Arriva Rail North DOO

[Robertj21a]

When did Northern agree to a second member of staff on ALL trains? TFN and the DFT have said they'd support a second member of staff on trains (but didn't say all trains). Northern were asked directly by the RMT if there would be a second member of staff on all trains, but simply said all staff currently employed on trains would be able to remain working onboard until the end of the franchise (rather than transfering to station grades). Can you please provide a source for any agreement to keep staff on all trains?

See post 8099 on 5th December.

 

[Starmill]

See post 8099 on 5th December.

Thank you for not bothering to quote it so that people's might actually be able to read it.

Here it is:

Northern have posted the following on their website:

Northern has issued a statement following the conclusion of ACAS talks with RMT earlier today (Tuesday 4 December).

Richard Allan, Deputy Managing Director at Northern, said: “Today at ACAS talks, Northern went in to the meeting with an open mind and made it clear we wish to continue discussions and all options will be considered that involve the deployment of two members of staff on Northern services.

“Any customer who needs help with access, personal security, information, ticketing and so on will have a member of staff, in addition to the driver, on-board trains to help them.

“On behalf of customers and stakeholders, and in the spirit of working together, Northern would welcome RMT postponing its planned industrial action. We look forward to further talks at ACAS.”


Am I right in thinking that could be a way of sorting this as it seems Northern do want it sorting?

For completeness it says nothing like what scrapy said.

 

[Carlisle]

When did Northern agree to a second member of staff on ALL trains?

The minutiae of any exceptional circumstances DOO clause (if required) could only realistically be thrashed out during detailed negotiations, which aren’t likley in the immediate future as the RMT are insisting on almost every feasible concession possible, up front, merely to suspend the strikes.

 

[PR1Berske]

One thing that makes me chuckle about all this is that Tories are supposed to be the party of working people. Yet they are going hammer and tongs against organisations that represent working people i.e unions. That makes no sense unless they are lying about being on the side of working people!

Unions are supposed to be the safety net for working people but apparently some workers are more equal than others when it comes to the railway!

 

[sandyravage]

Watch this space. Tonight/ tomorrow.

 

[Darandio]

Watch this space. Tonight/ tomorrow.

Mick Cash is handing in his resignation?

 

[Robertj21a]

Thank you for not bothering to quote it so that people's might actually be able to read it.

Here it is:


For completeness it says nothing like what scrapy said.

Apologies for the fact that I was the only one who bothered to find it for you.
Further apologies that it was such an effort for you to read it after I'd pointed you in the right direction.
I will try much harder to please you in future as, clearly, my efforts to date are quite inadequate in your eyes.

 

[sandyravage]

Mick Cash is handing in his resignation?

I doubt it.

 

[yorksrob]

Given the U.K. seems to have a long history of unions and companies choosing to idealistically battle it out almost entirely for their own self interest rather than work together as seems mostly the norm in countries like Germany, I’d sooner trust an independent expert of some description to make the correct decision rather than one side or the other.

Unfortunately no such form of statutory arbitration exists, and I can't see it coming about any time soon.

Thank you.
So arguably Scotrail got bullied into caving in? That and the GA deal are probably why the DfT are playing hardball on the other TOCs

Or Scotrail, the Scottish Goverment and the RMT were given the freedom to come to a mutually beneficial agreement.

No reason, just highlighting that there are alternatives. The OBS on Southern appears to have gone down well with passengers - and also gives the TOC a little flexibility.

Either would be an improvement on the Northern situation - but the RMT won't budge will they ?

True, but we've never even got as far as seeing what compromise the RMT might be willing to make, over what a second guaranteed member of staff would do. We can't even agree around that.

From what others have said, I thought TfN had no real authority in this matter ?. It's for the DfT to specify what they require. If you don't like their 'remote' decisions you can always take it up through your local MP - but I feel that a central decision also ensures a standard, unbiased, approach.

What, you mean the standard, unbiased approach that means that Scotrail and Greater Anglia get an agreement with no controversial inclusions, whereas Northern passengers are screwed with a never ending dispute. That standard unbiased approach ?

 

[Confused52]

Unfortunately no such form of statutory arbitration exists, and I can't see it coming about any time soon.



Or Scotrail, the Scottish Goverment and the RMT were given the freedom to come to a mutually beneficial agreement.



True, but we've never even got as far as seeing what compromise the RMT might be willing to make, over what a second guaranteed member of staff would do. We can't even agree around that.



What, you mean the standard, unbiased approach that means that Scotrail and Greater Anglia get an agreement with no controversial inclusions, whereas Northern passengers are screwed with a never ending dispute. That standard unbiased approach ?

In the case of Scotrail the Scottish Ministers acting through Transport Scotland are the contracting authority and not the DfT. In a similar way to Merseytravel contracting Merseyrail but with a different legal instrument.
TfN's Rail Committee have taken Rail North's place in the Rail North Partnership with the Dft. The agreement between TfN and the DfT gives TfN a role in managing the Northern and TPE franchises but I cannot find a copy of the agreements in the public domain and hence do not know what they are able to decide. If someone knows where they are perhaps they could post a link please.

The problem for any such delegation will surely be that the DfT cannot be committed to spend more than its departmental control total determined by the Treasury in future years because of the action of a delegated authority or by one of its franchisees. Which is why Northern cannot simply decide what the cost base will be to suit its own Industrial Relations Policy without paying for it out of its own pocket and it is not allowed to trade other than as a solvent business.

 

[Kite159]

Is a reballot of members required at any stage for the strikes to continue?

As the original ballot was done before the law changed, in theory the RMT can use it until the end of time even when the people who voted have moved on

 

[Intermodal]

As the original ballot was done before the law changed, in theory the RMT can use it until the end of time even when the people who voted have moved on

Just like brexit then?

 

[yorksrob]

In the case of Scotrail the Scottish Ministers acting through Transport Scotland are the contracting authority and not the DfT. In a similar way to Merseytravel contracting Merseyrail but with a different legal instrument.
TfN's Rail Committee have taken Rail North's place in the Rail North Partnership with the Dft. The agreement between TfN and the DfT gives TfN a role in managing the Northern and TPE franchises but I cannot find a copy of the agreements in the public domain and hence do not know what they are able to decide. If someone knows where they are perhaps they could post a link please.

The problem for any such delegation will surely be that the DfT cannot be committed to spend more than its departmental control total determined by the Treasury in future years because of the action of a delegated authority or by one of its franchisees. Which is why Northern cannot simply decide what the cost base will be to suit its own Industrial Relations Policy without paying for it out of its own pocket and it is not allowed to trade other than as a solvent business.

Surely, given that Northern has a fixed budget, it's up to them to decide what it wants to sacrifice to fund the agreement. The reduction in on board staff was supposedly to allow for them to be transferred to stations instead. Therefore, if Northern and TfN decide to keep the second member on all trains, they can do this by not transferring them to be platform staff instead.

 

[Confused52]

Surely, given that Northern has a fixed budget, it's up to them to decide what it wants to sacrifice to fund the agreement. The reduction in on board staff was supposedly to allow for them to be transferred to stations instead. Therefore, if Northern and TfN decide to keep the second member on all trains, they can do this by not transferring them to be platform staff instead.

It seems to have an amount of subsidy which reduces in real terms each year. I found that in a parliamentary answer but can't find it again. Instead I will link to the announcement of the franchise where https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-franchising-northern-and-transpennine-express-franchises Patrick McLoughlin said "Arriva will reduce the amount of annual government subsidy required by around £140 million over 9 years" .

Oh and what I have found about TfN is that the powers they have on the franchise amount to being the same as a PTE and additionally to any actual PTE. So if they want higher costs they will have to find the money from the relevant local councils. They don't get to specify what government must spend as far as I have found so far.

 

[Robertj21a]

Unfortunately no such form of statutory arbitration exists, and I can't see it coming about any time soon.



Or Scotrail, the Scottish Goverment and the RMT were given the freedom to come to a mutually beneficial agreement.



True, but we've never even got as far as seeing what compromise the RMT might be willing to make, over what a second guaranteed member of staff would do. We can't even agree around that.



What, you mean the standard, unbiased approach that means that Scotrail and Greater Anglia get an agreement with no controversial inclusions, whereas Northern passengers are screwed with a never ending dispute. That standard unbiased approach ?

I see that someone else has already pointed out that the DfT doesn't control Scotrail. Perhaps Greater Anglia got an 'easier ride' because they already had DOO on some services ?

I will be interested to see precisely what powers TfN actually have, my assumption has been that they will be of little use in this dispute (other than another avenue to route complaints, rants etc).

 

[yorksrob]

It seems to have an amount of subsidy which reduces in real terms each year. I found that in a parliamentary answer but can't find it again. Instead I will link to the announcement of the franchise where https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-franchising-northern-and-transpennine-express-franchises Patrick McLoughlin said "Arriva will reduce the amount of annual government subsidy required by around £140 million over 9 years" .

Oh and what I have found about TfN is that the powers they have on the franchise amount to being the same as a PTE and additionally to any actual PTE. So if they want higher costs they will have to find the money from the relevant local councils. They don't get to specify what government must spend as far as I have found so far.

I think that demanding reduced subsidy year on year, regardless of the state of the economy, is unsustainable.

I wonder what chance they have of reducing subsidy without a train service on Saturdays for several months - but as we know, the distant Government is happy to pay this subsidy because it's propping up its ideology. They just don't want to cough up subsidy to run train services that people need.

 

[yorksrob]

I see that someone else has already pointed out that the DfT doesn't control Scotrail. Perhaps Greater Anglia got an 'easier ride' because they already had DOO on some services ?

I will be interested to see precisely what powers TfN actually have, my assumption has been that they will be of little use in this dispute (other than another avenue to route complaints, rants etc).

Whatever powers they have aren't enough. Northern passengers have been abandoned.

 

[Carlisle]

Or Scotrail, the Scottish Goverment and the RMT were given the freedom to come to a mutually beneficial agreement.

I’d question whether it was really mutually beneficial, it ultimately cost scotrail more to fit guards panels, train & maintain competence for staff who’ll ultimately have less time to assist passengers, but it did stop the strikes

 

[yorksrob]

I’d question whether it was really mutually beneficial, it ultimately cost scotrail more to fit guards panels, train & maintain competence for staff who’ll ultimately have less time to assist passengers, but it did stop the strikes

Personally I think there's an argument that the driver is better off keeping his eye on the road when about to drive off, rather than having to keep an eye on what several stag and hen doos might be doing on the platform.

 

[Tomnick]

I’d question whether it was really mutually beneficial, it ultimately cost scotrail more to fit guards panels, train & maintain competence for staff who’ll ultimately have less time to assist passengers, but it did stop the strikes

As I said, the staff would have to check the platform at each station anyway (so that they can assist passengers), so won't really be able to spend any more time in the saloon - not that it's a really sensible place for them to be anyway whilst passengers are trying to sort themselves and their luggage out.

 

[Robertj21a]

Whatever powers they have aren't enough. Northern passengers have been abandoned.

Only really abandoned by the RMT - Arriva is happy to operate normally. Perhaps TfN should have proper discussions with the RMT if they want matters resolved asap.

 

[northernchris]

Watch this space. Tonight/ tomorrow.

Could this be a sign of progress?

 

[Carlisle]

As I said, the staff would have to check the platform at each station anyway (so that they can assist passengers), so won't really be able to spend any more time in the saloon - not that it's a really sensible place for them to be anyway whilst passengers are trying to sort themselves and their luggage out.

comments on the thread about the recent class 334 incident at Uphall suggested Ticket Inspectors spend virtually their entire shift in the saloon and nobody was complaining either.

 

[Starmill]

Apologies for the fact that I was the only one who bothered to find it for you.

Oh, you did, did you?

Further apologies that it was such an effort for you to read it after I'd pointed you in the right direction.

An interesting way to look at it, given what you said turned out not to be true.

 

[Starmill]

Personally I think there's an argument that the driver is better off keeping his eye on the road when about to drive off, rather than having to keep an eye on what several stag and hen doos might be doing on the platform.

They're expected to do that at London Overground.

 

[Robertj21a]

Oh, you did, did you?

An interesting way to look at it, given what you said turned out not to be true.

Anything else you'd like me to do for you that you're clearly unable to do yourself ?

 

[Starmill]

Anything else you'd like me to do for you that you're clearly unable to do yourself ?

Yeah. If you could stay on topic too, that'd be grand. Although you'd be an outlier if you managed it, in this thread.

 

[Tomnick]

comments on the thread about the recent class 334 incident at Uphall suggested Ticket Inspectors spend virtually their entire shift in the saloon and nobody was complaining either.

A notice issued by Southern not long after their OBSs were introduced made it clear that there was a need to check the platform at each station. How else would you know whether a wheelchair user was waiting to board? Scotrail presumably gets away with their TEs not doing so because the arrangement dates from when the accessibility requirements weren’t so comprehensive.

 

[Carlisle]

A notice issued by Southern not long after their OBSs were introduced made it clear that there was a need to check the platform at each station. How else would you know whether a wheelchair user was waiting to board? Scotrail presumably gets away with their TEs not doing so because the arrangement dates from when the accessibility requirements weren’t so comprehensive.

The posts I was referring to emphasised they spent virtually all of the time in the saloon rather than the rear cab, It doesn’t state whether they’re obligated to check every platform or not , maybe someone else knows the answer to that .

 

[Killingworth]

A notice issued by Southern not long after their OBSs were introduced made it clear that there was a need to check the platform at each station. How else would you know whether a wheelchair user was waiting to board? Scotrail presumably gets away with their TEs not doing so because the arrangement dates from when the accessibility requirements weren’t so comprehensive.

We're in danger of imagining it's only wheelchair users that need help. Last year I saw a Northern conductor very patiently helping a blind man across the massive gap out of a 150 at Dore & Totley. The old chap was so grateful and probably unaware the train was already 3 minutes late with another waiting to come the other way into the single platform. Something must have been said and he started telling how once there were 5 platforms, arm still clutching the conductor, very happy to reminisce for ever and a day. He was enjoying his day out.

Along with others waiting for the delayed TPE express I could see, and understand, the conflict. I doubt the controllers only seeing the knock on delays would have been impressed. It's hard to see how driver only trains deal with such situations, presumably hoping other passengers will come to the rescue.