Arriva Rail North DOO

[Jonfun]

Great shame there seems to be such a total and utter lack of concern for the (non) travelling public who are just ordinary working folk. It should not be about winners and losers but providing a service.

It's the train company's responsibility to provide the train service, not individual members of staff. Train up managers, hire in a temporary workforce to cover for the guards who are legitimately and legally striking, but don't blame the staff for Northern's inability to provide a contingency service. Striking employees strike against their employer, not third parties such as passengers.

 

[jayah]

Why ?

If we assume that Arriva/DfT want to achieve some real progress (rather than stay in the dark ages) then it isn't surprising that they might see little reason to change their position. They've always confirmed 'No redundancies' so, as we've said a million times, there's no real need to fear job losses anyway.

The dispute like Southern and those before was never about job losers for the current post holders.

Losing the company, the union members and local economy £m every week ought to be an incentive for both sides to move to the middle, but one side bankrolled by government isn't actually suffering.

A case of misaligned objectives.

 

[DaveB10780]

The dispute like Southern and those before was never about job losers for the current post holders.

Losing the company, the union members and local economy £m every week ought to be an incentive for both sides to move to the middle, but one side bankrolled by government isn't actually suffering.

A case of misaligned objectives.

The union members are causing their own losses and making normal people suffer. They choose to strike even though their jobs are safe. It is so self destructive.

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes and let's not forget here the Tory government that put forward rail privatisation was a weak divided one that was faced with actually a strong opposition. So they should have used their muscle more but for whatever reason Bob Crow didn't do that. They could have had a national strike over privatisation But didn't.

No they couldn't. Thatcher had made "political" and "sympathy" strikes illegal; strikes were only allowed over genuine disputes with employers, and after a ballot of members. Any TU ignoring those laws would have been bankrupted by fines.

 

[JamesT]

It's the train company's responsibility to provide the train service, not individual members of staff. Train up managers, hire in a temporary workforce to cover for the guards who are legitimately and legally striking, but don't blame the staff for Northern's inability to provide a contingency service. Striking employees strike against their employer, not third parties such as passengers.

You can’t hire in a temporary workforce to cover, that would be illegal. The TOC can reallocate other workers to cover if it’s in their contract, but not hire in specifically for the strike.
To an extent, the point of strike action is to cause disruption to an employer’s business. If they could run a service without the people on strike it would tend to suggest they didn’t really need them...

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could hire in buses, though.

 

[Robertj21a]

The dispute like Southern and those before was never about job losers for the current post holders.

Losing the company, the union members and local economy £m every week ought to be an incentive for both sides to move to the middle, but one side bankrolled by government isn't actually suffering.

A case of misaligned objectives.

I really struggle to accept that the RMT should be attempting to protect jobs for staff who aren't even employed by the TOC. It must be for the management to determine what their staffing should be in the future, not the RMT.

The RMT should be looking after their member's interests - not people who aren't yet employed by the TOC.

 

[Carlisle]

Having checked some old copies of Modern Railways it looks as though the guards’ strike against DOO in Strathclyde in 1985 lasted for seven weeks continuously. It is not entirely clear whether the striking staff were actually dismissed although this was certainly threatened. Around 150 guards were involved.

Presumably that strike only involved balloting the relatively small number of guards that were actually facing restructuring to Ticket Inspectors, unlike the present RMT tactic of balloting an entire TOCs guard workforce regardless of how many individuals are actually going to be affected by a proposed DOO scheme.
Come to think of it since the 1980s anyway I can’t ever remember any serious national strikes by guards under BR,ok there may have been the odd day or two but that was about it

 

[Carlisle]

Very few strikes collapse that quickly. This suggests in time past, strikes resulted in a better offer that was accepted by the Unions.
Leaving aside the merits of each side of the dispute -if the government weren't paying out compensation they would surely have settled for a fraction what the strike should be costing them.

Your comparing chalk and cheese, ie a 6 year long single issue national campaign to save the guards grade by the RMT also backed on and off by ASLEF, with what’ll have been mostly short term disagreements over wage levels etc that’ll have been far more easily solvable

 

[pemma]

Train up managers, hire in a temporary workforce to cover for the guards who are legitimately and legally striking

They need to be careful there. Hiring in staff from another TOC would be permitted but you can't hire in staff from a third party agency to cover for striking workers.

 

[pemma]

The union members are causing their own losses and making normal people suffer. They choose to strike even though their jobs are safe. It is so self destructive.

The thing I don't understand is guards currently earn commission on tickets sold on board, while Northern are currently making it easier for passengers to buy before boarding and in some cases telling passengers they will be fined for not using those facilities. Surely there's an immediate threat to the total amount of income guards can take home, while currently their jobs are safe. It seems illogical they are striking over what could become an issue long term over what is currently an issue.

 

[pemma]

Your comparing chalk and cheese, ie a 6 year long single issue national campaign to save the guards grade by the RMT also backed on and off by ASLEF, with what’ll have been mostly short term disagreements over wage levels etc that’ll have been far more easily solvable

Indeed. Remember the Arriva Trains Northern dispute over pay towards the end of the franchise? Arriva just gave them exactly what they asked for, knowing that coming towards the end of the franchise they wouldn't be the ones who were to foot the bill for their very generous offer but they would be the ones who would foot the bill for industrial action. That's why all franchise agreements now forbid pay rises over the rate of inflation in the final year without DfT permission.

 

[Smidster]

The dispute like Southern and those before was never about job losers for the current post holders.

Losing the company, the union members and local economy £m every week ought to be an incentive for both sides to move to the middle, but one side bankrolled by government isn't actually suffering.

A case of misaligned objectives.

Problem though is that the only group that is suffering here is the local economy and the passengers. As you say the TOC is fine and so are the strikers as they can easily get what they are "losing" on Saturdays back by offering to work on Sundays - this means that there really is no pressure for either side to reach a conclusion and so we are likely to be talking about strike day 100 on the run up to Christmas 2019 unless something that none of us can see right now happens.

It certainly seems to me that passengers are starting to give up and find alternatives. The penultimate Airedale train yesterday (16:30 from Leeds) was far from full.

 

[Ken H]

Northern could end this dispute tomorrow by threatening to have the on train PA systems play a loop of Christmas songs. can you imagine having to endure the 15th rendering of 'Its starting to look a lot like Christmas' by perry como on your shifft?

 

[Gems]

Northern could end this dispute tomorrow by threatening to have the on train PA systems play a loop of Christmas songs. can you imagine having to endure the 15th rendering of 'Its starting to look a lot like Christmas' by perry como on your shifft?

I think this song would be better Ken. Lol

 

[Carlisle]

The thing I don't understand is guards currently earn commission on tickets sold on board, while Northern are currently making it easier for passengers to buy before boarding and in some cases telling passengers they will be fined for not using those facilities. Surely there's an immediate threat to the total amount of income guards can take home, while currently their jobs are safe. It seems illogical they are striking over what could become an issue long term over what is currently an issue.

I expect the RMT have always viewed commission as a welcome addition, however to treat it as a core issue in disputes etc would in their eyes probably liken the grade to double glazing or used car salesmen who they’ll likley believe are far inferior and expect regular wages to reflect that. .

 

[Gems]

The thing I don't understand is guards currently earn commission on tickets sold on board, while Northern are currently making it easier for passengers to buy before boarding and in some cases telling passengers they will be fined for not using those facilities. Surely there's an immediate threat to the total amount of income guards can take home, while currently their jobs are safe. It seems illogical they are striking over what could become an issue long term over what is currently an issue.

Once again some people on here on not understanding the issue. Let's look at commission.

Once upon a time there was First North Western' and ' Northern Spirit'. First North Western paid their guards about £1,000 a year more plus 2% more commission. Then the two franchises were merged, but the terms and conditions never were. Attempts at harmonisation were made, but the majority of former North Western guards rejected it. That is called democracy.
However former North Western guards such as those based at Barrow could easily take up to £1,000 a train on a Monday morning between say Barrow and Sellafield. All the nuclear plant workers wanted weekly tickets, and it added up. As many on the other side could be lucky if they took £1,000 a week.
As a result commission got lost in a fog of unsolvable problems. Now commission generally due to mobile tickets, Carlisle security part timers, and TVM's has become a bit of a pointless excercise. But although the high commission taking depots might wail at it's passing, most of us don't give a fig. It was never worth much anyway.

 

[Narom]

Northern could end this dispute tomorrow by threatening to have the on train PA systems play a loop of Christmas songs. can you imagine having to endure the 15th rendering of 'Its starting to look a lot like Christmas' by perry como on your shifft?

Wouldn't work. There aren't many PA systems in northern trains where you can hear the station being called never mind songs!

 

[Gems]

Wouldn't work. There aren't many PA systems in northern trains where you can hear the station being called never mind songs!

And if 'Merry Christmas' by 'Slade' came on, everyone would think a wheel bearing had overheated.

 

[HUY2ROB]

As you say the TOC is fine and so are the strikers as they can easily get what they are "losing" on Saturdays back by offering to work on Sundays -.

You'd expect that to be true, yet trains are cancelled on Sundays because of a shortage of train crew.Is that because of lack of volunteers or is the company punishing the strikers?

 

[pemma]

You'd expect that to be true, yet trains are cancelled on Sundays because of a shortage of train crew.Is that because of lack of volunteers or is the company punishing the strikers?

I believe the Sunday cancellations relate to not enough drivers volunteering to work, opposed to anything to do with guards.

EDIT: On checking the Lancaster-Morecambe services cancelled this evening is due to 'no conductor being available.'

 

[Carlisle]

Attempts at harmonisation were made, but the majority of former North Western guards rejected it. That is called democracy.
.

Democracy is subjective, theoretically northern rail passengers could vote on what solution they prefer to end the strikes, but if the winner wasn’t the one favoured by your union, you likley wouldn’t constder it a great excercse in democracy, perhaps similar to my view of the Brexit referendum

 

[muz379]

As you say the TOC is fine and so are the strikers as they can easily get what they are "losing" on Saturdays back by offering to work on Sundays

Nowhere near the number of sunday jobs to cover all of those that took part in strike action on a saturday . Even in the biggest depots with the most sunday work . No doubt some will be making up their losses on Sunday , but nowhere near all

You'd expect that to be true, yet trains are cancelled on Sundays because of a shortage of train crew.Is that because of lack of volunteers or is the company punishing the strikers?

Most of the Sunday cancellations that have been ongoing for months now are to do with the agreement on the west for drivers .

It might be a case of smaller depots also having a shortage of conductors and no opportunity to cross cover . But the bigger depots will have conductors jobs covered .

 

[pemma]

Attempts at harmonisation were made, but the majority of former North Western guards rejected it. That is called democracy.

So what if there had been a Northern local and a TPE franchise since privatisation? Either 'democracy' would have meant the Northern guards in the ex-ATN area didn't get what they wanted or the ones in the ex-FNW area wouldn't have got what they wanted.

 

[gazzaa2]

Are we expecting all Saturdays as strike days through Jan and beyond, or are RMT going to mix it up a bit?

They'll probably know that less and less trains will be on as the replacement guard numbers drop off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really struggle to accept that the RMT should be attempting to protect jobs for staff who aren't even employed by the TOC. It must be for the management to determine what their staffing should be in the future, not the RMT.

The RMT should be looking after their member's interests - not people who aren't yet employed by the TOC.

Precisely my contention. It should be enough that they guarantee guard roles on present terms and pay (subject to appropriate annual increases) for all guards in current employment at Northern for the duration of the franchise. (No member of staff has a guarantee beyond that; while wholesale closure is unlikely at this stage nobody knows what form the next one would take; if Brexit goes badly and the country's economy is destroyed[1] there may well be rafts of closures of unaffordable lines, for instance.)

[1] Not intending to start a Brexit debate so please don't I'm just talking vaguely plausible disaster scenarios that would result in many guard job losses even if DOO is completely stopped.

 

[Gems]

I believe the Sunday cancellations relate to not enough drivers volunteering to work, opposed to anything to do with guards.

EDIT: On checking the Lancaster-Morecambe services cancelled this evening is due to 'no conductor being available.'

Again. It is down to local agreements. On the east side if it is a booked Sunday and nobody else wants to cover it for you, you are expected to cover it. On the west, you can just chuck it in with a weeks notice. This was another reason why harmonisation was rejected.

 

[Gems]

Are we expecting all Saturdays as strike days through Jan and beyond, or are RMT going to mix it up a bit?

They'll probably know that less and less trains will be on as the replacement guard numbers drop off.

Several rumours flying around. I think the most accurate rumour is that Saturday strikes are set to continue, The big question is how many they are going to call. It is not beyond the realms of possibility they may call 52 of them.

 

[Gems]

Democracy is subjective, theoretically northern rail passengers could vote on what solution they prefer to end the strikes, but if the winner wasn’t the one favoured by your union, you likley wouldn’t constder it a great excercse in democracy, perhaps similar to my view of the Brexit referendum

But on the subject of harmonisation. The losers didn't run off crying. We all accepted it the way it was. And some of the changes proposed would have altered some long standing terms and conditions. I voted for it, I felt it was better to increase basic salary to maximise pensions, but those on routes earning big commission at the time felt differently. I bet they might be regretting it now, but that is life, you act on what you know at the time.
Not unlike the present dispute really.

 

[Robertj21a]

Several rumours flying around. I think the most accurate rumour is that Saturday strikes are set to continue, The big question is how many they are going to call. It is not beyond the realms of possibility they may call 52 of them.

I'm fairly sure that calling 52 weeks of strikes will prompt retaliation from Arriva in the form of revised T's and C's for staff and/or the government deciding to further tighten legislation.