Arriva Rail North DOO

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Andrew32, 27 Oct 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Tomnick

    Tomnick Established Member

    Messages:
    5,253
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2005
    The difficulty is how you assess how many lives you expect to be lost as a result of DOO implementation. It's a wholly theoretical exercise (yes, I know that's the basis for determining spending on projects in a lot of cases). Remember, though, that we're supposedly just talking about the additional cost of employing safety-critical guards (and maintaining their competency etc.) over the cost of employing someone who isn't safety-critical, which is a much lower cost to have to justify.
     
  2. Andyh82

    Andyh82 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,846
    Joined:
    19 May 2014
    What I can’t understand is what is in it for Arriva. Back in the days when the regional news used to cover the strikes, that Geordie women who was the spokesperson used to just say something about them modernising the railways. It was never been mentioned that it’s in the franchise agreement set by the government.

    Many people think it is all Arriva’s doing, and they should be stripped of the franchise, yet Arriva don’t seem to mind their reputation being ruined for something that wasn’t even their decision.
     
  3. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

    Messages:
    3,131
    Joined:
    26 Aug 2012
    True. but the main problem is that until the recent DOO strikes begun that strategy had proved very successful for their TOC and LU membersip over a long period, explaining why the strikes may still be fairly well supported

    This style appears to have been far less effective in other fully privatised industries where RMT represents workers, presumably that’s down to competition and being easier to just shut down if industrial relations deteriorate really badly for a very lengthy period.
     
    Last edited: 4 Nov 2018
  4. Confused52

    Confused52 Member

    Messages:
    127
    Joined:
    5 Aug 2018
    I fear that is the debate if you only see the RMT side of the dispute. If you look at the DfT side then there needs to be flexibility to run without a guard on SUITABLE routes in the event that a guard is not available. The thin edge of the wedge argument is often used against the TOCs but the reality is that it works both ways and the need for a guaranteed safety critical guard is, as everyone knows, a major plank of the RMT's power. That so many acquiesce to a possible union abuse whilst railing against that by the TOC shows a user bias on this site which is not clearly in the passenger's favour.
     
  5. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

    Messages:
    6,130
    Joined:
    22 Sep 2013
    We're making good progress, but not quite on the same wavelength.....

    My interpretation of flexibility would be far wider than what you are suggesting. I wasn't thinking of just more routes for a guard to do, I would assume that Arriva would be looking for the recognition that guards can also do certain station/ticket duties and work more in a pure customer facing/OBS role as and when required. They need to use all their staff as cost effectively as possible and a guard on every train (regardless of circumstances) seems quite inefficient to me.
    I'm not sure but I thought the arrangements at Scotrail (?) already levied a fine on the TOC if specific conditions were not met.
     
    Last edited: 4 Nov 2018
  6. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

    Messages:
    30,637
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    @SC43090's argument was if an incident happened on a guarded service, the guard would turn up in court and give evidence leading to a conviction while on a DOO service CCTV would be used and the conviction, which is why I objected to it. He needs to rethink his whole argument as many of the reasons given for retaining the guard relate to having a visible staffing presence, which is easier to have if the second person of staff has fewer duties.
     
  7. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

    Messages:
    30,637
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    The Geordie woman you mention was Sharon Keith who was quietly moved to another position in the Arriva Group due to the area of the franchise she was responsible for being the area worst affected by the May 2018 timetable change.
     
  8. coxxy

    coxxy Member

    Messages:
    227
    Joined:
    16 Aug 2013
    Pretty sure the move was announced long before the May Timetable change to be fair
     
  9. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

    Messages:
    3,131
    Joined:
    26 Aug 2012
    Shame as staff I knew claimed she was one of the more approachable members of senior management
     
  10. marcouk2

    marcouk2 Member

    Messages:
    188
    Joined:
    24 Jan 2012
    Because regardless of which way it ends up they need the DfT on their side, either they get the franchise agreement changed so needing the DfTs to agree to that or they push on with it and end up with ASLEF striking as well and need the DfT to back them up when no Northern services run at all on strike days.
     
  11. Tomnick

    Tomnick Established Member

    Messages:
    5,253
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2005
    I agree that there's a benefit to having more flexibility. However, that benefit is going to be small in most cases - as I've said, the number of trains cancelled for the lack of a guard is tiny at properly-staffed TOCs. Far more trains have been cancelled as a result of this industrial action than would've been cancelled in - probably - my lifetime otherwise. Where I work, most guards sign everywhere that the depot goes (an extensive route card) very quickly - yes, there's a relatively small cost to that route learning, of course, but it's nowhere near as big a constraint as drivers' route knowledge (where very few sign everywhere and many don't even sign all routes in their link).

    Maybe. I've already said that there's perhaps a better (or less worse...) case for DOO on suburban routes with a more intensive service, where it's more efficient to staff stations from start to finish, but Northern seem not to be going down that road.

    My understanding of the Strathclyde agreement is that the TOC is only fined if an inspector boards a train and finds that there's no TE (or it fails any of the other criteria), which is better than nothing at least.
     
  12. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

    Messages:
    1,151
    Joined:
    18 Jul 2015
    Presumably Northern would have to employ fewer spare conductors if they knew that a guard falling ill/being delayed on another service wouldn't mean a cancellation? i.e. currently they employ enough guards to cover all diagrams, plus a number spare (no idea what number, any ideas?) for cover, whereas there is no reason for them to pay for guards to be used as spares. It also means that they could cope with sudden increases in supply and demand for guards, e.g. if there is a bug going round, or if there are more services following a timetable change.
     
  13. Tomnick

    Tomnick Established Member

    Messages:
    5,253
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2005
    Well, they wouldn't have to employ so many if they weren't really that bothered about providing a second member of staff on every service that should have one. They don't employ enough as it is though, so there's a reliance on overtime to some extent to cover work - so straight away, you're probably going to have services uncovered (why would you pay overtime, possibly at an enhanced rate, to cover work that doesn't really need covering?). Yes, they will (or should!) have some sort of service recovery provision for things going amiss on the day (as opposed to general spare capacity, which is intended primarily to cover annual leave, sickness and other things that take folk off the roster, as opposed to things going amiss on the day) -but surely disruption is when passengers would value a staff presence on the train more than any other time?
     
  14. a_c_skinner

    a_c_skinner Established Member

    Messages:
    1,397
    Joined:
    21 Jun 2013
    It is pretty clear (actually abundantly obvious) that continued IA at present intensity will not win this dispute for the RMT. They need another tactic or another position. Northern will simply continue to ignore the IA and perhaps devise ways to attempt to mitigate it.
     
  15. trainophile

    trainophile Established Member

    Messages:
    4,267
    Joined:
    28 Oct 2010
    Location:
    Stuck here :(
    So if someone buys a ticket for Saturday on Northern, which are still on sale, and the train is cancelled or disrupted so they miss an onward connection, will Northern refund the relevant tickets? And delay repay for the overall lateness of arrival at final destination?
     
  16. 387star

    387star On Moderation

    Messages:
    5,839
    Joined:
    16 Nov 2009
    More strikes when the sn 313s go I'd imagine ?
     
  17. Iskra

    Iskra Established Member

    Messages:
    2,767
    Joined:
    11 Jun 2014
    Location:
    Chapeltown, Sheffield
    I don't think so. There is a pre-announced strike timetable which replaces the usual one.
     
  18. woodmally

    woodmally Member

    Messages:
    210
    Joined:
    16 Mar 2018
    I agree the chance that RMT have is continuous strike action till its resolved. However the members wont want it and/or afford it. The only other way is if Aslef are brought on board but as a poster said earlier they dont have any truck with the RMT. And the other option ie waiting for Aslef to strike is not going to happen now as they wont temporarily back down.
     
  19. trainophile

    trainophile Established Member

    Messages:
    4,267
    Joined:
    28 Oct 2010
    Location:
    Stuck here :(
    So it's safe to assume that a Northern train for Saturday 1st December currently showing on any booking website will actually run?
     
  20. Wychwood93

    Wychwood93 Member

    Messages:
    342
    Joined:
    25 Jan 2018
    Location:
    Burton. Dorset.
    During disruption all PAX want is a rough idea of what is going on. Very, very unlikely nowadays to have a member of staff go through the train to answer questions. Hopefully they will have already done the p.a bit. As with LU, the latter could be done by the driver. In other circumstances a full and standing train could have one member of on-board staff per coach and you still would not see them! Apologies to those that go the final mile - and there are a lot who do. As former staff I have more of an appreciation of what is happening than many/most of the PAX and generally take a slightly different view.
     
  21. Tomnick

    Tomnick Established Member

    Messages:
    5,253
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2005
    If the guard's not going through the train to answer questions when it's all going wrong, then why are they being allowed to get away with that? The driver's unlikely to be making PA announcements when they're trying to fix the train or dealing with degraded working. Of course it's always going to be a struggle on a full and standing train, but that doesn't mean that the Guard's useless.
     
  22. northernchris

    northernchris Member

    Messages:
    1,035
    Joined:
    24 Jul 2011
    This is true, I suspect Northern management are now aware the Saturday strikes are to continue indefinitely so can look to plan in advance. Problem is, if the RMT were to suspend strikes, even just for the Christmas period, it gives the impression they are backing down so they need to continue until a break from deadlock is reached. From reading the press releases of both the RMT and Northern, they both state they are available for talks, so it shouldn't be that hard to arrange some meetings
     
  23. a_c_skinner

    a_c_skinner Established Member

    Messages:
    1,397
    Joined:
    21 Jun 2013
    Both sides always say they want to talk in strikes, both sides then always say they won't talk while the other side insists on preconditions. The ball is in the RMT's court because Northern are sitting it out.
     
  24. Wychwood93

    Wychwood93 Member

    Messages:
    342
    Joined:
    25 Jan 2018
    Location:
    Burton. Dorset.
    I did not say a guard, or perhaps an OBS, was useless - more that, in many cases, it depends on the individual. All staff are trained the same way, which does not mean they will act/react in the same way. Human nature.
     
  25. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

    Messages:
    22,249
    Joined:
    6 Aug 2009
    Location:
    Yorks
    As I said earlier, they've backed themselves into a corner where they have to continue striking to save face.
     
  26. Iskra

    Iskra Established Member

    Messages:
    2,767
    Joined:
    11 Jun 2014
    Location:
    Chapeltown, Sheffield
    No absolutely not. They publish the amended timetable in the week running up to the Saturday strike day. You are better assuming there are no trains.
     
  27. Tomnick

    Tomnick Established Member

    Messages:
    5,253
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2005
    I suppose so. Either way, someone who is there is generally going to be more use than someone who isn’t!
     
  28. trainophile

    trainophile Established Member

    Messages:
    4,267
    Joined:
    28 Oct 2010
    Location:
    Stuck here :(
    Which makes a mockery of trying to plan a journey further than a week ahead, if anything Northern is involved. By the time they release the revised timetables, all the Advance tickets on connecting services will have gone.

    I have had to change my plans and spend a Friday night in Lancaster as I couldn't be sure of getting there from Morecambe on the Saturday morning. As it is I got the last "cheap" Lancaster to Crewe ticket on the train I wanted. There will be people in a similar situation who don't realise that they may hit a problem when they try to travel. At the very least they should publish their cancellations a few weeks ahead.
     
  29. Iskra

    Iskra Established Member

    Messages:
    2,767
    Joined:
    11 Jun 2014
    Location:
    Chapeltown, Sheffield
    I agree completely. You are lucky though. There are plentiful taxi, bus and even walking opportunities between Morecambe and Lancaster. Imagine living somewhere isolated and entirely reliant on Northern rail.
     
  30. Wychwood93

    Wychwood93 Member

    Messages:
    342
    Joined:
    25 Jan 2018
    Location:
    Burton. Dorset.
    The latter very hard to do. Here in SWR world the strike for the 10th November was called off towards the end of last week - many customers may, having gathered there was one, have made alternative plans and ended up more inconvenienced only to hear the strike was off. It works both ways. The RMT could, god forbid, use this as an alternative strategy and really, what's the word? - annoy folk. I knew I would not swear!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page