Arriva Rail North DOO

[trainophile]

Yep that would really annoy people off!

 

[agbrs_Jack]

when no Northern services run at all on strike days.

That'll be interesting, not that I'll be able to tell, as I already have no services on strike days :/

 

[Kite159]

As time goes on, the lines which used to get an half hourly service on strike days will drop to hourly, those on hourly will drop to two hourly or even drop out completely with maybe a replacement bus if they are lucky.

I wonder if the likes of St Helen's Junction/Lea Green have seen an increase of passengers with folk using those stations as railheads due to being served by TPE?

 

[Andyh82]

I’m guessing the level of service provided will go down from 30% over the next few weeks as those managers and office staff will want to go Christmas shopping themselves rather than working every Saturday.

 

[B&I]

Presumably Northern would have to employ fewer spare conductors if they knew that a guard falling ill/being delayed on another service wouldn't mean a cancellation? i.e. currently they employ enough guards to cover all diagrams, plus a number spare (no idea what number, any ideas?) for cover, whereas there is no reason for them to pay for guards to be used as spares. It also means that they could cope with sudden increases in supply and demand for guards, e.g. if there is a bug going round, or if there are more services following a timetable change.

I would be extremely surprised to hear that Northern employ any 'spare' guards.

Of course, many of the 'due to unavailability of train crew member' cancellations and delays could be eliminated if Northern stopped moving staff around at apparent random during their shifts

 

[B&I]

It is pretty clear (actually abundantly obvious) that continued IA at present intensity will not win this dispute for the RMT. They need another tactic or another position. Northern will simply continue to ignore the IA and perhaps devise ways to attempt to mitigate it.

Northern do not care about mitigating the effects of strikes, as that would only benefit passengers. As can be seen from their non-strike day service, passengers are very low on their list of priorities. Northern doesn't really care what happens so long as the government continues to keep it in the appropriate financial state.

 

[woodmally]

This is true, I suspect Northern management are now aware the Saturday strikes are to continue indefinitely so can look to plan in advance. Problem is, if the RMT were to suspend strikes, even just for the Christmas period, it gives the impression they are backing down so they need to continue until a break from deadlock is reached. From reading the press releases of both the RMT and Northern, they both state they are available for talks, so it shouldn't be that hard to arrange some meetings

They wont talk as there is nothing to discuss. The franchise agreement, in Northerns opinion means that they have to implement DOO. RMT wont accept DOO hence the deadlock. So whats the point in talking just wait till DOO gets implemented and ride out these strikes.

 

[a_c_skinner]

IS the franchise commitment to DOO or to single manning of trains? Does it prohibit a second person in any particular role?

 

[Tomnick]

They wont talk as there is nothing to discuss. The franchise agreement, in Northerns opinion means that they have to implement DOO. RMT wont accept DOO hence the deadlock. So whats the point in talking just wait till DOO gets implemented and ride out these strikes.

The news today is that Northern are seeking renegotiation of the terms of their franchise. I’d like to think that the “DCO” requirement will at least be discussed.

DOO won’t be implemented until ASLEF have been consulted, at which point things will almost certainly get much, much worse.

IS the franchise commitment to DOO or to single manning of trains? Does it prohibit a second person in any particular role?

It requires a proportion of mileage to be worked under the driver’s sole operational control - it doesn’t prohibit a second person in a non-operational role, but I think an absolute guarantee of a second person (without which the train couldn’t run) might not be acceptable under the current franchise agreement.

 

[scrapy]

I would be extremely surprised to hear that Northern employ any 'spare' guards.

Of course, many of the 'due to unavailability of train crew member' cancellations and delays could be eliminated if Northern stopped moving staff around at apparent random during their shifts

I've seen some Northern traincrew diagrams recently and they are terrible. For example Manchester Airport to Blackpool in 1 hour 40 minutes may have 4 different sets of crew with changes at Oxford Rd, Wigan and Preston. Each of these crew may arrive on different services into the respective stations sometimes with less connection time than is required for a passenger. It's no wonder they are often delayed. Rather than trying to keep drivers and guards together to minimise disruption the diagrams are computer generated to use the fewest number of train crew possible without any regard for reliability. You often then get train crew missing pass rides because they only had a few minutes to catch them, spiralling into major delays and cancellations.

 

[Confused52]

That suggests the software is not up to the mark. It is also why one would expect them to need multiple iterations to iron out the lack of reliability. Northern already told the Select Committee they didn't have time to do the required iterations before May. Then they must have done it quickly to get to the Emergency Timetables which surely will have been sub-optimal. So how often have the diagrams been updated since the main re-instatement of services at the end of summer? I hope they are not just waiting to do it properly for December given that NR and TfN seem to be still deliberating about how to "fix" the Castlefield corridor mess. The iterations are supposed to get the reliability back after the computer decides, if that is not working they need different software, I expect the alternative which is experience went out of the door.

 

[woodmally]

The news today is that Northern are seeking renegotiation of the terms of their franchise. I’d like to think that the “DCO” requirement will at least be discussed.

DOO won’t be implemented until ASLEF have been consulted, at which point things will almost certainly get much, much worse.

It requires a proportion of mileage to be worked under the driver’s sole operational control - it doesn’t prohibit a second person in a non-operational role, but I think an absolute guarantee of a second person (without which the train couldn’t run) might not be acceptable under the current franchise agreement.

Well if they can renegotiate the agreement then I will eat my hat and say that the RMT have done it! I will stand corrected and say sorry I was wrong. As an aside if they dont succed then that boils down to my original point. If they dont do it why didnt the RMT just wait till Aslef were consulted and strike then. It would provide more weight.

 

[scrapy]

Well if they can renegotiate the agreement then I will eat my hat and say that the RMT have done it! I will stand corrected and say sorry I was wrong. As an aside if they dont succed then that boils down to my original point. If they dont do it why didnt the RMT just wait till Aslef were consulted and strike then. It would provide more weight.

Because they believe they took action too late on Southern and that ended badly.

 

[pemma]

Because they believe they took action too late on Southern and that ended badly.

Whereas the action on Northern has been a huge success - around 40 strike dates and still Northern, DfT and TfN aren't considering changing the franchise clause which the RMT doesn't like. :roll:

 

[woodmally]

Whereas the action on Northern has been a huge success - around 40 strike dates and still Northern, DfT and TfN aren't considering changing the franchise clause which the RMT doesn't like. :roll:

I would have said that last week but someone on here is saying thats precisely what Northern are planning to do. I'd be interested to know if it succeeds or not.

 

[B&I]

I've seen some Northern traincrew diagrams recently and they are terrible. For example Manchester Airport to Blackpool in 1 hour 40 minutes may have 4 different sets of crew with changes at Oxford Rd, Wigan and Preston. Each of these crew may arrive on different services into the respective stations sometimes with less connection time than is required for a passenger. It's no wonder they are often delayed. Rather than trying to keep drivers and guards together to minimise disruption the diagrams are computer generated to use the fewest number of train crew possible without any regard for reliability. You often then get train crew missing pass rides because they only had a few minutes to catch them, spiralling into major delays and cancellations.

That is an absolutely numb-nutted way to run a railway. How can anyone have any sympathy for them when they make rods for their own backs like this ?

 

[Starmill]

Of course, many of the 'due to unavailability of train crew member' cancellations and delays could be eliminated if Northern stopped moving staff around at apparent random during their shifts

This sounds like a load of rubbish to me?

Traincrew diagrams that are 'at random' sound like something that does not exist.

 

[pemma]

I've seen some Northern traincrew diagrams recently and they are terrible. For example Manchester Airport to Blackpool in 1 hour 40 minutes may have 4 different sets of crew with changes at Oxford Rd, Wigan and Preston. Each of these crew may arrive on different services into the respective stations sometimes with less connection time than is required for a passenger. It's no wonder they are often delayed. Rather than trying to keep drivers and guards together to minimise disruption the diagrams are computer generated to use the fewest number of train crew possible without any regard for reliability. You often then get train crew missing pass rides because they only had a few minutes to catch them, spiralling into major delays and cancellations.

Presumably part of the problem with Manchester Airport to Blackpool via Wigan is that it's a temporary service and Northern would have planned for Blackpool services going via Bolton and Cumbria services going via Wigan. So, for instance, do the Buxton crews who sign Blackpool also sign 319s and the Wigan route?

 

[geoffk]

Please tell me why Buxton crews sign Blackpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please tell me why Buxton crews sign Blackpool.

To avoid a central Manchester crew change on the through service? Seems sensible to me. We need to stop all central Manchester crew changes on services using Castlefield.

 

[geoffk]

To avoid a central Manchester crew change on the through service? Seems sensible to me. We need to stop all central Manchester crew changes on services using Castlefield.

Yes, but there are no through trains from Buxton to Blackpool. Buxtons go to Piccadilly. However, there is supposed to be a Hazel Grove - Blackpool service next year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but there are no through trains from Buxton to Blackpool. Buxtons go to Piccadilly. However, there is supposed to be a Hazel Grove - Blackpool service next year.

There used to be - this might be why.

 

[Carlisle]

I wonder if the Government could pull a coup here by proposing a substantial extension of the CAF order to turn it into a full fleet replacement,
..

That would be the best outcome of any renegotiated deal for passengers,

 

[WYSH]

At the current rate these strikes will presumably have a big impact on local northern town high streets on the run up to Christmas. I for one will be doing my shopping online this year for the first time rather than on the high street because of the strikes.

 

[Dr Hoo]

At the current rate these strikes will presumably have a big impact on local northern town high streets on the run up to Christmas. I for one will be doing my shopping online this year for the first time rather than on the high street because of the strikes.

Yep! Did mine on line for the first time last week. That’s saved hours trekking round Meadowhall quite apart from a few journeys with Northern.

 

[B&I]

This sounds like a load of rubbish to me?

Traincrew diagrams that are 'at random' sound like something that does not exist.

That's why I said 'at apparent random'. Since I wrote this, it has been clarified that crews seem to be allocated by computer, so like many other things done by computer these days, the real-life effect is probably not far short of being at random

 

[Wychwood93]

That's why I said 'at apparent random'. Since I wrote this, it has been clarified that crews seem to be allocated by computer, so like many other things done by computer these days, the real-life effect is probably not fae short of being at random

Not only these days. In a non-railway job some 40 years ago the two members dealing with the all important payroll stuff were replaced by a computer and two additional staff. Work that out!

 

[43094]

To be fair, they're by no means the only company to rely too heavily on computer software....

It *can* improve things, but only when combined with human input to reflect 'the real world'.

Unfortunately, when you get a 'base cost' prioritised at the experience of operational experience, things like the above can happen... the best solutions for a company find room for both.

 

[HH]

With Computers there's a long-standing acronym, GIGO, which stands for Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Left to its own devices, any diagramming software will produce rubbish; the skill is in managing the software. There are some very good train crew diagrammers out there; there are some who are not so good. But sometimes the problems are not down to them - there's the question of "who signs what?", for instance - and that is often down to long-standing local agreements, rather than a logical split. And it's not just, "Depot A can't go there", but also "Depot B has to go there", so that work has to be shoe-horned in to keep up Route Knowledge.

I don't know Northern, but my point is, you shouldn't just assume that these problems are caused by incompetent planners.

 

[B&I]

With Computers there's a long-standing acronym, GIGO, which stands for Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Left to its own devices, any diagramming software will produce rubbish; the skill is in managing the software. There are some very good train crew diagrammers out there; there are some who are not so good. But sometimes the problems are not down to them - there's the question of "who signs what?", for instance - and that is often down to long-standing local agreements, rather than a logical split. And it's not just, "Depot A can't go there", but also "Depot B has to go there", so that work has to be shoe-horned in to keep up Route Knowledge.

I don't know Northern, but my point is, you shouldn't just assume that these problems are caused by incompetent planners.

You're entirely right that, when people like me rail against computers, what we are really having a go at is the hubris that treats computers as some form of autonomous life which can outthink humans, rather than as a way of processing and implementing the decisions and inputs provided by humans in the first place. However, this same hubris (allied with the ever-present desire of a small number of people to increase their share of the world's wealth at the expense of everyone else) also maintains that we can use computers to replace humans with brains and experience. Hence a world where less and less actually functions properly