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Arriva Rail North DOO

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Kite159

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Anybody want a laugh at the latest tactic being deployed by the RMT? A petition!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/231479/

Considering I've been on a train which changed guards on route (pretty sure it was something like a Scarborough - Sheffield service) where the outgoing guard didn't tell the new guard there was a wheelchair on board for Goole guard was a back cab resident so the poor lady was overcarried to Sheffield as there was nobody at Goole to put the ramp down for her.
So it isn't just DOO trains where it is a problem.

(And not to mention the wording makes it sound like its those evil money grabbing foreign owned companies pushing through the changes when the bulk of the existing DOO areas were formed during British Rail?)
 
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johntea

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With Computers there's a long-standing acronym, GIGO, which stands for Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Left to its own devices, any diagramming software will produce rubbish; the skill is in managing the software. There are some very good train crew diagrammers out there; there are some who are not so good. But sometimes the problems are not down to them - there's the question of "who signs what?", for instance - and that is often down to long-standing local agreements, rather than a logical split. And it's not just, "Depot A can't go there", but also "Depot B has to go there", so that work has to be shoe-horned in to keep up Route Knowledge.

I don't know Northern, but my point is, you shouldn't just assume that these problems are caused by incompetent planners.

There are also quite a lot of 'picnics' in IT!

I work IT support in a hospital and the surgeons are brilliant at cutting people open and hopefully putting them back together again afterwards, but as for operating on a computer... :D
 

superkev

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Both sides seem content to continue with the current Saturday strikes forever. Whatever the rights and wrongs perhaps it's about time things where brought to a head with perhaps a total strike and see who gives in first.
K
 

Killingworth

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It's a shame that a nice gesture will be of no use on many lines, and of limited use on most lines this Saturday.
2018-11-07.png
 

Starmill

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Both sides seem content to continue with the current Saturday strikes forever. Whatever the rights and wrongs perhaps it's about time things where brought to a head with perhaps a total strike and see who gives in first.
K
It does seem that the current dispute's 35 days of action has resulted in far more 'damage', whether you consider that to be damage to passenger safety, to the industry financial position, the reputation of the company or owning group, the value of the mode to society as a whole and the wider economic impacts, than decades worth of operation of the trains in line with the franchise agreement as it stands. Even though it's not clear still what Northern's proposals are, because they haven't said.
 

Robertj21a

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It does seem that the current dispute's 35 days of action has resulted in far more 'damage', whether you consider that to be damage to passenger safety, to the industry financial position, the reputation of the company or owning group, the value of the mode to society as a whole and the wider economic impacts, than decades worth of operation of the trains in line with the franchise agreement as it stands. Even though it's not clear still what Northern's proposals are, because they haven't said.


Is there really much point in Arriva bothering to say anything about their proposals when the RMT has been continually bringing staff out on strike regardless ?.

Perhaps if the RMT suspended their current silliness it might be possible for Arriva to progress matters.
 

yorksrob

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Is there really much point in Arriva bothering to say anything about their proposals when the RMT has been continually bringing staff out on strike regardless ?.

Perhaps if the RMT suspended their current silliness it might be possible for Arriva to progress matters.

I would certainly like to know what both sides positions are so that I can get some idea of who is being reasonable.

At present, we've heard from the Northern Rail side that they're interested in an agreement with a second person guaranteed on every train, but the RMT won't budge from full guard operation of doors.

Contrarily, we've heard from the RMT that they're willing to negotiatiate around a second guaranteed person, but Northern insist on being able to run trains without a second person on board "in extremis".

Someone's telling porky pies.
 

CN75

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It does seem that the current dispute's 35 days of action has resulted in far more 'damage', whether you consider that to be damage to passenger safety, to the industry financial position, the reputation of the company or owning group, the value of the mode to society as a whole and the wider economic impacts, than decades worth of operation of the trains in line with the franchise agreement as it stands. Even though it's not clear still what Northern's proposals are, because they haven't said.

Northern, for the RMT and ASLEF, always was ‘the big one’ and to an extent all the other guards and their disputes aligned up with Northern, regardless of benefit for them.

The damage should be short lived. Note that the Southern brand has recovered somewhat and is more punctual than it has been in years. GTR recorded increased passenger numbers despite all the problems in the last couple of years. After the current stalemate passes - which will be as soon as Arriva force ASLEF’s hand - Northern gets a complete fleet renewal, you’d expect some staff turnover which should improve morale, and plenty of new and existing drivers on more money. Improving performance always improves TOCs and for Northern the only way will be up. However the present stalemate has little chance of resolving quickly.

Is there really much point in Arriva bothering to say anything about their proposals when the RMT has been continually bringing staff out on strike regardless ?.

Perhaps if the RMT suspended their current silliness it might be possible for Arriva to progress matters.

It’s easy to forget how much more attention the media gave the rail industry when the first GTR dispute was at its peak. Presumably the other TOCs have learned from the way it was all played out through the media. Northern doesn’t have anything to gain from setting out any detailed plans until they have the trains and drivers all in place to bring those plans in. Attempting to lay out plans publically would just leave them with more aspects for the unions and their supporters to pick at piece by piece and give Arriva more grief over.

Here is the RMT’s latest letter to Northern members off their website, which shows that after more than a year they have at least got to the central conundrum.

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – ARRIVA RAIL NORTH
Dear Colleague,

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – ARRIVA RAIL NORTH

You will have now received correspondence from David Brown, Managing Director, Northern, headed ‘Ongoing Strikes’ which is very selective in the information it provides to say the least. I believe that my letter to him dated 16th October 2018, which was included in the correspondence sent to you, is quite clear and concise. For some reason Northern do not.

I have, therefore, again written to the company and so there can be no confusion or doubt as to what the Union is asking I reproduce it below. When you read my letter to him you will see that even Northern should be able to answer the question posed.

I will of course advise you of the company’s response once received.

NO TO DOO
SUPPORT THE ACTION
SUPPORT YOUR COLLEAGUES


Yours sincerely,

Mick Cash
General Secretary

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

“Letter to David Brown - ARN

Our Ref: BR2/0146

6th November 2018

Dear David,

Role of the Guard & Extension of DOO – Arriva Rail North

I understand that you have been raising concerns that the union has not responded to your request for further discussions – discussions which you have made conditional on the union calling off industrial action.

I have checked my records and can confirm that you did send a letter dated 19th October which offered little in dealing with the issues at the heart of this dispute. You state quite rightly that the dispute covers two issues the role of the guard and extension of driver only operation. You have tried to split hairs by saying that DCO is different from DOO.

You have also accused the union of changing our minds on this issue. That is not correct the union has from day one made it quite clear that our dispute is about ensuring that every train currently run by Northern Rail continues to be operated with second safety critical conductor on board carrying out the full range of operational duties.

For the record we have achieved settlements elsewhere that have ensured no extension of DOO, and that trains currently running with a Conductor will continue to run with a safety critical Conductor undertaking a full range of operational duties.

Arriva Rail North has signed up to a contract with Transport for the North and the Department for Transport that states you intend to run at 50% of the services without that commitment. Worse than that you have indicated to my representatives during discussions that you would like to run 100% of services in that mode of operation.

You have voiced to us that your hands are tied in that you have committed to your lords and masters to deliver DCO. We have offered to meet with you and the DfT to see if that contractual commitment could be set aside to allow meaningful discussions to resolve the dispute. You have refused on the grounds that the DfT are your client and you have made a contractual commitment to them.

So here is the problem. You give the impression that our talks could be meaningful yet that cannot happen as you cannot offer the union a deal. If you are committed to delivering the contractual commitment how can we have meaningful discussions? The only way progress can be made is if you go back to your clients and seek their permission to withdraw the contractual commitment to introduce at least 50% of services in DCO mode

My question to you is will you do that?

I await your response.”

Ends
 
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yorksrob

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Northern, for the RMT and ASLEF, always was ‘the big one’ and to an extent all the other guards and their disputes aligned up with Northern, regardless of benefit for them.

The damage should be short lived. Note that the Southern brand has recovered somewhat and is more punctual than it has been in years. GTR recorded increased passenger numbers despite all the problems in the last couple of years. After the current stalemate passes - which will be as soon as Arriva force ASLEF’s hand - Northern gets a complete fleet renewal, you’d expect some staff turnover which should improve morale, and plenty of new and existing drivers on more money. Improving performance always improves TOCs and for Northern the only way will be up. However the present stalemate has little chance of resolving quickly.



It’s easy to forget how much more attention the media gave the rail industry when the first GTR dispute was at its peak. Presumably the other TOCs have learned from the way it was all played out through the media. Northern doesn’t have anything to gain from setting out any detailed plans until they have the trains and drivers all in place to bring those plans in. Attempting to lay out plans publically would just leave them with more aspects for the unions and their supporters to pick at piece by piece and give Arriva more grief over.

Here is the RMT’s latest letter to Northern members off their website, which shows that after more than a year they have at least got to the central conundrum.

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – ARRIVA RAIL NORTH
Dear Colleague,

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – ARRIVA RAIL NORTH

You will have now received correspondence from David Brown, Managing Director, Northern, headed ‘Ongoing Strikes’ which is very selective in the information it provides to say the least. I believe that my letter to him dated 16th October 2018, which was included in the correspondence sent to you, is quite clear and concise. For some reason Northern do not.

I have, therefore, again written to the company and so there can be no confusion or doubt as to what the Union is asking I reproduce it below. When you read my letter to him you will see that even Northern should be able to answer the question posed.

I will of course advise you of the company’s response once received.

NO TO DOO
SUPPORT THE ACTION
SUPPORT YOUR COLLEAGUES


Yours sincerely,

Mick Cash
General Secretary

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

“Letter to David Brown - ARN

Our Ref: BR2/0146

6th November 2018

Dear David,

Role of the Guard & Extension of DOO – Arriva Rail North

I understand that you have been raising concerns that the union has not responded to your request for further discussions – discussions which you have made conditional on the union calling off industrial action.

I have checked my records and can confirm that you did send a letter dated 19th October which offered little in dealing with the issues at the heart of this dispute. You state quite rightly that the dispute covers two issues the role of the guard and extension of driver only operation. You have tried to split hairs by saying that DCO is different from DOO.

You have also accused the union of changing our minds on this issue. That is not correct the union has from day one made it quite clear that our dispute is about ensuring that every train currently run by Northern Rail continues to be operated with second safety critical conductor on board carrying out the full range of operational duties.

For the record we have achieved settlements elsewhere that have ensured no extension of DOO, and that trains currently running with a Conductor will continue to run with a safety critical Conductor undertaking a full range of operational duties.

Arriva Rail North has signed up to a contract with Transport for the North and the Department for Transport that states you intend to run at 50% of the services without that commitment. Worse than that you have indicated to my representatives during discussions that you would like to run 100% of services in that mode of operation.

You have voiced to us that your hands are tied in that you have committed to your lords and masters to deliver DCO. We have offered to meet with you and the DfT to see if that contractual commitment could be set aside to allow meaningful discussions to resolve the dispute. You have refused on the grounds that the DfT are your client and you have made a contractual commitment to them.

So here is the problem. You give the impression that our talks could be meaningful yet that cannot happen as you cannot offer the union a deal. If you are committed to delivering the contractual commitment how can we have meaningful discussions? The only way progress can be made is if you go back to your clients and seek their permission to withdraw the contractual commitment to introduce at least 50% of services in DCO mode

My question to you is will you do that?

I await your response.”

Ends

Yet another idealogue glibly commenting on how there's not going to be any permanent damage to the railway in the North, and how passengers should supinely 'suck it all up' for the sake of an idealogically pure railway.

This illustrates how the protagonists of this dispute are living in a dreamworld.
 

Robertj21a

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Surely, there's nothing new in any of this ?

If I was to summarise:-

RMT want *every* train to run with a driver and safety critical guard. No exceptions whatsoever.

Arriva want to be able to run trains with a driver responsible for all operation (DOO) and a second person on board (much as the Southern OBS). They want a little flexibility to still run that train DOO even if that second person (OBS) isn't available *due to exceptional circumstances*.

To me, there's nothing new in any of that - is there ?
 

furnessvale

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Anybody want a laugh at the latest tactic being deployed by the RMT? A petition!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/231479/
Firstly, the petition is worded as if DOO is new thing just being introduced.

Secondly, the wording makes no distinction between passenger and freight. If by some miracle this went through to become law, it would mandate a guard on every freight train. I'll bet the Road Haulage Association are backing this one, with the prospect of all that freight returning to road due to the extra manning costs of railfreight.
 

Halifaxlad

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Its certainly worded interestingly, implemented literally would also mean retrospectively bringing back guards on all trains including the London Underground. I somehow doubt it would even get to that stage.
 

Darandio

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Firstly, the petition is worded as if DOO is new thing just being introduced.

Secondly, the wording makes no distinction between passenger and freight. If by some miracle this went through to become law, it would mandate a guard on every freight train. I'll bet the Road Haulage Association are backing this one, with the prospect of all that freight returning to road due to the extra manning costs of railfreight.

Surely there is a distinction between Train Operating Company (TOC) and Freight Operating Company (FOC)?
 

scrapy

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Anybody want a laugh at the latest tactic being deployed by the RMT? A petition!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/231479/

Considering I've been on a train which changed guards on route (pretty sure it was something like a Scarborough - Sheffield service) where the outgoing guard didn't tell the new guard there was a wheelchair on board for Goole guard was a back cab resident so the poor lady was overcarried to Sheffield as there was nobody at Goole to put the ramp down for her.
So it isn't just DOO trains where it is a problem.

(And not to mention the wording makes it sound like its those evil money grabbing foreign owned companies pushing through the changes when the bulk of the existing DOO areas were formed during British Rail?)
Is there any evidence of RMT involvement in this petition? Is Ben Spiers who started the petition connected in anyway to the RMT? I would certainly expect the RMT to be mentioned if they were and direct mention of evil money grabbing foreign owned conpanies. This looks to me like a petition set up by an individual or disabled group unless anyone knows different?
 
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Kite159

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Is there any evidence of RMT involvement in this petition? Is Ben Spiers who started the petition connected in anyway to the RMT? I would certainly expect the RMT to be mentioned if they were. This looks to me like a petition set up by an individual or disabled group unless anyone knows different?

I only found out about it as the RMT were tweeting about it on Twitter. Example tweet below:

3,700 signatures in just a few hours for this petition to make it a legal requirement to #keeptheguardonthetrain , please sign and share
https://twitter.com/RMTunion/status/1059895020411592707

Maybe Ben Spiers is their work experience kid
 

woodmally

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I can understand the RMT supporting it but I still very much doubt they set it up.
I'm a supporter of DOO and think the strikes are ridiculous However! I have signed the petition because I think this issue needs discussing in parliament and I dont have a problem with there being a guard on the train. All I really care about is the poor passengers being able to get from a to b.
 

Carlisle

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I have signed the petition because I think this issue needs discussing in parliament and I dont have a problem with there being a guard on the train.
Been there 2 years ago. At the height of the Southern dispute all main parties involved answered questions before the T.SC. .
There’s surely little more of substance left for parliament to discuss.
 
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CHAPS2034

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It's a shame that a nice gesture will be of no use on many lines, and of limited use on most lines this Saturday.
View attachment 55042

And interesting to note that the strike on SWR, called for 10th November, was called off last week to allow people to travel to Remembrance events and ceremonies.

Obviously the RMT up here aren't bothered about such things.
 

Starmill

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The damage should be short lived.
This is naive. The Southern Metro timetable change has resulted in huge performance gains but has nothing to do with DOO. Elsewhere in GTR, reputation and reliability are still poor. In any case, Northern is not Southern. The strikes have hit at a key moment for growth in patronage as enhancements are delivered, but the opposite has happened. There is more direct damage at Northern than GTR, through more strike days and a greater impact on services, and more indirect damage as more alternative modes are available.
 

Carlisle

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There is more direct damage at Northern than GTR, through more strike days and a greater impact on services, and more indirect damage as more alternative modes are available.
If a proportion of the workforce are determined to put their industry at serious risk of decline, quite honestly that’s their fault, no doubt we all hope a sensible compromise can soon be reached and everyone can move forward positively, but neither should it be necessary to get down on ones bended knees and plead for staff to work normally, if they’ve chosen to give almost unquestionable loyalty to their union whilst showing almost none to their industry, that’s their problem not ours
 

B&I

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If a proportion of the workforce are determined to put their industry at serious risk of decline, quite honestly that’s their fault, no doubt we all hope a sensible compromise can soon be reached and everyone can move forward positively, but neither should it be necessary to get down on ones bended knees and plead for staff to work normally, if they’ve chosen to give almost unquestionable loyalty to their union whilst showing almost none to their industry, that’s their problem not ours


So what would they get in return for the loyalty whose absence you bemoan ? The destruction of their job security ? As usual in the modern British workplace, it seems that conceptions of loyalty are rather unidirectional
 

furnessvale

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So i'm still unsure how you believe if this became law it would mandate a guard on every freight train? :s

We are talking theoretical possibilities which won't actually happen, but the headline of the petition is:-

Make it a legal requirement to have a second safety critical person on trains

All the other information on the petition is background info and is not the body of the petition itself.


If, and its a big if, the government took the petition seriously, this would mandate a second person on all trains.
 

Big_43

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So what would they get in return for the loyalty whose absence you bemoan ? The destruction of their job security ? As usual in the modern British workplace, it seems that conceptions of loyalty are rather unidirectional
What if the job no longer exists? Progress means that the workforce needs to adapt to changes. And yes, I do support the second member of staff on trains, but passengers should still be able to travel in the unlikely event of guard absence.

However, the strike before the Remembrance Sunday is pretty much as low as anyone could go.
 

Carlisle

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So what would they get in return for the loyalty whose absence you bemoan ? The destruction of their job security ? As usual in the modern British workplace, it seems that conceptions of loyalty are rather unidirectional
I agree poor and short term management and the structure of the industry are equally if not more to blame for creating this culture in the first place
 

woodmally

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Been there 2 years ago. At the height of the Southern dispute all main parties involved answered questions before the T.SC. .
There’s surely little more of substance left for parliament to discuss.
Firstly this petition like every other one before it will be largely ignored by parliament. However what it will do is it will get it discussed in the Commons and maybe Jerremy might actually stick his flag to the flagpole and finally come on side of the RMT. I am not a supporter of the RMT or Corbyn but angered he wont even side with his comrades and just keeps out of this dispute. It would be more helpful to get this resolved in him taking sides to be honest. My reason, the RMT will never back down over DOO and the only way to change it is to change the franchise agreement which has to be done by the DFT which is a government department. Failing that we will have strikes every Saturday till DOO is implemented.

As an aside some of the communication from the RMT suggests that they are having arguments internally. Maybe many of their members are becoming battle weary.
 

Starmill

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If a proportion of the workforce are determined to put their industry at serious risk of decline, quite honestly that’s their fault, no doubt we all hope a sensible compromise can soon be reached and everyone can move forward positively, but neither should it be necessary to get down on ones bended knees and plead for staff to work normally, if they’ve chosen to give almost unquestionable loyalty to their union whilst showing almost none to their industry, that’s their problem not ours
This is idealistic. The government has a responsibility to ensure a good train service is running, as part of their responsibility to promote low-carbon and low-pollution travel patterns, crucially as an alternative to petrol or diesel car use. It's less about the immediate effect and more about attitudes, attitudes where people inherently prefer their cars to all else. This action promotes that bad attitude.
 

a_c_skinner

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the RMT will never back down over DOO and the only way to change it is to change the franchise agreement

Or for them to be defeated. As things are I don't see them having any plans capable of bringing this dispute to a victory for the staff side.
 
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