west depots the figure for drivers RDW payments was near 4K, thats one depot, for one day.

Presumably that was in response to me, despite the lack of a quote.

I previously said

Overtime agreement previously agreed had an expiry date

The ASLEF website says the agreement ended 29/09/2018, so I must be correct on that part.

and they want extra incentives to agree a new one.

So did ASLEF agree to a RDW on favourable terms to the old one or have the conditions remained the same or are they more favourable to Northern? If it's the first option then I wasn't wrong as I didn't say a RDW agreement wasn't in place (originally when you told me I was talking absolute rubbish) I said they wanted extra incentives for a new one. If it's the second or third option then I'm only incorrect if ASLEF didn't try to get better terms, which would be very surprising for any trade union.

 

[beavercreek]

I can confirm there is a RDW agreement as I did one myself last week.
The agreement is into next year subject to an agreement regarding future T&Cs.
Some of this is signed off already.

 

[Carlisle]

It’s in the ASLEF charter that there is no extension to DOO,

Will Govt /DFT/northern, deem that a legitimate or acceptable reason to suspend or cancel any proposals?

 

[Tomnick]

Also worth remembering we don't know exactly what he said in his 'break the unions' speech but do know he apologised for it and that it was said in a room where he was trying to get Southern passengers on his side, opposed to it being an official announcement authorised by DfT.

He is the DfT. He's pretty much the top man, far more than a mere representative conveying someone else's policy. A subtle difference maybe, but he didn't apologise for his comments, only for the offence caused by them (unsurprising, considering that he referred to LUL drivers as "muppets").

The ASLEF/RMT joint campaign against DOO begun before that speech, during the GWR dispute. The speech whilst stupidly inflammatory was largely irrelevant as the red lines backed by a willingness to ballot if necessary had already been announced by the unions prior to it .

The union's position has been clear for some time, yes, but it's the DfT who have pushed them into a position where a ballot is inevitable, and Peter Wilkinson's comments show that he was not only fully aware that his chosen course of action would result in extensive and disruptive industrial action, but that he seemed to be relishing the prospect. It seems clear to me that this is about "breaking the unions" far more than it's about introducing a DCO concept with few benefits.

I know we've been over this hundreds of times but, once proved 'safe' (choose your own definition......) then the TOC management should be allowed to just get on with DOO, DCO or DOO+OBS. For a union to be bleating about what *may* happen (but probably won't) in years to come is utterly ridiculous.

If "safe" is a conclusion resulting from a risk assessment process that has an element of human error in it (as it must) and that the risk of human error is increased (as I'm sure that it must be), then when it goes wrong you can be certain that the focus is going to be on the human who made the error. Maybe this strand of the argument is more relevant to ASLEF, but it's perfectly reasonable for them to "bleat" about something that could put one of their members in prison or, at least, through a lengthy court case.

 

[SC43090]

They've said they're fighting for every train to have a safety critical guard on board, no ifs no buts and there's even been reports the RMT at Northern are unwilling to even accept a guard on board with door duties transferred to the driver, despite being willing to accept that elsewhere. The fact that some passengers want staff to be more visible than at present suggests they don't want things to remain as they are.

Incidentally there's currently another survey being undertaken asking people at stations (including staff) if they want a guaranteed guard on board and services cancelled if they are unavailable or a second person booked to be on the train but the train running without them in an emergency only. The survey is still being undertaken but so far around 75% prefer the latter.

Iv'e not seen any surveys at Railway stations asking the passengers what they would like?????

If i was asked i would give them my answer....... We need the Guard to stay as the guard....

I also support the current dispute because CCTV doesn't see everything as iv'e been witness to incidents on trains which have gone to court for only the accused to change there minds from Not Guilty to Guilty on the day of the court case......

What happens if passengers are on a train & the driver is taken ill or passes away & there is nobody else on the train who can take charge its not as if the public can gain access to drivers cab to find out what happened.......

If there's no guard or no second member of staff on the train & the train turns up at an unstaffed station & a wheel chair passenger wants to get on does it mean the driver as to put the ramp down which will delay the train.....

I there is a CCTV monitor in the drivers cab & there's an out break of trouble the driver looking at the CCTV to see whats going on & goes passed a signal at red the thought at what might happen are unbearable....

Its about time that Failing Grayling & the DFT Muppets got there fingers out of this dispute & let Northern & RMT come to some settlement....

We need the guard to stay

SC43090

 

[Darandio]

What happens if passengers are on a train & the driver is taken ill or passes away & there is nobody else on the train who can take charge its not as if the public can gain access to drivers cab to find out what happened.......

If there's no guard or no second member of staff on the train & the train turns up at an unstaffed station & a wheel chair passenger wants to get on does it mean the driver as to put the ramp down which will delay the train.....

I there is a CCTV monitor in the drivers cab & there's an out break of trouble the driver looking at the CCTV to see whats going on & goes passed a signal at red the thought at what might happen are unbearable....

Yet DOO has already been around for decades in other parts of the country. You are talking here as if these could be new scenarios that might be faced, they've been there as a potential issue for years.

 

[Carlisle]

It seems clear to me that this is about "breaking the unions" far more than it's about introducing a DCO concept with few benefits.
.

Id think hardly any want to break the unions, most just want them to put a lot more effort into negotiations before reverting to strikes ,it’s both the industry and unions fault this ballot first and talk later culture had been allowed to flourish and it really needs to change of rail is to recover fully

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't think anyone at the DfT thought they could 'break' the unions, in the sense of doing away with them. I do think they wanted to break what he saw as a stranglehold where similar commuter train services in one area of the South East had just a driver but the Southern had a guard as well as the driver. I believe he was speaking in Croydon at the time and so was referring to SN services. We must remember that Wilkinson is just a civil servant so can only promote what his SoS tells him to. The McNulty report had been accepted by the government, so that its implementation was to be sought by Wilkinson when negotiating new franchises.

The implementation depends on the new technology being available and the necessary extra manning at stations. It can never be implemented on Northern unless that is done and the route concerned is fully barriered at stations (which means manned), or that an 'OBS' person is on every train to enforce revenue protection, AIUI.

I don't think the government thinks it can 'break the unions'. In the case of the RMT, it would appear to an outsider like me that they are trying to do this very well themselves.

 

[pemma]

Iv'e not seen any surveys at Railway stations asking the passengers what they would like?????

Millions of people travel by train every day, no survey can ask everyone who ever travels by train what they want. The Passenger/Transport Focus ones have been happening for years and occur multiple times every year and I've never been asked to contribute. All passenger surveys use a representative sample opposed to asking everyone.

I also support the current dispute because CCTV doesn't see everything as iv'e been witness to incidents on trains which have gone to court for only the accused to change there minds from Not Guilty to Guilty on the day of the court case......

How is that of any relevance to the dispute or this thread? Guards are not God like creations who see and hear everything on a train and if they do see something if they say one thing and someone else says something else then the guard's/staff member's account will be dismissed unless there's further evidence.