Arriva Rail North DOO

[Gems]

We keep getting this line. "You are alienating the public" Urm, every other day I work I am not getting those vibes.
Most of the public have shown no attitude change whatsoever. A few ask how things are going, majority of comments are in support. I can't recall a single negative comment if I'm honest. Plenty of negative comments about Northern rails services though.
No, I think a lot on here are just wishing their views represented reality.

 

[Gems]

But they did show didn't they? That's certainly what was said upthread.

Yes they showed, they had to show, but with nothing whatsoever. Now they can go away again and say they tried.

 

[Killingworth]

Of course the passengers are the people who really count. In the north the number of journeys made by rail will be around 1%. There is massive scope for growth, and that's part of the problem. Numbers were growing, and quite fast. They may still be on 6 days a week, despite the strikes! They are on other operators. There should be little fear of job losses if passenger numbers resume their previous growth rate.

At the same time the trains used by Northern are ageing, the majority now almost 30 years old and in need of upgrading in all aspects, not least the technology to operate with only a driver. However, in Northernland there's no way to ensure revenue is collected on the majority of trains without a second crew member aboard and that's probably more important. The new trains will still need onboard support as stations like Sheffield and York are ungated.

Of course this all becomes a total nonsense when trains made up of two units are sent out without inter-connection and only one conductor/guard. No passenger security in the lead unit, and massive scope for fare evasion.

Never mind, rail travellers from the Hope Valley will not go into Sheffield or Manchester by train again this Saturday. Walkers will come by car, or not at all. Life will go on. Rail is largely irrelevant to over 90% of the population anyway, and the 10% who do use trains are learning to cope.

Interesting rail statistics available here from the Department for Transport and the links from it; https://assets.publishing.service.g...ment_data/file/761352/rail-factsheet-2018.pdf

 

[Starmill]

If they actually want to force Northern's hand rather than negotiate, i.e. no concessions, I expect "all out until there is an agreement" is the only way that will be achieved.

Don't go giving them ideas! We've already had rumour enough about next year as it is.

 

[Robertj21a]

Apart from the passengers which the RMT's action is denying a train service, the businesses the RMT's action is sending to the wall, and the workers who risk losing their jobs, the strikes are achieving absolutely nothing. It's truly bizarre how the RMT seem to wear the "38 days" like a badge of honour when really it's nothing other than an abject failure for all parties involved.

The idea that calling even more strike days, or striking more often, would be a "mind blowing escalation" is laughable. All it will mean is you inconvenience passengers even more than you're doing already, do even more damage to the regional economy, lose even more money, while still continuing to achieve absolutely nothing.

At what point does the penny drop that the RMT are a busted flush who have massively overplayed their hand and are striking their way into irrelevance?

To me, the RMT is probably the last remaining fairly large 'dinosaur' union. They don't want to recall what happened to the NUM and Scargill (who thought that a Trade Union could ignore the government), and they don't appear to have quality senior staff to allow any common sense to seep through. It's clear that this dispute is mostly a combination of them needing to retain RMT membership numbers, whilst also attempting to further their political views. The fact that they sometimes remember to throw in 'doors' is at least of some comfort to passengers. We haven't heard so much about FatCats and German masters in their recent outpourings of how badly they're being treated by the DfT/Arriva, so it may be that someone is beginning to think before they go in to print.

It's often forgotten that so few people in the UK actually use the railways (isn't it something like only 7-10% ?) that the vast majority of the electorate don't care what goes on. Many would happily see the government take a hard line with any union that prefers to stay back in the 1980s, rather than acting in a modern, professional, manner.

 

[Bantamzen]

We keep getting this line. "You are alienating the public" Urm, every other day I work I am not getting those vibes.
Most of the public have shown no attitude change whatsoever. A few ask how things are going, majority of comments are in support. I can't recall a single negative comment if I'm honest. Plenty of negative comments about Northern rails services though.
No, I think a lot on here are just wishing their views represented reality.

Don't expect that to last. The continuing Saturday action is starting to have an adverse effect on businesses, this is for many their busiest time and a loss of footfall leads to a loss of profit, which in turn leads to a loss of jobs. If any downturn in high street revenue or jobs over the next month is attributed in part down to less people travelling as a result of strikes, that impact will be felt far and wide. Again trust me on this, long term disputes where members of the public are affected does wear the public perception down. Most you talk to will probably still be in favour of the union's aims, or at least some, but it won't last. There comes a point where action starts to have a detrimental effect.

Yes they showed, they had to show, but with nothing whatsoever. Now they can go away again and say they tried.

So they did show then? However none of us a privy to exactly what was said, both sides will have their take on it & the DfT seemed to have cooled over the idea of relaxing the franchise agreements on the guard duties so maybe both sides need more discussion with them?

 

[Starmill]

One upside of this - I guess once things are running again the overcrowding will be a thing of the past. Might the Government actually consider this a benefit of allowing things to continue?

I was quite shocked at the large number of empty seats on the 1809 from Manchester Piccadilly towards Liverpool Lime Street last night. A 4 car 156 had maybe a quarter of seats free which was really surprising. Of course, the weather wasn't great and it was a Tuesday, so probably few leisure passengers. Still, the as was 1807 TransPennine, which this replaces, always used to be wedged with people boarding at Manchester stations

 

[Starmill]

We keep getting this line. "You are alienating the public" Urm, every other day I work I am not getting those vibes.
Most of the public have shown no attitude change whatsoever. A few ask how things are going, majority of comments are in support. I can't recall a single negative comment if I'm honest. Plenty of negative comments about Northern rails services though.
No, I think a lot on here are just wishing their views represented reality.

If I had something negative to say, I would simply keep my mouth shut. If I had something positive to say, I would probably pass comment. I suspect a lot of people would feel similarly!

 

[scrapy]

I was quite shocked at the large number of empty seats on the 1809 from Manchester Piccadilly towards Liverpool Lime Street last night. A 4 car 156 had maybe a quarter of seats free which was really surprising. Of course, the weather wasn't great and it was a Tuesday, so probably few leisure passengers. Still, the as was 1807 TransPennine, which this replaces, always used to be wedged with people boarding at Manchester stations

Many on the Transpennine had come from York, Leeds and Huddersfield though. Those passengers will now go via Victoria to Liverpool and those trains are still busy.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Time now for Northern to start investing in Rail Replacement Buses and work out a timetable for strike days. A reduced bus service linking to stations with other operators has now got to be a target as this dispute will not be settled soon, given the entrenched attitudes.

 

[Starmill]

I was commenting specifically on the crowds who were joining the train at Manchester stations. After we'd left a near empty platform 14 remained, which is something that I never thought I'd say at 1800ish on a weekday. Of course, at other times I've seen trains busier than ever before so it does not particularly mean anything.

 

[superkev]

Am I the only person here who thinks driver operated doors are safer as the driver can still see down the train after all the doors are closed.
As for the guards being track trained im not sure if some of Northerns guards Ive seen could actually get back on the train if they got off. Are there regular fittness checks on train crew?
K

 

[CN75]

This is massive progress for the guards (taking the RMT’s objectives as separate, for a moment). Northern were planning to remove second staffing on a number of trains, but now are saying all of the future roles will be on board. The opportunity to negotiate around that principle for salary, job responsibilities and job security are enormous. Yet the RMT, driven by old hand reps, won’t negotiate it. It will likely be ASLEF who eventually do so. A very dismal situation for the Northern guards to be in.

 

[Starmill]

Time now for Northern to start investing in Rail Replacement Buses and work out a timetable for strike days. A reduced bus service linking to stations with other operators has now got to be a target as this dispute will not be settled soon, given the entrenched attitudes.

Thus far, the company have been averse to offering buses on routes where no trains operate. They've either run a tiny token service or run absolutely nothing in many cases. I wonder how they can be made to change this?

 

[Starmill]

Northern were planning to remove second staffing on a number of trains

Is this really true though? We don't actually seem to have any evidence of that?

 

[sportzbar]

I really can't see how you can come up with any statistically accurate figure from just 'working with customers' - do you explain all of the detailed issues, the pros and cons, the PTI, the alternatives that work well across the country etc etc ?

Oh dear oh dear. I am talking from my own experience and yes I do have numerous conversations with passengers day in day out. I do engage with people who disagree with the strikes and want doo but they are in the minority. As I have stated from my own experience in my role (which I am fighting to save by the way, my absolute right as enshrined by law), the vast majority do not want doo. When I explain that having a second person on board as the company have commited to, they don't understand who this person is. It could be a cleaner and the company can state a second person is on. Unfortunately I don't have written evidence to hand as usually I'm too busy doing the very job I'm trying to save so don't really have time to do my own surveys....

 

[Robertj21a]

Oh dear oh dear. I am talking from my own experience and yes I do have numerous conversations with passengers day in day out. I do engage with people who disagree with the strikes and want doo but they are in the minority. As I have stated from my own experience in my role (which I am fighting to save by the way, my absolute right as enshrined by law), the vast majority do not want doo. When I explain that having a second person on board as the company have commited to, they don't understand who this person is. It could be a cleaner and the company can state a second person is on. Unfortunately I don't have written evidence to hand as usually I'm too busy doing the very job I'm trying to save so don't really have time to do my own surveys....

So, this cleaner also does the whole range of customer-facing duties that Arriva have said is necessary ? - no, it's more probably an OBS.

 

[underbank]

We keep getting this line. "You are alienating the public" Urm, every other day I work I am not getting those vibes.

Well seeing as I've stopped using the trains, you won't be getting any "vibes" from me at all, nor others like me who've likewise given up on them.

 

[pemma]

Thus far, the company have been averse to offering buses on routes where no trains operate. They've either run a tiny token service or run absolutely nothing in many cases. I wonder how they can be made to change this?

Under normal circumstances they are required to run a proper replacement bus service if there's no trains. However, industrial action is an exception and I don't think they have to offer any service at all if crew members walk out.

 

[DaveB10780]

If I had something negative to say, I would simply keep my mouth shut. If I had something positive to say, I would probably pass comment. I suspect a lot of people would feel similarly!

Yes that seems to sum it up, probably for most people. I certainly have no problem with individual guards and see no need to upset them. However I think their organisation is archaic, obstructive and will do them no service in the final reckoning.

 

[sportzbar]

So, this cleaner also does the whole range of customer-facing duties that Arriva have said is necessary ? - no, it's more probably an OBS.

Do you really think that just because ARN have comitted to a second person on board that means there will be a person on every train? Would you not agree that a second person on the train who is fully trained as safety critical is the best option? Or would you be happy with an OBS who doesn't have the full safety critical qualifications to be the person to go to when it all goes wrong? That is what we are fighting for. As it stands the train will be able to run without that second person. There has been no change in the contract just a rehash of the wording to make it sound to the general public that the RMT are the ones dragging their heels. The RMT have not changed or reworded their position from day one. The Dft and ARN are the ones putting out misleading statements that are designed to look as if they have changed when in fact they haven't. I wonder why they do this? Is it because public opinion is in favour of a 2nd safety critical person on every train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you really think that just because ARN have comitted to a second person on board that means there will be a person on every train? Would you not agree that a second person on the train who is fully trained as safety critical is the best option? Or would you be happy with an OBS who doesn't have the full safety critical qualifications to be the person to go to when it all goes wrong?

Personally? I'm quite happy with DOO in terms of my personal safety. It's much, much safer than driving. So yes, I'm definitely happy with OBS.

 

[scrapy]

Thus far, the company have been averse to offering buses on routes where no trains operate. They've either run a tiny token service or run absolutely nothing in many cases. I wonder how they can be made to change this?

In the early days of the strikes replacement buses were more extensive than now. For example there were buses on Lancaster to Morecambe and Preston to Ormskirk which now have no service at all. There were also engineering replacement buses between Manchester and Wigan, Preston and Blackburn. Northern claim they can't now get any more buses despite running a lot fewer than in the past but we all that's bullsh*t.

 

[Robertj21a]

Do you really think that just because ARN have comitted to a second person on board that means there will be a person on every train? Would you not agree that a second person on the train who is fully trained as safety critical is the best option? Or would you be happy with an OBS who doesn't have the full safety critical qualifications to be the person to go to when it all goes wrong? That is what we are fighting for. As it stands the train will be able to run without that second person. There has been no change in the contract just a rehash of the wording to make it sound to the general public that the RMT are the ones dragging their heels. The RMT have not changed or reworded their position from day one. The Dft and ARN are the ones putting out misleading statements that are designed to look as if they have changed when in fact they haven't. I wonder why they do this? Is it because public opinion is in favour of a 2nd safety critical person on every train?

Having been on DOO trains for over 30 years without incident then I can't say I'm really concerned at all. I've been on numerous other trains where I have no idea if there was a guard on board or not.

 

[yorkie]

Apart from the passengers which the RMT's action is denying a train service, the businesses the RMT's action is sending to the wall, and the workers who risk losing their jobs, the strikes are achieving absolutely nothing. It's truly bizarre how the RMT seem to wear the "38 days" like a badge of honour when really it's nothing other than an abject failure for all parties involved.

The idea that calling even more strike days, or striking more often, would be a "mind blowing escalation" is laughable. All it will mean is you inconvenience passengers even more than you're doing already, do even more damage to the regional economy, lose even more money, while still continuing to achieve absolutely nothing.

At what point does the penny drop that the RMT are a busted flush who have massively overplayed their hand and are striking their way into irrelevance?

The RMT are not going to see sense, at least not under their current leadership. Yes their actions should be nothing to be proud of, but they are extremists, and don't think like you or I.

...the vast majority do not want doo...

Absolute nonsense! If you ask people who actually have experience of the electric trains in the Glasgow area, which is clearly what the Northern network should be like, I am sure they will be happy. Customer service on those trains is infinitely better - on average - than on Northern trains. The staff are happier, they are friendlier, they are much more visible, on average. There'll always be exceptions but they are few and far between in my experience.

The only reason people will agree with you is if you paint a biased picture. I've explained to some people who were mislead by RMT supporters what DOO actually means and that there are many DOO trains with highly visible staff, and they realise then that the RMT are not being truthful.

The RMT can continue on their destructive path if they wish but the truth needs to be revealed to passengers. The more they try to twist things, and falsely claim that trains in Glasgow are unsafe, the more I will expose their lies, and I hope others do too.

 

[Carlisle]

The RMT have not changed or reworded their position from day one.

They have though, deals agreed on Merseyail, GA and potentially SWR don’t insist on guards closing doors, and they’d previously shown a willingness to negotiate a similar agreement on northern which they later withdrew,

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Personally? I'm quite happy with DOO in terms of my personal safety. It's much, much safer than driving. So yes, I'm definitely happy with OBS.

It wouldn't bother me either. It's about time the RMT admitted that they couldn't give a toss about passenger safety, the dispute is purely and simply about saving their jobs, jobs which the public are increasingly realising are unnecessary and superfluous.

 

[Robertj21a]

Do you really think that just because ARN have comitted to a second person on board that means there will be a person on every train? Would you not agree that a second person on the train who is fully trained as safety critical is the best option? Or would you be happy with an OBS who doesn't have the full safety critical qualifications to be the person to go to when it all goes wrong? That is what we are fighting for. As it stands the train will be able to run without that second person. There has been no change in the contract just a rehash of the wording to make it sound to the general public that the RMT are the ones dragging their heels. The RMT have not changed or reworded their position from day one. The Dft and ARN are the ones putting out misleading statements that are designed to look as if they have changed when in fact they haven't. I wonder why they do this? Is it because public opinion is in favour of a 2nd safety critical person on every train?

Do you explain all the details surrounding 'safety critical' when you have these surveys with your passengers ?
Do you explain that DOO is perfectly normal across much of the UK ?
Do you accept that a passenger is more likely to agree with a guard, rather than risk a confrontation ?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Should the strikes continue into 2019, I can really see things kicking off especially after the 2nd January when the fares go up again which could well lead to hoards of angry commuters who are already p***ed off at the on going strikes end up taking their anger out on anyone who is a railway employee.

As I don't think it'll be too long until we see increases in fare evasion, increases to physical assaults on guards / gateline staff and potentially seeing some stations being shut completely because of already ongoing problems that are separate from the strikes, since most people in the north will feel ripped off and quite literally taken for a ride.

 

[pemma]

Is it because public opinion is in favour of a 2nd safety critical person on every train?

Do you explain all the details surrounding 'safety critical' when you have these surveys with your passengers ?

Having done surveys with passengers and seen the results of ones done by Transport Focus what they want most is a visible staff presence. The majority would also rather board a train with just a driver on board than spend 60 minutes at an unstaffed station due to a train being cancelled because there's no second person.