Arriva Rail North DOO

[455driver]

The picket line at Manchester Piccadilly was very short this morning - 8 guards and the RMT rep out of however many guards are based there. I'm guessing most of them prefer to spend the day at home than picketing.

There are laws limiting the number of pickets allowed, I am not sure how many are allowed but it is definitely in single figures.

 

[455driver]

Absolutely. Today they hurt Northernrail by striking, over the next few weeks they'll be helping them out by working rest days,

Oh the hypocrisy creeps in everywhere these days.

If the staff decide to work overtime or rest days that will be because they are helping out the Train Crew Supervisors (or whatever they are called on Northern), the whole point of a strike is to hurt the company not the people trying to get the work covered!

 

[the sniper]

The picket line at Manchester Piccadilly was very short this morning - 8 guards and the RMT rep out of however many guards are based there. I'm guessing most of them prefer to spend the day at home than picketing.

It specifies '6 outside a workplace' so Piccadilly station mustn't be a workplace in the RMT's view.

:roll:

Literally damned either way...

I don't understand why you've lowered yourself to trolling over this issue. You're far more sensible and constructive when talking about other subjects.

 

[Carlisle]

:roll:

Literally damned either way...

I don't understand why you've lowered yourself to trolling over this issue. You're far more sensible and constructive when talking about other subjects.

Simply not agreeing with/towing the union line on virtually every matter isn't necessarily an indication people are in any way anti staff/ workers rights/ railway etc, it's just one of the benefits of living in a democracy.

 

[the sniper]

Simply not agreeing with/towing the union line on virtually every matter isn't necessarily an indication people are in any way anti staff/ workers rights/ railway etc, it's just one of the benefits of living in a democracy.

Did you even read my post? Or jcollins post? I can't see that your post is at all relevant to what I said.

I honestly don't care if he hates staff, loves DOO or visa versa. The issue I'm raising is the ridiculousness of making snide remarks about the lack of picketers, the making a snide remark because there were too many picketers... What's the point?

I honestly think he's better than that, that he's capable proper discussion and not just a provocateur, adding to the noise that make these DOO threads so toxic. Are petty, pointless, poking posts like that conducive to good discussion? They really aren't...

 

[scrapy]

Absolutely. Today they hurt Northernrail by striking, over the next few weeks they'll be helping them out by working rest days,

Oh the hypocrisy creeps in everywhere these days.

Obviously you don't understand the RMTs strategy. They know full well that this likely to be a long drawn out dispute. They also understand that their members financial situations and that losing considerable amounts of money over a long period of time is not sustainable. If they wanted to work to rule, they could. It was voted for by members. By working a Sunday or a rest day staff can usually cover any money lost by striking.

The RMT will not significantly hurt Arriva by striking or working to rule. Any major financial loss will be covered by the government either directly or through an improvement package as Southern have had. Trains would usually get covered if someone didn't work a rest day anyway.

What the RMT need is free publicity off the media to keep the DOO subject from going away. By striking they get that. By someone working or not working a rest day they would not get any publicity. The DFT and Arriva would love it if the subject could just be brushed under the carpet. By keeping the focus on DOO way the RMT can gain support for their argument. That is why some of their media released are worded the way they are as the national media will pick up on them. It amuses me that naive people on this forum pick up on any bias in RMT reports. In the same way Ryanairs new baggage policy and other media releases in the past have got them lots of free publicity. If Mick Cash wanted to write a factually balanced press release in perfect queens English he is more than capable but it would not get any further than the RMT website as the media wouldn't be interested.

 

[northwichcat]

Did you even read my post? Or jcollins post? I can't see that your post is at all relevant to what I said.

I honestly don't care if he hates staff, loves DOO or visa versa. The issue I'm raising is the ridiculousness of making snide remarks about the lack of picketers, the making a snide remark because there were too many picketers... What's the point?

I honestly think he's better than that, that he's capable proper discussion and not just a provocateur, adding to the noise that make these DOO threads so toxic. Are petty, pointless, poking posts like that conducive to good discussion? They really aren't...

I honestly thought there would be more guards on a picket line. I'm aware with strikes in many industries that not all striking staff appear on picket lines, so rail staff shouldn't take offence at a comment that striking staff perhaps preferred to spend the day at home. It is obvious from various threads that while many staff are against DOO they don't all fully support the approach the RMT is using.

I wasn't aware of the number of staff allowed on a picket line so checked it out and mentioned what I found. I do agree with the person who said how the staff on the picket line act is more important than the number on there.

 

[northwichcat]

OWhat the RMT need is free publicity off the media to keep the DOO subject from going away. By striking they get that. By someone working or not working a rest day they would not get any publicity. The DFT and Arriva would love it if the subject could just be brushed under the carpet. By keeping the focus on DOO way the RMT can gain support for their argument. That is why some of their media released are worded the way they are as the national media will pick up on them. It amuses me that naive people on this forum pick up on any bias in RMT reports. In the same way Ryanairs new baggage policy and other media releases in the past have got them lots of free publicity. If Mick Cash wanted to write a factually balanced press release in perfect queens English he is more than capable but it would not get any further than the RMT website as the media wouldn't be interested.

The issue I have is there are multiple different disputes - Merseyrail, Northern and Southern. Each operator has proposed something different and how both staff and passengers are affected is different in each case. Trying to create one big strike day means the media want to do one story on DOO disputes so we end up with misinformation. For example, Northern are not getting rid of guards. I expect Northern to require more guards for services like Chester and Buxton than they do at present, given those routes are unlikely to become DCO and there will be frequency enhancements. Yet I've heard numerous people say how are the people at stations like Mobberley going to buy tickets if they sack guards - maybe the same way as they do now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yet I've heard numerous people say how are the people at stations like Mobberley going to buy tickets if they sack guards - maybe the same way as they do now?

To be fair I believe TVMs and PFs are the way forward, and not before time, either. So the guards will mainly just be doing the doors etc.

 

[northwichcat]

To be fair I believe TVMs and PFs are the way forward, and not before time, either. So the guards will mainly just be doing the doors etc.

Well it seems that will happen around the Manchester and Leeds area. However, if there's 5 TVMs flagged up as non-operational and one is Humphrey Park, I think it's a safe bet to presume Humphrey Park will be number 5 in order of priority to be fixed and any other TVMs which become out-of-order at busier stations in the mean time will jump the queue if they get reported before Humphrey Park gets fixed.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

To be fair I believe TVMs and PFs are the way forward, and not before time, either. So the guards will mainly just be doing the doors etc.

Not if Arriva and the DfT have anything to do with it. Remind me what the strikes are about?......

 

[FordFocus]

To be fair I believe TVMs and PFs are the way forward, and not before time, either. So the guards will mainly just be doing the doors etc.

Arriva Trains Northern of many years ago tried PFs along some lines out of Leeds which didn't work. Abellio/Serco Northern have tried the 'buy before you board' revenue tactics with the infamous £80 "stay out of court" penalty fares but its a massive culture change from people so used to been able to buy tickets on the train.

The DfT don't want anyone else bar the driver on trains, so no guards doing doors.


A side note about picketing. During the RMT strike a few years ago Piccadilly could only be picketed on the main road at the bottom of the approach road as it was the first piece of suitable picketing ground not owned by Network Rail.

 

[kw12]

Obviously you don't understand the RMTs strategy. They know full well that this likely to be a long drawn out dispute. They also understand that their members financial situations and that losing considerable amounts of money over a long period of time is not sustainable. If they wanted to work to rule, they could. It was voted for by members. By working a Sunday or a rest day staff can usually cover any money lost by striking.

The staff who were already intending to work those Sundays or rest days will have lost out on what their overall pay would have been without striking.

Where some staff work Sundays or rest days that they were not originally intending to work then other staff will lose out by not working as many Sundays and rest days as they had intended (as the overall number of staff needed for Sunday and rest day working will not have increased because of the strikes), on top of any money lost from striking.

The RMT will not significantly hurt Arriva by striking or working to rule.

Then why hold the recent strikes over two days instead of one?

What the RMT need is free publicity off the media to keep the DOO subject from going away. By striking they get that. By someone working or not working a rest day they would not get any publicity.

Where the media publish stories about the strikes they generally include statements from the TOCs in addition to input from the RMT. So this is free publicity for the TOCs as well as RMT.

The DFT and Arriva would love it if the subject could just be brushed under the carpet. By keeping the focus on DOO way the RMT can gain support for their argument.

Support from whom?

Is this strategy of obtaining free publicity working? How much is support for the RMT increasing with each strike?

 

[swissrailpassion]

I think these strikes are unacceptable. The passengers are inconvenienced whilst staff have an unpaid holiday. Staff should only strike as a last resort and we are not anywhere close to that in Northern's case.

 

[Eccles1983]

I think these strikes are unacceptable. The passengers are inconvenienced whilst staff have an unpaid holiday. Staff should only strike as a last resort and we are not anywhere close to that in Northern's case.

Democracy and human rights are a real pain to you I suppose.

It's a good job the law of this land isn't interested in what you think, with regards to withdrawal of labour.

 

[northwichcat]

Democracy and human rights are a real pain to you I suppose.

It's a good job the law of this land isn't interested in what you think, with regards to withdrawal of labour.

And yet there's many democratic countries with excellent human rights records where the RMT's Northern strike would not be allowed. In other countries staff providing an essential service (which sometimes includes public transport) are allowed to strike but a union withdrawing all labour at the same time on the same day would be illegal.

swissrailpassion is quite right that the RMT's claim it's a 'last resort' is invalid. Remember they tried to call a strike when the Northern franchise consultation was released by DfT - so they wanted to strike at the first hint a DOO proposal might be on the cards. It was only after they found out a strike against a potential plan by a future employer would be illegal that they backed down.

 

[Eccles1983]

And yet there's many democratic countries with excellent human rights records where the RMT's Northern strike would not be allowed. In other countries staff providing an essential service (which sometimes includes public transport) are allowed to strike but a union withdrawing all labour at the same time on the same day would be illegal.

swissrailpassion is quite right that the RMT's claim it's a 'last resort' is invalid. Remember they tried to call a strike when the Northern franchise consultation was released by DfT - so they wanted to strike at the first hint a DOO proposal might be on the cards. It was only after they found out a strike against a potential plan by a future employer would be illegal that they backed down.

Im not sure what point you are getting at if any.

This country withdrawal of labour is permitted if done according to the union and employment laws. And as a last resort is not laid down in law. Its a nice thought but holds no practical application except in the PR war.

I dont think the strikes will achieve anything. But I will defend the rights of any workers wanting to withdraw labour legally.

 

[northwichcat]

Im not sure what point you are getting at if any.

The fact that another poster complained about the inconvenience to passengers and your response was to being up democracy and human rights. The inconvenience to passengers can easily be reduced without being undemocratic or not giving human rights to workers.

This country withdrawal of labour is permitted if done according to the union and employment laws. And as a last resort is not laid down in law. Its a nice thought but holds no practical application except in the PR war.

The more unions like the RMT attempt to cause maximum disruption over any kind of dispute, the more likely politicians are to change strike laws. If the RMT take the ****, then members of all trade unions could be made to suffer. Even some of the most left wing Labour politicians are in favour of DOO on Merseyrail on condition that all guards are found alternative employment. When even some Corbynites support DOO if the conditions are right, the RMT will have little support in the House of Commons.

 

[Jamesrob637]

More bloody strikes again. On weekdays too. Tuesday 03 and Thursday 05 October. Suppose having them on weekends would be a damp squib unless there's a really major event on. Mind you, surely either United or City must have a home match most weekends between now and May '18.

If the 07:03 runs from Heaton Chapel to Piccadilly and the 17:21 runs back from Piccadilly to Heaton Chapel, just having to get up half an hour earlier isn't the end of the world. Hope Northern have the decency to put timetables up sooner rather than later.

 

[northwichcat]

The strikes coincide with the Conservative Party conference in Manchester. Not that any Conservative MPs will use Northern to get to the conference and if they arrive at Piccadilly on a Virgin service they'll probably be guided to the Fairfield St exit for a taxi, rather than walk past the RMT picket line on the station approach.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern and DfT haven't said much in response to the strike action - until now

Northern has embarked on a programme to modernise its services that will help make the North a better place to live, work and visit. By 2020 Northern is committed to:

Delivering better journeys with new and upgraded trains and improved station facilities
Improved customer service, with more people to help you on your journey than ever before
Keeping you safe and secure, with more visible staff on trains and stations – day and night
Our plans include 98 new trains, 243 upgraded trains and the recruitment of more people from across our business. Our new trains are now in production, the first ten of our upgraded trains are already out on the network and over 450 new people have joined the Northern team.

To bring our improvements to life, we are proposing some changes to the conductor role to give you a better service. We are clear there will be no job or pay cuts as a result of our proposed changes, however the RMT has entered into dispute with Northern, which has resulted in several days of strike action, so far, in 2017.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/industrial-action

These rail companies have given guarantees to guards that they will not lose their jobs or any pay.

On top of that, they want to work with staff to implement changes that will deliver the improvements passengers want.

Although modern trains can be operated by a single person, the union maintain that in no circumstances should a train leave the station without a member of the RMT on board.

Despite a second person being rostered on many of the services, and more people than ever before working on the railway, they are seeking to turn the clock back on thirty years of modernisation.

I cannot condone the actions of a trade union that is holding passengers to ransom in this way.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4519549/chris-grayling-blasts-union-strikes/

 

[323235]

Just because a passenger train can be operated by a single person doesn't mean they should be.

 

[northwichcat]

Question is if a service was advertised as only having a driver on board due to a staff shortage, how many people would wait on the platform for an hour for a service with a second member of staff on board, or watch a brand new 195 without a guard leave running an express service and catch the following 150 with a guard on a stopping service?

 

[HH]

Just because a passenger train can be operated by a single person doesn't mean they should be.

True, but meaningless. Just substitute a word or two and the flaw is easy to see:

"Just because a car can be operated by a single person doesn't mean they should be".

Or alternatively

"Just because a passenger train can be operated by more than a single person doesn't mean they should be."

You should maybe join the RMT Press Office. I'm sure you'd go down a storm there; they like meaningless statements.

 

[FordFocus]

Northern and DfT haven't said much in response to the strike action - until now



https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/industrial-action



https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4519549/chris-grayling-blasts-union-strikes/

Your pretty good at posting the franchise agreements and ITT on this forum repeatedly. Remind me what percentage of trains were needed to be DOO with no second person aboard? 50% was it?

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Your pretty good at posting the franchise agreements and ITT on this forum repeatedly. Remind me what percentage of trains were needed to be DOO with no second person aboard? 50% was it?

No, it was zero.

The only obligation is to operate a percentage of trains under DOO/DCO conditions. The TOC can have as many staff on board as it wishes.

 

[northwichcat]

No, it was zero.

The only obligation is to operate a percentage of trains under DOO/DCO conditions. The TOC can have as many staff on board as it wishes.

Well there's no maximum. However, the non-DCO services must still have a minimum of one driver and one guard and the DCO services must have a driver and must be diagrammed to have a second member of franchise staff on board. The difference being the non-DCO would be cancelled if the guard phones in sick, the DCO service could still run if the second person phones in sick.

It's also 50% of revenue earning service mileage not 50% of services, so if Northern switch semi-fast long distance services they'll probably be just as many services operating with guards as now, given all the extra services which will be introduced. Hence, no redundancies sounds logical.

 

[Camden]

Where has the Merseyrail DOO thread gone?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well there's no maximum. However, the non-DCO services must still have a minimum of one driver and one guard and the DCO services must have a driver and must be diagrammed to have a second member of franchise staff on board....

If that is true, Northern's 'vision' of services in their franchise may breach the franchise agreement, as they have stated, twice, in separate staff briefings that they intend to have "some metropolitan services" running with a second member of staff, implying (or at the least allowing inference) that the majority of that 'service group' won't have a second member of staff.

 

[northwichcat]

If that is true, Northern's 'vision' of services in their franchise may breach the franchise agreement, as they have stated, twice, in separate staff briefings that they intend to have "some metropolitan services" running with a second member of staff, implying (or at the least allowing inference) that the majority of that 'service group' won't have a second member of staff.

I'd question whether 'most metropolitan services' would be operated by DOO compatible stock. Even with electrification and new stock they'll be a large number of Sprinter operated services going in to Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle etc.

I also wouldn't interpret anything on the subject too literally at the moment. One of the alleged reasons for the RMT dispute is because Arriva said all services will be diagrammed to have a second member of staff on board and the RMT claim that was a guarantee of all services having guards and also a guarantee that services will be cancelled if the guard is unavailable, which they now say Arriva have backtracked on. If that's true I imagine Arriva don't want to say anything that will infer that every service will have 2 people on board even if they only plan to operate services with just a driver in the event of a staff shortage.

Of course when an operator can claim a staff shortage occurs is debatable. Would they run a service without the second member of staff because he/she is delayed on an inbound service? Would they have to meet targets for keeping staffing levels sufficient to have sufficient second members of staff for all services? Will they check how many second members of staff are already on holiday on a given date before approving holidays to ensure there are sufficient staff scheduled to come in on any given date? Those are questions the unions need to ask but as they are trying to go down a completely different route to the TOC I doubt they've even asked them.