Arriva Rail North DOO

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Andrew32, 27 Oct 2016.

  1. nidave

    nidave Member

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    Noy having a go at you - just the fact that the whole thing is supposed to be about passenger safety and they are not even trained in providing emergency aid. So what passenger safety are they going on about?
     
  2. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    I wasn't trying to imply you were, just clarifying it was a serious comment based on what others had posted on here before in case there was any doubt.
     
  3. sandyravage

    sandyravage Member

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    That's not true. The RMT raised this with the previous franchise holder at its JSC with Directors and we're rebuffed on grounds of cost of maintaining and managing competence.
     
  4. sandyravage

    sandyravage Member

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    That's untrue. The RMT raised this issue at the JSC a couple of years ago. The company rejected proposals to ensure all Conductors are first aid trained stating there's no ORR requirement and that it would be too costly to manage and maintain competence.
     
  5. Gems

    Gems Member

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    It is indeed poor, it is a area I think really should be looked at again. I used to be the registered first aider at my place of work before I joined the railway, and although my competency has long since lapsed, the knowledge is still there in the back of your mind.
    I have had numerous medical emergencies where this knowledge has come in handy. It only needs to be basic. But before we go around blaming TOC's etc, I think we need to look at a few realities.
    The biggest reality is the law itself, or the perceived law. These people are terrified of a employee making a mistake and them being sued, it is a very sad state of affairs really. Let me also fill you in on other lines of thinking of TOC's. I have heard it said in safety briefs that if you can get a member of the public to phone a ambulance you should, their reasoning is that then you can waffle on to Northern control miles away in York who can do absolutely nothing to help, but no doubt can start the process of proportioning blame for the delay.
    I have even heard it said that if you can get a member of the public to wait with them on a platform so we can get the train moving you should also.
    No there is no humanity from these people, just thoughts about money. It doesn't sit well with me at all.
     
  6. Gems

    Gems Member

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    I'll tell you something else also. I once on a late night train one weekend was helping a guy who collapsed and got a torrent of abuse from passenger because the ambulance took 40 minutes to arrive.
    From "He's only pissed" to "Cant you leave him on the platform" I even had one guy who when I tried to reason with him by asking if it was his wife who had collapsed, if he would like me to leave her on the platform in -2 temperatures, he came out with "But it's not my wife is it"
    I was awake most of that night. I realised humanity in the UK was on it's way out. I'm telling you, you need a cool head in this job. Forget all the arguments about DCO and safety critical. It is times like that you earn your crust.
     
  7. nidave

    nidave Member

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    So if its all about passenger safety (just trying to get my head around this whole mental situation) why did they not take this further - but opening and closing the doors are seen as a red line to the RMT
     
  8. Gems

    Gems Member

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    How far would you want us to take it? Would there be a thread on here union bashing if we had gone on strike over it.
     
  9. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    When I said major objections I mean comparable to the objections over door and dispatch duties being transferred to drivers, especially considering even if RMT don't raise any objections to the latter ASLEF could still block it or specify a list of conditions under which they'll accept it.
     
  10. 74A

    74A Member

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    GWR guards don't get First Aid training. If you did decide guards need it what would you do with the ones who didn't want to do it ? Make them redundant. Also DOO would not be able to run. Unless you made all the drivers do it and again you would get ones who did not want to.

    It would cost quite a lot to train and keep the training up to date for likely very little benefit. On any train with more that 40 people you are more than likely to find highly trained individuals anyway such as Nurses, Doctors Paramedics. I did see one train where someone fell ill. The guard called for assistance and got 2 nurses 2 doctors and 2 A&E doctors !

    Its the same at stations. There is no requirement for trained first aiders. If there were you would have to close the station when the first aider was unavailable which would not be popular.
     
  11. Gems

    Gems Member

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    Yes, very good points.

    A lot of people are literally terrified of even the thought of attempting first aid. Many will walk past other than attempt it. There is a lack of humanity, but there is also a huge lack of knowledge.
     
  12. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    I'm sure it was previously stated the ones who work HST services do get training.

    Oh dear. :roll: If guards are there for the safety of passengers they would surely resign if they don't want to take part in training which related to the safety of passengers, especially considering passenger safety is supposed to be something that's higher priority than revenue duties.

    Who often does a guard have to evacuate passengers from a train? Does the same argument apply there?

    On any train or just an Intercity train? Due to their working hours nurses, doctors and ambulance workers are very unlikely to use the train to get to work - maybe some do in London but I can't see it being a nationwide trend.

    My local station is 2 minutes walk from a doctor's surgery and 2 minutes drive from the local ambulance station. How quickly can the guard walk to the nearest doctor's surgery to get help when on a moving train? ;)
     
  13. 74A

    74A Member

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    No they don't.

    Performing first aid carries quite a responsibility. If you said to all the staff in your workplace they would all have to be qualified first aiders I am sure there would be a number who would not want to do it.
     
  14. HowardGWR

    HowardGWR Established Member

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    I was impressed with your story about helping an ill /injured passenger. It was very commendable, especially as you had to put up with abuse.
    The point is that your presence for that purpose was a bonus, not a necessity. People drop down with heart attacks and injuries all the time and all over the place. If there is someone present with first aid knowledge, that can be a huge benefit.
    I really think that one would hope that some striking guards on Northern are beginning to think about the real issues of necessity for their presence on the new trains, equipped for driver control. We have heard that the northern lines are difficult to patrol to prevent fare evasion. We also hear that pax often cannot buy tickets prior to boarding, even if they wanted to. It seems to me that having a second person constantly attending to pax on these services is bordering on a necessity. If a train has to depart without an OBS, that would be undesirable but could be tolerated for the sake of maintaining a service for the vast proportion of those who would otherwise be greatly inconvenienced, especially with, say, only an hourly or half-hourly service.

    I really cannot see any reason for these strike actions and I think a guarantee of jobs should be sufficient. From what I read of the ticket evasion on Northern, I cannot envisage that other than even more staff are needed plus a new grade of 'PCSO' in BTP is needed for these late night trains. DfT (we tax payers) should be willing to cough up for these staff.
     
  15. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    There is something known as 'bystander effect.' If someone is at unstaffed station alongside one other passenger and something happens to that passenger like they have a heart attack almost every time they will do something even if it's just to phone an ambulance and to follow the guidance given by the telephone operator. On the other hand if there's hundreds of people around most people think someone needs to help but that doesn't have to be me and then the person needing help gets ignored for longer, despite more people being around who could help.

    I find it surprising that someone who is trained to evacuate a train in the event of a fire would be adverse to checking if someone is breathing or even just bandage up a wound and possibly suggest someone goes to A&E to have it checked out if it looks very bad.
     
  16. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    There I was thinking guards were striking over their responsibilities being reduced.

    I've never worked in a workplace where a significant number of employees have had a role which is primarily for the safety of others. Comparing places I've worked to trains is like comparing the staff who work in the head office of a travel company with those who take out groups on adventure tours.
     
  17. nidave

    nidave Member

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    Everything I have typed about this comes across as being sarcastic in text but genuine congratulations for sticking up for the ill person when no one else wanted to.

    If its part of the job requirements then yes they would have to do it or leave - for me to get a promotion (admittedly years ago when I worked for McDonald's) I had to be first aid trained. I am now having to learn new skills to be able to do my current job and deal with changes in legislation which requires me to change the way I currently work.

    You are basically saying that no one should ever have to do anything beyond what they do and things should never change - so when a new rule comes out on the railways people can say they don't want to do it?

    Why is opening and closing the doors a red line for the RMT yet ensuring passengers have access to first aid if they become ill or injured not.
     
  18. Smidster

    Smidster Member

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    Sad thing is that it may very well be a horrible event or someone getting hurt that leads to something being sorted.

    At the moment there is simply no pressure point forcing anyone to budge - neither the TOC, Union or DfT currently have any incentive to change course so until that changes it is going to be the passengers who suffer.
     
  19. muz379

    muz379 Established Member

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    It was only actually 3 or 4 years ago that it changed . Not that long ago in railway terms .


    It has been brought up at least once since then as well .

    I'm not really sure how far it could be taken if there was a fail to agree on it to be honest . I dont think it was ever written into the job specification or officially part of any agreement so its not as if its a change to working conditions or practices as agreed in the same way other proposed changes are .

    Not sure about what do with people who dont want to do it but I would be surprised if anyone would refuse and would certainly question their motives for doing such . In my experience I dont think that it would be an issue , most guards I know would rather have the training provided because of situations they have been in when the best they are allowed to do is provide access to the first aid kit and call for help .
     
  20. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    I don’t really understand your point given northern/DFT have budged, and have now agreed a second person on all trains with competence levels and possible DOO in exceptional circumstances up for negotiations, have the RMT moved their position at all in response? If not, then that probably answers the question as to why we are where we are right now, more than anything else.
     
    Last edited: 6 Dec 2018
  21. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    I was under the impression that that was what they'd said when the talks were convened, however by the time of the talks they were seeking "further clarification" about the second person on board, which suggests that the rug had been pulled.
     
  22. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    There was of course the option to suspend the strikes, even if only for a week or two, in order to actually gain some clarity about what exactly was on offer .
     
  23. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    Indeed. Well, I disagree with the tactic of striking every Saturday anyway.
     
  24. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

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    I struggle to understand why the RMT think that striking every Saturday is the most effective option available to them. I'm sure if they really thought about it a bit they might see a better way of pursuing their aims.
     
  25. syorksdeano

    syorksdeano Member

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    I am very shocked at that. I would have thought that that would be the first part of any training
     
  26. scrapy

    scrapy Member

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    Which is what the invitation to tender specified. Arriva then said they planned to run trains without a rostered second person so it was them that changed the goalposts and now your saying they have compromised by going back to the original franchise spec? I also see little competencies that are actually required to do what Arriva are proposing. Arriva couldn't even give the acas/RMT any proposals on what form the competencies should take and ACAS have sent them away to do their homework and come up with some proper proposals before any talks can reconvine
     
  27. nidave

    nidave Member

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    Yet no one can answer why the RMT think that opening and closing the doors is a red line yet not being trained in emergency aid is acceptable.
     
  28. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    Weren’t the precise details of their accepted bid’s DOO plans redacted anyway, meaning we can’t say with absolute certainty what they consisted of originally.
     
  29. Confused52

    Confused52 Member

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    Please stop going back to the ITT, it isn't the Franchise Agreement which is what now stands. Because of the redactions one cannot tell if the list of services which run with DCO and must have a second franchise employee diagrammed (whose duties as stated are wholly incompatible with being a cleaner - and a list of competencies can be inferred from them which is not safety critical) amount to redacted fractions of mileage. It is therefore not possible to prove that there was any intention to run DCO trains except in exceptional circumstances. That is unless you can point to an accessible statement by Northern, which is not hearsay or assertion by a union, that actually says they intended to run DCO services where a second franchise employee was never diagrammed. Do you actually have that evidence which would then support you assertion that the compromise is going back to an earlier position? I'm just trying to move forwards our understanding by asking this.
     
  30. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    I think it is to do with arranging cover for services to run. The percentage tends to be lower on Saturday than what they can cover on weekdays. Although now it has gone on for so long most people probably wouldn't consider the train on a Saturday anyway, so 1 different day a week would at least cause more uncertainty, especially for those booking in advance
     

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