Arriva Rail North DOO

[godfreycomplex]

There's a fair few marginals in Yorkshire and in and around Manchester and Mrs May's popularity wave won't last forever
Attempting this conversion (with the inevitable widespread industrial action that will take place) is, as Sir Humphrey would say, a courageous decision
Batten down the hatches everyone, and stand firm.

 

[WatcherZero]

Hopefully one more campaign as per GTR, with unexpected levels of public support, and this time without the 'easy wins' for the DfT 'Band of B*stards', just might convince them to leave the railway alone. They're going to look every bit the job wrecking axemen they are with this happening all over the nation. I think ATN could potentially be the last place we see forced DOO for a few years.

Employee numbers will be rising in this franchise as considerably more services will be operated (2,000 per week or around 12.5%), just most of the new hires will be lower grade.
The 'axing' will be revenue protection staff replaced by a smaller number operating barriers at 10 stations.

 

[Altnabreac]

As I read the Franchise Agreement effectively what is being proposed is something along the lines of the Strathclyde Manning Agreement.

2nd non safety critical staff member rostered on all trains but service able to operate without them if unavailable.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I agree. But on most of Northern's present stock they cannot do this, because they dispatch from doors with no droplight.

If it's that important (and I would agree it is), those trains need urgent modification to make available a means of looking out along the train, be that a droplight or CCTV, from all guard dispatch positions.

150/1 and 323 classes both have droplights which are both used heavily around south manchester

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 'axing' will be revenue protection staff replaced by a smaller number operating barriers at 10 stations.

Hopefully actual railway staff instead of cheapo poorly-trained security guards.

 

[Tetchytyke]

None of this is a surprise. Giddy with success at GTR, this is the plan for all franchises.

The power here lies with ASLEF.

 

[scrapy]

No it a franchise employee means an employee of the franchise so rules out agency or third party staff.

The franchise agreement also requires the ticket gates to be manned by a at least one franchise employee, however Northern feel this wording extends to STM staff, and the DFT aren't bothered so I wouldn't be so sure that they would not be able to get away with using agency or third party staff.
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Hopefully actual railway staff instead of cheapo poorly-trained security guards.

Liverpool Lime St is Northern staff as they previously manned the booths. Other new gatelines will be STM.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's a fair few marginals in Yorkshire and in and around Manchester and Mrs May's popularity wave won't last forever. Attempting this conversion (with the inevitable widespread industrial action that will take place) is, as Sir Humphrey would say, a courageous decision

Batten down the hatches everyone, and stand firm.

How much recent comment has been made from Labour Party HQ with regards to how this possible rail service disruption will affect their northern voting heartland?

 

[lejog]

DOO can only be implemented on continuously track circuited lines signalled under TCB I believe - so that's a lot of the Northern network out; and resignalling is not moving very fast (the two major schemes at present are Blackpool and Liverpool; both maybe coming in circa 2018/2019. Liverpool area is track circuited/fully TCB already)
So there will still absolutely need to be guards (well; there needs to be guards everywhere but you catch my drift)
- Through Stockport (including the Chester line)
- Beyond at least New Mills and possibly Marple
- Anything through Bradford Interchange; Rochdale; Hull
- Anything in the North East (except for Morpeth/Chathill)
- Anything beyond Wigan Wallgate
- Anything beyond Lancaster
- Anything beyond Skipton (or anywhere near Carlisle indeed)
- Anything going through Horbury Junction (or that has the potential to divert via Horbury Junction)
- And let us not forget the Harrogate Line
Resignalling will arrive after the new stock (if it arrives at all in most of these areas)
This is by no means to say we shouldn't fight tooth and nail to keep guards on all Northern trains; but reports that (if the worst comes to the worst) the grade will disappear overnight are more than a little wide of the mark.

Of these lines, as far as I can see only the Calder Valley line and "beyond Lancaster" are receiving new rolling stock and are likely candidates for DCO/DOO on the introduction of new rolling stock. Are there any others? Southport and Harrogate are to receive 170s, so may be candidates by the franchise end..

As I understand it on the Calder Valley line, the Rochdale (Vitriol Works to Smithy Bridge) Absolute Block signals have already been replaced and the Hebden Bridge to Milner Royd Absolute/Intermediate Block is also due to be replaced shortly. AFAIK these were the last two sections of non TCB on the Calder Valley line. Leeds to Milner Royd was converted years ago so I am unsure about the reference to Bradford Interchange (however the CP5 plan does also make reference to both a Huddersfield to Bradford resignalling activity and a Bradford Interchange remodelling activity).

Anyway with 4tph new trains through Hebden Bridge and Bradford Interchange, you can be sure the DfT will ensure any necessary work for DOO will be complete in time for the new trains.

By "beyond Lancaster" I assume you are saying that DOO won't be possible on the Barrow/Windermere Northern Connect services?

 

[pemma]

The meeting exposed a number of alarming issues, such as the franchise agreement required a minimum of 50% DCO across the network.

So the RMT didn't read the ITT for the Northern franchise or the Northern franchise agreement which specified that? Isn't it alarming that a trade union can't be bothered to read such documents when they relate to the members they represent?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

So the RMT didn't read the ITT for the Northern franchise or the Northern franchise agreement which specified that? Isn't it alarming that a trade union can't be bothered to read such documents when they relate to the members they represent?

Sounds like SOP for a union

 

[pemma]

150/1 and 323 classes both have droplights which are both used heavily around south manchester

323s are of course leaving the franchise at the end of 2018.
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There's a fair few marginals in Yorkshire and in and around Manchester and Mrs May's popularity wave won't last forever
Attempting this conversion (with the inevitable widespread industrial action that will take place) is, as Sir Humphrey would say, a courageous decision
Batten down the hatches everyone, and stand firm.

I think it could have the opposite effect. I can't see many RMT members voting Conservative, while the Conservatives have some people very good at PR who will make it sound like any disruption passengers are suffering from is the fault of Arriva and the unions and nothing to do with them. Also with Corbyn considering renationalisation and sympathy strikes the Conservatives will likely warn people that Corbyn's plans will result in the whole rail network being shut down whenever there is a dispute with the unions.

 

[NSEFAN]

The Guard does not dispatch the train with DCO. It is entirely the same as DOO, but with the mystical 'second member of staff' on board. That person might have some degree of safety critical responsibility in the event of an emergency, or none at all. Voyagers are not DCO.

As you've touched upon, DCO was invented recently to avoid use of the 'toxic' term DOO, and to try - unsuccessfully - to skirt around the fact that Guards would be downgraded. As far as railway staff and their unions are concerned, there is precious little difference between the two.

I stand corrected. I suppose that proves my point about muddying the waters!

 

[Dave1987]

Well I believe the Tories can kiss goodbye to their majority at the next election. They won some very marginal seats by a mere couple of hundred votes in this area, which helped them to get their very slim majority. It's very very interesting the wording of the management communication to the union, complete contrast to the other dispute.

 

[pemma]

The franchise agreement also requires the ticket gates to be manned by a at least one franchise employee, however Northern feel this wording extends to STM staff, and the DFT aren't bothered so I wouldn't be so sure that they would not be able to get away with using agency or third party staff.

Liverpool Lime St is Northern staff as they previously manned the booths. Other new gatelines will be STM.

Just looked at the franchise agreement and that clause only currently applies for Lime Street and Wigan Wallgate, with it applying to Salford Crescent from 30th November and Bolton, Bradford Forster Square, Halifax and Blackburn from next year.

 

[Carlisle]

So the RMT didn't read the ITT for the Northern franchise or the Northern franchise agreement which specified that? Isn't it alarming that a trade union can't be bothered to read such documents when they relate to the members they represent?

You can be pretty certain the RMT will have been well aware of the Northern ITT, they'll just have hoped along with ASLEF that the ongoing Southern chaos, would lead to the plans being quietly downgraded to allowing drivers merely to release the doors and no more

 

[387star]

Are the 333s DOO compatible?

I imagine an agreement will be reached as if every Northern service is guard operated a strike would be very disruptive

 

[pemma]

You can be pretty certain the RMT will have been well aware of the Northern ITT, they'll just have hoped along with ASLEF that the ongoing Southern chaos would lead to the plans being quietly downgraded to allowing drivers merely to release the doors and no more

The ITT was a revision in what was initially included in the consultation, which proposed DOO and didn't say the operator should plan to have a second member of franchise staff on all services. Apparently the shortlisted bidders pushed for the latter to be included as they thought it would help prevent industrial action.
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I imagine an agreement will be reached as if every Northern service is guard operated a strike would be very disruptive

If Northern announced a proposal for DCO and hypothetically it didn't include any routes operated by Hull or Newcastle based crews, would those crews striking be considered an illegal 'sympathy strike'?

 

[Class 170101]

Easily- if Wikipedia is correct by the end of the franchise they'll have ~170 trains of classes 170,195,319,321,331 and 333, which can (I think 170s can can't they?) run DOO, versus ~185 sprinters. If we assume the newer trains work harder than the sprinters, or complete their journeys faster, it's not unreasonable that slightly less than half the fleet can do 50% of the service.

Class 170, Class 319, Class 321 and Class 333 operated services will need platform funiture fitted for, or staff at stations trained in, DOO as none of these trains have cameras on them and never had them fitted from construction.

Last time I checked Class 170s haven't operate in muliple under DOO either, only singly.

 

[74A]

Class 170, Class 319, Class 321 and Class 333 operated services will need platform funiture fitted for, or staff at stations trained in, DOO as none of these trains have cameras on them and never had them fitted from construction.

Last time I checked Class 170s haven't operate in muliple under DOO either, only singly.

London Overground operate DOO(p) 172s which are quite similar. They have had cameras and in cab screens fitted so I guess the same could be done for the 170

 

[Class 170101]

London Overground operate DOO(p) 172s which are quite similar. They have had cameras and in cab screens fitted so I guess the same could be done for the 170

I doubt retro fitment is that easy as it would probably compromise the crashworthiness of the body structure.

 

[BestWestern]

I doubt retro fitment is that easy as it would probably compromise the crashworthiness of the body structure.

It's generally more case of having the space in the cab. On non-gangway stock it's easier.

 

[Andrew32]

Are the 333s DOO compatible?

I imagine an agreement will be reached as if every Northern service is guard operated a strike would be very disruptive

Yes they are capable of DOO and the triangle is more or less ready for DOO pending some modifications.

When the 333's are remodeled inside with the driving ends being converted into tube style carriages with seats down both sides and standing room in the middle I can hardly see them been guard operated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt retro fitment is that easy as it would probably compromise the crashworthiness of the body structure.

What, bolting cameras onto the outside? No, it wouldn't.

 

[scrapy]

Just looked at the franchise agreement and that clause only currently applies for Lime Street and Wigan Wallgate, with it applying to Salford Crescent from 30th November and Bolton, Bradford Forster Square, Halifax and Blackburn from next year.

Northern have already confirmed that these gatelines will be manned by STM. There are no Northern employees manning the gates at Wigan or trained to do so.

 

[Carlisle]

If Northern announced a proposal for DCO and hypothetically it didn't include any routes operated by Hull or Newcastle based crews, would those crews striking be considered an illegal 'sympathy strike'?

As far as I'm aware every DOO strike in recent times organised by the RMT has involved balloting all their conductor members working for the TOC they're in dispute with

 

[scrapy]

No it wouldn't be illegal as long as they were part of the ballot. What would be illegal is if for example TPE staff joined in.

 

[185]

If Northern announced a proposal for DCO and hypothetically it didn't include any routes operated by Hull or Newcastle based crews, would those crews striking be considered an illegal 'sympathy strike'?

If they were from a different job grade or a different TOC, yes, it could be considered illegal.

Conductor grade applies as one whole unit to the entire company, so a ballot for something like this would generally be the entire conductor grade of Northern.

Compared to the Southern dispute, do I think this one will get messy? Yes.
Worse? Definitely.

 

[Carlisle]

Compared to the Southern dispute, do I think this one will get messy? Yes.
Worse? Definitely.

Presumably the law allows RMT or any union for that matter to prolong a dispute for as long they want , (potentially years) I think that's the weakness in the law the industry will be up against

 

[Dave1987]

Presumably there's nothing whatsoever illegal if the RMT or any union for that matter prolong a dispute for a long they want , (potentially years) I think that's the weakness in the law the industry is up against here

Hmmm I seem to remember the government has tried to push through laws that basically prevent any strikes happening at all. I'm kinda gathering you believe the unions should just accept anything they are given.

There would be no need for any strikes or any dispute if the company were allowed to accept the compromises the unions want to offer but the government ain't interested. I believe this dispute will show that the government are pulling the strings and not the companies.