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Arriva Rail North DOO

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yorksrob

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The original proposal had the onboard role concentrating solely on passengers needs, widely acknowledged to the better solution, and there’s currently an RMT overtime ban on Scotrail .

Well, it's a damned sight better then the fiasco we have to put up with here.
 
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Carlisle

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Well, it's a damned sight better then the fiasco we have to put up with here.
I agree, years of lack of investment and poor management in equal measure (especially in the north) has brought about this farce, similar in many respects to what happened to a sizeable proportion or our now non existent manufacturing industry
 

yorksrob

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I agree, years of lack of investment and poor management in equal measure (especially in the north) has brought about this farce, similar in many respects to much to what happened to a sizeable proportion or our manufacturing industry

That's the general underlying fiasco, but I was referring specifically to the particular fiasco of never-ending industrial action every Saturday. I would gladly take the Scotrail solution over that.
 

Carlisle

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That's the general underlying fiasco, but I was referring specifically to the particular fiasco of never-ending industrial action every Saturday. I would gladly take the Scotrail solution over that.
Given the U.K. seems to have a long history of unions and companies choosing to idealistically battle it out almost entirely for their own self interest rather than work together as seems mostly the norm in countries like Germany, I’d sooner trust an independent expert of some description to make the correct decision rather than one side or the other.
 
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Robertj21a

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Why can't we have the Scotrail solution.

No reason, just highlighting that there are alternatives. The OBS on Southern appears to have gone down well with passengers - and also gives the TOC a little flexibility.

Either would be an improvement on the Northern situation - but the RMT won't budge will they ?
 

Robertj21a

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Well one has to ask why the DfT is even in this position of power. TfN has clearly stated that it wants a second person on every train. If you're having that, it makes some sense for that person to have some safety critical competencies. The DfT is acting on behalf of a remote Government in London with barely anything resembling a mandate from the North of England, particularly given the farce that is the first past the post electoral system.

From what others have said, I thought TfN had no real authority in this matter ?. It's for the DfT to specify what they require. If you don't like their 'remote' decisions you can always take it up through your local MP - but I feel that a central decision also ensures a standard, unbiased, approach.
 

syorksdeano

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Further strikes are to be staged by South Western on 27th and New Year's Eve. What are the likely chances of them announcing the same for Northern?
 

pemma

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Further strikes are to be staged by South Western on 27th and New Year's Eve. What are the likely chances of them announcing the same for Northern?

SWR guards are working this Saturday and on 29th December though, so even with those two additional dates the number of strikes are the same as on Northern before the end of the year. With Network Rail engineering works between Christmas and New Year affecting SWR routes I suspect action on the 27th will have less impact than it would have done on 15th.
 

syorksdeano

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SWR guards are working this Saturday and on 29th December though, so even with those two additional dates the number of strikes are the same as on Northern before the end of the year.


Ah I noticed that they are also on strike on 22nd December. But I am assuming nothing is stopping announcing these additional dates for Northern, especially given South Western's refusal to engage in 'serious talks', which is the same line they have said about Northern.

In all honesty I still agree with their strike action, even if it is now annoying. Given they are striking on Saturdays and what seems to be action by Aslef on a Sunday (if I have read that right), could we also see action on a Sunday by RMT? Surely that would hit them hard with no trains running
 

Robertj21a

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Ah I noticed that they are also on strike on 22nd December. But I am assuming nothing is stopping announcing these additional dates for Northern, especially given South Western's refusal to engage in 'serious talks', which is the same line they have said about Northern.

In all honesty I still agree with their strike action, even if it is now annoying. Given they are striking on Saturdays and what seems to be action by Aslef on a Sunday (if I have read that right), could we also see action on a Sunday by RMT? Surely that would hit them hard with no trains running


I guess that many people would suggest that an endless series of strikes is never going to resolve these issues - what have they achieved so far ?
 

Carlisle

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In all honesty I still agree with their strike action,
Presumably as northern have now agreed a second member of staff on all trains there’s only really 3 reasons remaining why some of the public may still support the strikes, which are:
1) They’d rather the guard remained responsible for dispatch
2)They’re politics are more sympathetic to trade unions than the current govt
3) They don’t believe northern and still think many trains may end up without a second person
 

pemma

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Presumably as northern have now agreed a second member of staff on all trains there’s only really 3 reasons remaining why some of the public would still support the strikes,
1) They’d rather the guard remained responsible for dispatch
2)They’re politics are more sympathetic to trade unions than the current govt
3) They don’t believe northern

Or 4) They're confused and think Driver Only Operation (which the RMT keep bringing up) means the driver is guaranteed to be the only member of staff on board.

I do think the RMT thanking passengers for their support over the strikes is a bit like Chris Grayling thanking the trade unions for accepting DCO/DOO. (DCO/DOO has been accepted in some areas.)
 

Carlisle

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Thank you.
So arguably Scotrail got bullied into caving in? That and the GA deal are probably why the DfT are playing hardball on the other TOCs
It’s been said on here the RMT were actually open to a GA type deal on Scotrail but ASLEF (who jointly backed the RMT campaign prior to later conceding some ground on Southern) refused to agree to drivers carrying out any dispatch duties, and the Scottish Govt didn’t particularly want a drivers strike too
 
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muz379

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Given they are striking on Saturdays and what seems to be action by Aslef on a Sunday (if I have read that right), could we also see action on a Sunday by RMT? Surely that would hit them hard with no trains running

Driver shortages on Sundays are not down to coordinated action by ASLEF ,it's simply individual drivers deciding they dont wish to work Sundays as they are entitled to as per agreements in place around Sunday working .
 

PHILIPE

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Is there anybody to bang heads together ? ACAS have had no success and the DFT intransigence prevents them from taking any lead.
 

Robertj21a

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Is there anybody to bang heads together ? ACAS have had no success and the DFT intransigence prevents them from taking any lead.


I think most of us accepted long ago that this has all the signs of dragging through much of 2019. Nobody has very much of an incentive to resolve it.
 

_toommm_

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Hello guys, not had time to read through most of this (sorry).

I've one question (in two parts): Have Northern agreed to settle/compromise with the union? And if so, is it in the form of what crosscountry do with their Voyagers (driver open, guard close), or is it DCO with a second member of staff?

Thanks in advance
 

Starmill

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There is no agreement to resolve the industrial dispute. The method of working used by XC requires a competent second person to work the train, therefore it is not compliant with the Northern franchise agreement.
 

Bletchleyite

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Hello guys, not had time to read through most of this (sorry).

I've one question (in two parts): Have Northern agreed to settle/compromise with the union? And if so, is it in the form of what crosscountry do with their Voyagers (driver open, guard close), or is it DCO with a second member of staff?

Thanks in advance

Voyager operation is curious - it's driver release, guard dispatch (but the driver actually presses the close button after receiving 1-2 on the buzzer). I must admit to not at all understanding why, as the units have never been equipped for DOO nor am I aware of any plan for it.
 

Carlisle

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Voyager operation is curious - it's driver release, guard dispatch (but the driver actually presses the close button after receiving 1-2 on the buzzer). I must admit to not at all understanding why, as the units have never been equipped for DOO nor am I aware of any plan for it.
I believe it’s been said Virgin did at one time consider the possibility of dispatch from some locations using CD/RA indicators, but dropped the idea pretty quickly once they realised the RMT wasn’t keen
 

scrapy

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Presumably as northern have now agreed a second member of staff on all trains there’s only really 3 reasons remaining why some of the public may still support the strikes, which are:
1) They’d rather the guard remained responsible for dispatch
2)They’re politics are more sympathetic to trade unions than the current govt
3) They don’t believe northern and still think many trains may end up without a second person
When did Northern agree to a second member of staff on ALL trains? TFN and the DFT have said they'd support a second member of staff on trains (but didn't say all trains). Northern were asked directly by the RMT if there would be a second member of staff on all trains, but simply said all staff currently employed on trains would be able to remain working onboard until the end of the franchise (rather than transfering to station grades). Can you please provide a source for any agreement to keep staff on all trains?
 

387star

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What's the latest with merseyrail and agreement on funding the second person plus safety critical competencies ?
Meanwhile on greater anglia which routes will remain conventionally worked on order for guards to remain dispatch competent?
 

Eccles1983

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I bet there's messroom chat about it, though.


This from a man who's never been in one.

I can guarantee you that drivers don't sit around planning to co-ordinate to not turn in on a Sunday to frustrate passengers.

Why don't you and many other get that Sunday's are horrible to work - the diagrams are horrendous, and people like to have a day off - especially after having a drink/night out on one of the few Saturdays we get off in a period.
 

Tomnick

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The original proposal had the onboard role concentrating solely on passengers needs, widely acknowledged to be the better solution, providing of course sufficient staff are employed, and there’s currently an RMT overtime ban on Scotrail .
How is it the better solution, and who acknowledges it to be so? The second person still has to go to a set of doors at each station, to identify anyone on the platform needing assistance. Having them dispatch the train whilst they’re there anyway means that it’s safer - to some extent - and the opportunity for confusion, or for them to be left behind by accident, whilst assisting a passenger is eliminated. There are benefits, and no real disadvantage.
 
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