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Arriva Rail North DOO

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furnessvale

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Surely the fact that the government picks up the bill and is therefore loosing money only further supports calls for the franchise to be taken under government control, indirectly supporting re-nationalization.
Alternatively, and more realistic, there will be calls for cost cutting within the most highly subsidised TOC in the country.

At a minimum I could see lightly used lines losing sunday service, or even line closures based on subsidy level.
 
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yorksrob

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Alternatively, and more realistic, there will be calls for cost cutting within the most highly subsidised TOC in the country.

At a minimum I could see lightly used lines losing sunday service, or even line closures based on subsidy level.

Which is precisely why ending the strike and getting Saturday revenue back up ought to be top priority. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a priority for any of the protagonists in this dispute.
 

pemma

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When the strikes first started though, they were relatively infrequent and on differing days so didn't cause too much inconvenience. Now, some lines haven't seen a service on a Saturday since August 18th which becomes more inconvenient. I do wonder if the strikes had started out at every Saturday back in March 2017 whether we would have had a conclusion by now

Remember Saturday trains are usually busiest during December and that is when a lot of people who rarely travel by train experience what it's like to travel by train - Northern had a huge incentive to try and ensure they provided a good service on Saturdays in December. If striking every Saturday in November and December didn't make enough progress in the RMT's view then I doubt progress will ever be made by striking.
 

pemma

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Which is precisely why ending the strike and getting Saturday revenue back up ought to be top priority.

The problem is for the strike to end either the RMT or DfT have to back down and DfT don't want a trade union dictating which franchises can and can't have DCO and the RMT don't want DfT saying a franchise has to implement DCO. The way things are the moment I think the only way the strikes will end is if Arriva hand back the franchise and a temporary public owned franchise take over. I don't think that will cause DfT to change their minds about wanting DCO on Northern but I think it will mean they push it back until the franchise is re-let preventing RMT members going on strike over DCO until the franchise is re-let.
 

CN75

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The other option for Arriva is to run a better strike contingency service. For instance, Northern could reduce the standards required for training and the route knowledge for guards since the TOCs set their own standards. Or Arriva could use stronger incentives to get more stand-in guards from their other businesses involved. SWR, Anglia, Southern have all managed to run a more effective service using these methods. Perhaps this is the plan for the new year?
 

northernchris

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If striking every Saturday in November and December didn't make enough progress in the RMT's view then I doubt progress will ever be made by striking.

Problem is RMT have backed themselves in to a corner now, because if they stop the Saturday strikes it will appear they are conceding, so have to fight on.

The way things are the moment I think the only way the strikes will end is if Arriva hand back the franchise and a temporary public owned franchise take over. I don't think that will cause DfT to change their minds about wanting DCO on Northern but I think it will mean they push it back until the franchise is re-let preventing RMT members going on strike over DCO until the franchise is re-let.

I wouldn't be surprised if Arriva do hand the franchise back. I also wonder though if the RMT are hanging on in the hope the mess that is Brexit forces a General Election, as Labour would have a strong chance of winning. Then JC can wave his magic money tree around and the dispute will be over that way
 

Starmill

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Alternatively, and more realistic, there will be calls for cost cutting within the most highly subsidised TOC in the country.
At the moment, the subsidy is increasing not decreasing in line with the plan. This is almost certainly down to the declining standard of service, and the non-delivery of improvements. In other words the government has made the "problem" of subsidy worse itself.
 

hwl

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Alternatively, and more realistic, there will be calls for cost cutting within the most highly subsidised TOC in the country.

At a minimum I could see lightly used lines losing sunday service, or even line closures based on subsidy level.
With just over 2/3rds of the Northern cost picked up by DfT and ~ 1/3 by passengers they need to focus on getting more fare paid passengers and reducing the cost of service provision...
 
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Mogster

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Doesn’t really hide the underlying political motivation behind the current action does he...

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/mick-cash-new-year-message/
"Throughout 2018 RMT members have fought for the principles of a publicly-owned, safe and accessible transport network for all. In 2019 we will be stepping up that campaign as the Tory Government teeters on the brink and the prospect of sweeping away years of private greed and austerity ‎grows by the day.

"I want to pay particular tribute to RMT members on Northern and South Western Railway who will be striking again this weekend ‎and on New Year's Eve in a long-running battle to put public safety before private profit. They are a credit to the entire trade union movement.
 
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pemma

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I wouldn't be surprised if Arriva do hand the franchise back. I also wonder though if the RMT are hanging on in the hope the mess that is Brexit forces a General Election, as Labour would have a strong chance of winning. Then JC can wave his magic money tree around and the dispute will be over that way

If Arriva don't hand back the franchise and Labour get in to government before DCO is introduced I wouldn't be surprised if they scale back DCO plans oppose to axe it. Labour don't have a history of fully implementing promises they make while in opposition when they get in to government and they'll probably argue 'no new DOO' doesn't include axing DCO already written in to a franchise agreement by a Conservative government.
 

HH

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Mick Cash said:
...the union has made it absolutely clear that we will not accept any attempt to undermine our members' standard of living...

This from the union that supports Brexit!
 

pemma

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This from the union that supports Brexit!

Don't worry the RMT will still demand pay rises at or above inflation even for members working for a nationalised rail system in a country suffering from a recession where all public sector workers are on pay freezes, if they are lucky and losing their jobs if they are unlucky.
 

PR1Berske

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Doesn’t really hide the underlying political motivation behind the current action does he...

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/mick-cash-new-year-message/
So ordinary hard working people are being held to ransom, not because of DOO, not because of changes in job roles, not because of passenger safety, but because of partisan politics.
Oh what fun it would be for the strike to be ruled invalid because the reasons declared by the RMT are different from the original matter on which the vote was held!
 

CaptainHaddock

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Carlisle

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In other words the government has made the "problem" of subsidy worse itself.
Government hasn’t made it worse by itself, a combination of Network Rail and northern mismanagement alongside a long term strategic campaign of industrial action by the RMT have done so
 

Starmill

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Government hasn’t made it worse by itself, a combination of Network Rail and northern mismanagement alongside a long term strategic campaign of industrial action by the RMT have done so
The DfT's tender and Network Rail's failings are the main causes of the problems with performance, reliability and delivery. These are ultimately the responsibility of the government. I certainly don't absolve the company of their responsibility, they seem to be doing flat out nothing to make rail travel more attractive. Doubtless there have been some policy choices in their direct control that have made the problems worse, not least with regards to the speed of price rises, which should have been slower, ans a totally botched introduction of Penalty Fares, that ignores their own rules. However, it is less clear exactly what they've done to contribute towards the mess.
Regardless, on the whole, I would say that by most measures (targets and performance, reputation and growth trajectory and financial and commercial), the franchise is in a worse position now than it was on the first day of the Arriva Rail North tenure. This is a shared failure for everyone.
 
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Mag_seven

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Doesn’t really hide the underlying political motivation behind the current action does he...

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/mick-cash-new-year-message/

"I want to pay particular tribute to RMT members on Northern and South Western Railway who will be striking again this weekend ‎and on New Year's Eve in a long-running battle to put public safety before private profit. They are a credit to the entire trade union movement.

I suggest that a union that can negotiate a deal without having to resort to strike action is a credit to the trade union movement.
 

northernchris

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Regardless, on the whole, I would say that by most measures (targets and performance, reputation and growth trajectory and financial and commercial), the franchise is in a worse position now than it was on the first day of the Arriva Rail North tenure. This is a shared failure for everyone.

Northern has certainly deteriorated since the Serco/Abellio days, although disruption during transformation is to be expected, just not on the scale we're seeing now. The strike is a direct result of the DfT, although the way both Northern and the RMT have conducted themselves is appalling. The only things I can see Northern are guilty of is the lack of traincrew to cover the timetable (and they aren't the only operator guilty of this) and introducing the penalty fares when the service standard isn't where it should be. Just about everything else comes down to Network Rail or the delays in the 769s being ready
 

yorkie

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The RMT have to take most of the blame for the strikes, because they are making untrue statements and are objecting to a method of working that has proven to be safe and will lead to staff being more visible, not less visible.

However Northern's management and organisation is very poor in many areas.

Both Northern and the RMT seem to have declared a war against passengers, and passengers are fed up with both organisations.
 

HowardGWR

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Both Northern and the RMT seem to have declared a war against passengers, and passengers are fed up with both organisations.
How has Northern 'declared war against passengers'? Northern hasn't done anything except sign a contract with DfT. You could argue that Northern by doing so 'declared war' against RMT, but I think that is self-evidently ludicrous. Nobody is being proposed by Northern to lose their job; on the contrary, they have said they intend to increase staffing.

When Northern propose redundancies, that's when it might, stress might, justify union action, and only after negotiation had failed. It hasn't started yet and that's because no such redundancies are proposed.
 

pemma

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When Northern propose redundancies, that's when it might, stress might, justify union action, and only after negotiation had failed. It hasn't started yet and that's because no such redundancies are proposed.

I think lengthy strike action is likely to increase the chance of redundancies. Northern have offered the RMT the option of guards remaining on the guard grade with annual pay reviews but the RMT didn't think that was good enough and started a dispute, presumably in doing so rejecting Northern's offer. As the industrial action is already happening Northern aren't exactly going to be worried about making guards redundant and offering new OBS vacancies causing industrial action.
 

yorksrob

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The problem is for the strike to end either the RMT or DfT have to back down and DfT don't want a trade union dictating which franchises can and can't have DCO and the RMT don't want DfT saying a franchise has to implement DCO. The way things are the moment I think the only way the strikes will end is if Arriva hand back the franchise and a temporary public owned franchise take over. I don't think that will cause DfT to change their minds about wanting DCO on Northern but I think it will mean they push it back until the franchise is re-let preventing RMT members going on strike over DCO until the franchise is re-let.

This is certainly true. As I believe I said at the time, Northern were wrong from a strategic point of view, to switch to every Saturday, as any change would automatically look like a climbdown, whereas with previous random days, they had the freedom to call strikes more or less as they saw fit (not that I particularly agree with the action - that's just how I would see it if, for example, my own union were engaged in a long term dispute).

The sensible compromise to me would be for both sides to agree on DO/GC. The RMT would have to concede it's "no change" standpoint and DfT would have to concede its DOO at all costs position.
 

Carlisle

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The sensible compromise to me would be for both sides to agree on DO/GC
That’s never been acknowledged to my understanding other than Scotrail and RMT pretending they’d compromised by any senior figures in the industry as a reasonable compromise, it’s traditional guard operation with a very minor tweak
 

Carlisle

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The sensible compromise to me would be for both sides to agree on DO/GC
That’s never been acknowledged to my understanding other than Scotrail (face saving excercise) and RMT (pretending they’d compromised) by any senior figures in the industry as a reasonable compromise for DOO, it’s simply preserving traditional guard operation with a very minor tweak
 
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yorksrob

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That’s never been acknowledged to my understanding other than Scotrail and RMT pretending they’d compromised by any senior figures in the industry as a reasonable compromise, it’s traditional guard operation with a very minor tweak

What's not sensible, if it gets the trains running, uses the same staff that we have anyway and provides the added benefot of passengers not having to wait in the rain while the guard makes their way down to release the door ?

The only benefit lost is the ability to operate during this un-quantified number of occasions when the rest of the train/infrastructure and crew are available to operate the train but the guard isn't.
 

Carlisle

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What's not sensible, if it gets the trains running, uses the same staff that we have anyway and provides the added benefot of passengers not having to wait in the rain while the guard makes their way down to release the door ?

The only benefit lost is the ability to operate during this un-quantified number of occasions when the rest of the train/infrastructure and crew are available to operate the train but the guard isn't.
I understand it might be the way the industry ultimately decides to go, I’m merely stating that it’s not a compomise , it’s capitulation, let’s not pretend otherwise, all the costs and constraints of traditional guard operation remain
 
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