Arriva Rail North DOO

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Andrew32, 27 Oct 2016.

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  1. scrapy

    scrapy Established Member

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    I am currently sat on a frequently stopping guard operated 142 Northern service. Having just timed the dwell time at stations we were stopped for between 30 seconds and 40 seconds at the last five stops. The time between the all doors except the local closing and the train moving was between 6 and 10 seconds with one exception where the driver seemed slow to react and it took slightly longer (16sec). How you can save 20-40 seconds with dco I don't know?
     
  2. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    It certainly is, though it's of note that OBS working saves an additional 5-10 seconds per stop depending on the type of unit (primarily the speed of the doors). Easily 10 seconds on a Class 350 dispatched from the saloon.

    Before anyone says "but that's not much", actual DOO would save about 5 and a half minutes on a run from Hunts Cross to Southport. After all, simply adding hustle alarms required an extension of the Ormskirk to Liverpool running time by two minutes (30 to 32) in the 1990s. Driver open would still save about 2.5 minutes on that run.
     
  3. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    I wouldn't mind betting that those people aren't the ones having to put up with never ending industrial action. For a compromise to work it has to be agreed by both sides, and I would rather they agreed a compromise that works, such as the Scotrail solution, rather than some fantasy that will just result in further strikes.
     
  4. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    I'm all for compromise if it gets the trains running.
     
  5. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    It is true that we have a very safe system generally, which is why I'm not sure why I, and my fellow passengers are being expected to endure such a large level of disruptive industrial action over a change which will involve no reduction in headcount anyway, as second persons are acknowledged to be needed on the trains in Northern land, and little, if any improvement in safety.
     
  6. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    Can we have some context and a source for those statistics please.
     
  7. Confused52

    Confused52 Member

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  8. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    I have the report. Nm I have the other safety report :)

    The statistics for the mainline are :
    • There were 4 Passenger fatalities.
    • There were 318 passenger major injuries in 2017/18.
    • There were 6,4004 minor injuries to passengers and public, 1076 (17%) of which were Class 1 (the injured party went directly to hospital).
    • There were 167 recorded cases of passenger and public shock or trauma
    source : https://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk.../annual-safety-performance-report-2017-18.pdf

    Public fatalities

    There were 337 public fatalities in 2017-18 Up 9.1% compared to 2016-17 of which 45 were non-suicide fatalities and 292 were suicide or suspected suicide fatalities (249 on mainline and 43 on London Underground)

    Source : http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/39103/rail-safety-statistics-2017-18.pdf

    • Thirty-six people were engaged in trespass at the time of the accident.
    • Six people were users of level crossings; four pedestrian users and two road vehicle occupants.
    • The remaining two people were at stations.

    source : https://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk.../annual-safety-performance-report-2017-18.pdf
     
    Last edited: 14 Dec 2018
  9. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    And of course from Arriva's prospective discussions with the RMT (over guards) should have started after discussions with ASLEF were in progress, no point in agreeing a change with the RMT only to have to change it all because ASLEF don't like what has been agreed.

    Also notice it says

    So the RMT are effectively saying Arriva should pick and choose which franchise requirements they follow and which they don't bother with - that's a very dangerous suggestion from Mick Cash and one he must retract if he has any sense at all.
     
  10. coppercapped

    coppercapped Established Member

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    Yes. But there are other, fuller, statistics available.
    Ask Mr Cash. I'm sure he has a 'sloganised' answer.
     
  11. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

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    It doesn't really need any compromise, it needs the RMT to be more realistic and agree to discuss matters without their blanket pre-conditions.
     
  12. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

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    If there's no reduction in headcount and little, if any, improvement in safety then why are the RMT being so unco-operative ?
     
  13. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    It's not dangerous, as the TOC cannot and will not follow it. It's just rubbish and makes him out to be an idiot.
     
  14. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    A TOC can end up breaking their franchise commitments though and I'm sure Mick Cash will be one of the first to complain when that happens.
     
  15. scrapy

    scrapy Established Member

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    Don't Northern already pick and choose what franchise commitments they wish to forfill?

    Certainly their service levels on many routes don't meet the franchise spec and even after taking into account delays to electrification several routes don't get the Sunday services they should and that's without the 'planned cancellations'.

    What about the promised boxing day services from 2018? They are required to run 60 services this boxing day. Are they going to do it? I've certainly seen no publicity.

    I can understand Mick Cash being a bit miffed that Northern say they cant break the franchise agreement for DCO but break others as they please.
     
  16. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    How many of the franchise requirements you mention have been cancelled altogether, opposed to delayed?

    If DCO starts in 2020 or 2021 instead of 2019 you could say it falls in to the same category as additional Sunday services currently being missing on some routes. (Presuming the 195s and 331s are available for service in 2019.)
     
  17. Meerkat

    Meerkat Established Member

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    The argument that there is no saving is short term. Presumably Only the current guards get to keep their T&Cs, new bods will be recruited as cheaper OBSs.
    And the RMT’s own statements show the big picture - they claim capitulation by other TOCs as the standard, and therefore they have to be ‘broken’ for there to be future progress anywhere, about anything.
     
  18. XDM

    XDM Member

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    RMT Rule 4b
    The union & its members are dedicated to the destruction of private companies & their replacement by a socialist society.
    Northern, Southern & SWR are run by private companies.
     
  19. Gems

    Gems Member

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    LOL. It is all in the minds of the accountants and others who think they know it all, but know nothing.

    Lets all play with seconds, of course what happens when those seconds are up, do we just shut the doors on anyone left on the platform yet to board? Do we carry the elderly who are a bit slow to get off to the next stop and hope they are quicker. What about wheelchairs, bikes, and great aunt Gerty with the wooden leg.
    What about the driver who is rustling around in his bag for a snack whilst at the station? What about doors that are slow to close? Or people who insist on congregating around the doors blocking others from getting on?

    You see the trouble with many posters here is this. You mean well, but the railway to you is all working timetables and what should happen. You need to add the human factor, and the problem with arguments about dwell times is the human factor has been stripped away.
     
  20. Gems

    Gems Member

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    And when they have been broken will your fares come down? Do you like paying more for less?
     
  21. Basher

    Basher Member

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    Conductors are replaced by. Due to lack of performance by staff.
     
  22. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    Unless it gets the trains running, it's of no value to me.
     
  23. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    I don't hold any candle for the RMT.

    All I'm saying is, why not accept that there might as well be a second person on every train (as there will be on most), then we can see where we are with what that person does. A sensible solution such as driver open/guard close might develop.
     
    Last edited: 14 Dec 2018
  24. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    I couldn't give a fig about your 'big picture' no doubt while you're sitting in a leafy suburb with a full train service. No doubt there are some swivel-eyed Thatcherites who get all excited at the thought of breaking a union, but the majority just want a compromise to enable the trains to run better. Driver open/guard close would be ideal for the types of routes operated by Northern.
     
  25. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    To be fair, it isn't Mr Cash who is proposing the change.
     
  26. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    I completely disagree. The RMT need to be defeated otherwise we will keep getting these problems. Nothing wrong with the way the Glasgow are electrics run, that's what we need

    Ludicrous. Mr Cash claims trains in Glasgow, London etc are unsafe . He is an enemy of rail travel as a mode, and an enemy of yours.

    Then don't pander to them.
     
  27. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    I'm afraid we will have to disagree. If someone want's to do battle with the RMT, let them do it elsewhere. Why do I have to endure a non-existant train service over what a second person does, where even the local transport authority TfN acknowledges that there should be a second person on all trains.

    If a local transport authority decides that they don't need a second person on all trains, let them have the arguments and suffer the strikes, not me.
     
  28. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    The increase in efficiency tends to reduce subsidy rather than fares. Don't fall for the RMTs propaganda.

    The Strathclyde model is more efficient, as staff spend more time collecting fares.

    By that warped logic no changes should ever be made in case the RMT kick off. Your proposals will just encourage them even more!
     
  29. LOL The Irony

    LOL The Irony Established Member

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    I wouldn't mind Clint Eastwood as my guard! :lol:
     
  30. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    I have only once had a train door closed on me when it shouldn't have been, and it was an SWR service at Clapham Junction with a Guard, so this argument holds no water as far as I'm concerned. I've taken many DOO trains, and not had that. So this suggestion that a Guard avoids this is wrong because I know my experience proves otherwise.

    The fact is DOO has been around for over 30 years and our railways are far safer than almost any other mode of transport.

    As for people making it difficult for others to get on, how is one Guard going to prevent that on a 12 car train? It happens every Saturday night at York , and all those trains have Guards.

    Recycling the same arguements achieves nothing but if people keep making them I'm going to have to keep rebutting them. I'd rather not have to bother!
     
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