Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

Also the link you've provided says the survival rate is so low because of people suffering cardiac arrests in the US not getting CPR quite often due to bystanders not knowing what to do. So you've actually provided evidence that a driver (or passenger) suffering a cardiac arrest is more likely to survive a heart attack if the guard knows CPR.

There are a lot of misconceptions out there about what CPR is for. CPR generally will not cause someone's heart/breathing to restart or correct an incorrect heart rhythm, with a few exceptions e.g. drowning where it can force water out. You need an AED to correct an incorrect heart rhythm or (in very few cases) to restart it.

What CPR does is to keep oxygen going into the body and blood moving around so the brain does not die. On that basis it's really important that as many people as possible on that train, certainly the driver and guard[1], stuck in a snowdrift/landslip on the S&C in high winds[2] can do it, because it's utterly physically exhausting (as much so as going for a run) and generally must be carried on until help arrives.

[1] I know they need to protect the train/line as a primary responsibility, but once that's done.

[2] That's my entirely plausible scenario for rescue potentially being an hour or more away on a train.

 

[driver_m]

If the driver has a heart attack he will almost certainly be dead. Only 6% of such victims in the US survive it.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150630135103.htm

I can't imagine the stats will be much better in the UK. Must we install defibrillator equipment in every train? Dangerous stuff to operate too. How many drivers have heart attacks at the controls each year?

Just one other thought: what medical checks are carried out on drivers? If any have a BP of over 150 : 100 and are overweight, they should be taken off duty, IMO and immediately put on BP medicine and a diet. This is a disease so easily avoided.

I don't think guards come into this potential issue at all.

Our trains on VTWC have defibrillators on board and from what I've been told, the instructions with them are brilliant. Tell you exactly what to do. We do get checked for blood pressure and heart ECGs at medicals and anything unusual will see us taken off immediately.

 

[HowardGWR]

Our trains on VTWC have defibrillators on board and from what I've been told, the instructions with them are brilliant. Tell you exactly what to do. We do get checked for blood pressure and heart ECGs at medicals and anything unusual will see us taken off immediately.

The last sentence of yours is very encouraging and very assuring. I see the first part as 'very nice to have' but not essential.

I'll bet the checks for HGV and bus drivers, taxi drivers, are not so stringent and we see what happens when one of them has a seizure or blackout (remember Glasgow St George's square?).

 

[pemma]

I'll bet the checks for HGV and bus drivers, taxi drivers, are not so stringent

There's some cowboy bus operators around that don't even do a criminal records check on drivers. One former operator (GHA Coaches) let at least two drivers get jobs without the check - apparently on the basis they worked for the company before and that had severe consequences when one of those got involved in a road rage incident and another assaulted a driver working for another company, who GHA had started a bus war against. If they can't even manage the legally required criminal records check then I think the chance of any optional tests being done is nil.

However, if the driver collapses bus passengers are more likely to be able to do something to stop a bus or to avoid it crashing in to something than train passengers, who wouldn't even notice the driver has collapsed until it's too late. Obviously with lorries there's usually no-one else on board.

I think this is having less and less relevance in relation to the role of a guard on Northern services though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's some cowboy bus operators around that don't even do a criminal records check on drivers.

Depending what work they do they may well not be entitled to do so, or at least only to do the Basic DBS Check anyone can do on anyone who consents including themselves.

 

[pemma]

Depending what work they do they may well not be entitled to do so, or at least only to do the Basic DBS Check anyone can do on anyone who consents including themselves.

I thought any public transport provider has to presume they'll be some 'vulnerable passengers' like children or disabled people who travel on their services at some point, even if they aren't providing a school service or a service specifically for disabled people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought any public transport provider has to presume they'll be some 'vulnerable passengers' like children or disabled people who travel on their services at some point, even if they aren't providing a school service or a service specifically for disabled people.

A bus is a shop on wheels selling transport.

Supermarkets (being the classic example on here) cannot DBS till staff (other than the Basic check as noted) just because they might serve a child once in a while.

 

[pemma]

A bus is a shop on wheels selling transport.

Supermarkets (being the classic example on here) cannot DBS till staff (other than the Basic check as noted) just because they might serve a child once in a while.

They won't be locked in the supermarket with the doors only being opened when the cashier presses a door release button though and even if they are the supermarket is stuck in a fixed location.

 

[BurtonM]

Utterly appalling.

One word: Moorgate.

 

[YorkshireLad]

Timetables are out

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike

For the first time on a strike day:

• A service between Retford and Lincoln
• A service between Newcastle and Morpeth

Unfortunately the timetables for the Lincoln to Sheffield route are the worst they've been on strike days with the first service not getting into Sheffield until 09:48ish and the last train leaving a hour earlier then it has been in the past

 

[pemma]

I notice they are saying no ticket acceptance on Metrolink opposed to only monthly and longer season tickets being accepted on Metrolink.

 

[pemma]

Victoria-Stalybridge shuttles have been extended to Greenfield this evening due to a 'major incident' on A670.

 

[Eccles1983]

Victoria-Stalybridge shuttles have been extended to Greenfield this evening due to a 'major incident' on A670.

The signallers job at diggle has just increased ten fold then.

They should of ran it to marden as its easier to use the loop there for turnarounds.

 

[Chester1]

Will Arriva now push for a Southern style DOO deal? It will be hard for ASLEF to oppose it elsewhere. The Northern RMT strike was noticably smaller yesterday too.

 

[pemma]

Will Arriva now push for a Southern style DOO deal? It will be hard for ASLEF to oppose it elsewhere. The Northern RMT strike was noticably smaller yesterday too.

It needs to be remembered ASLEF haven't entered in to dispute with Northern and why should they? Northern don't plan to introduce it for another 2 years yet.

 

[Eccles1983]

Will Arriva now push for a Southern style DOO deal? It will be hard for ASLEF to oppose it elsewhere. The Northern RMT strike was noticably smaller yesterday too.

It will be far easier to oppose since non of the drivers are already driving doo (p)

Southern was never winnable. Merseyrail isnt.

Northern is very winnable due to traction and station layouts. There is no chance or retrofitting anything into the units they have now. And the new ones are not normal method of agreed work. So the company needs to agree far more than aslef does.

 

[pemma]

Northern is very winnable due to traction and station layouts. There is no chance or retrofitting anything into the units they have now. And the new ones are not normal method of agreed work. So the company needs to agree far more than aslef does.

But like has been mentioned in the Southern thread it makes no logical sense to oppose DOO on 2 car workings when you accept it on 10 car workings elsewhere.

 

[Chester1]

It will be far easier to oppose since non of the drivers are already driving doo (p)

Southern was never winnable. Merseyrail isnt.

Northern is very winnable due to traction and station layouts. There is no chance or retrofitting anything into the units they have now. And the new ones are not normal method of agreed work. So the company needs to agree far more than aslef does.

Pressumably they will need to recruit new drivers to cope with running more services + natural turnover? Can't they just put DOO in the contracts of new drivers as a take it or leave it offer and then assign them to drive the new stock? ASLEF has conceeded the principle now and arguing it was a ToC specific deal will be terrible PR.

 

[Eccles1983]

But like has been mentioned in the Southern thread it makes no logical sense to oppose DOO on 2 car workings when you accept it on 10 car workings elsewhere.

I'll wait for you to show me where it has been accepted anywhere in Northern. Its certainly not in my or anyones contract. And there lies the issue. Southern drivers were snookered by the acceptance on certain routes.

Pressumably they will need to recruit new drivers to cope with running more services + natural turnover? Can't they just put DOO in the contracts of new drivers as a take it or leave it offer and then assign them to drive the new stock? ASLEF has conceeded the principle now and arguing it was a ToC specific deal will be terrible PR.

No.

The union simply wouldnt accept drivers on different contracts across the grade. It would bring an instant dispute. Furthermore it would make rostering a minefield having a split working arrangement for drivers. You'd never get the route knowledge or traction knowledge as the instructors would all be on the non doo contracts and refuse to sign the traction.

Logistically it would be a nightmare.

 

[Clip]

No.

The union simply wouldnt accept drivers on different contracts across the grade. It would bring an instant dispute. Furthermore it would make rostering a minefield having a split working arrangement for drivers. You'd never get the route knowledge or traction knowledge as the instructors would all be on the non doo contracts and refuse to sign the traction.

Logistically it would be a nightmare.

Are all northern drivers on the same contracts since it was merged to form a big old toc?

 

[Chester1]

I'll wait for you to show me where it has been accepted anywhere in Northern. Its certainly not in my or anyones contract. And there lies the issue. Southern drivers were snookered by the acceptance on certain routes.

No.

The union simply wouldnt accept drivers on different contracts across the grade. It would bring an instant dispute. Furthermore it would make rostering a minefield having a split working arrangement for drivers. You'd never get the route knowledge or traction knowledge as the instructors would all be on the non doo contracts and refuse to sign the traction.

Logistically it would be a nightmare.

An instant dispute wouldn't matter to Arriva if the government pays for the cost. Could drivers leggally refuse to train new drivers if the ToC is not imposing DOO on existing staff? If they refuse to train drivers can how many drivers would need to support the ToC over the union to train new drivers?

 

[Eccles1983]

Yes.

An instructor can refuse anything. He simply hands in his green cab pass.

One instructor takes around 6mths to have a trainee ready. Now the new traction routes take in lots of complex signal/stations. It would be difficult for non experenced drivers to learn chester/warrington/vic/leeds in one sitting.

Also, I could not see an instructor going against the union.

 

[Chester1]

Also, I could not see an instructor going against the union.

There is nearly always someone prepared to do that. How many conductors chose not to strike yesterday? How many drivers will decide that they are happy to take more responsibility for extra pay? Would 1 in 10 be enough to trash ASLEFs position on Northern DOO? From a passengers perspective it definitely appears that the government is slowly winning the battle over DOO.

 

[pemma]

I'll wait for you to show me where it has been accepted anywhere in Northern. Its certainly not in my or anyones contract. And there lies the issue. Southern drivers were snookered by the acceptance on certain routes.



.

ASLEF have accepted DOO is safe on Southern. For them to argue DOO is unsafe on Northern they'll need evidence which proves DOO on Southern is safer, which will be impossible for them to obtain. A union has every right to prevent employees undertaking unsafe practices but as they've accepted DOO is safe elsewhere Northern may well be in a position to block any industrial action on safety grounds unless ASLEF provides suitable evidence that DOO on Southern is safer. It'll end up being a dispute over pay and level of responsibility not one over safety.

 

[Eccles1983]

There is nearly always someone prepared to do that. How many conductors chose not to strike yesterday? How many drivers will decide that they are happy to take more responsibility for extra pay? Would 1 in 10 be enough to trash ASLEFs position on Northern DOO? From a passengers perspective it definitely appears that the government is slowly winning the battle over DOO.

Nah.

The DI would be completely shunned by all others in the grade. And the nature of the job means that DI's need the union more than regular drivers when it comes to rostering and incidents.

ASLEF have accepted DOO is safe on Southern. For them to argue DOO is unsafe on Northern they'll need evidence which proves DOO on Southern is safer, which will be impossible for them to obtain. A union has every right to prevent employees undertaking unsafe practices but as they've accepted DOO is safe elsewhere Northern may well be in a position to block any industrial action on safety grounds unless ASLEF provides suitable evidence that DOO on Southern is safer. It'll end up being a dispute over pay and level of responsibility not one over safety.

Easy.

Show anyone the inside of a 150/153/155/156/158 cab and ask them where the additional doo equipment is going.

Then the ab and semaphore areas, the extreme curvature of scores of stations.

Southern and Northern are in different hemispheres when it comes to safety cases for DOO. Even the company are aware of this hence the provision for platform/dispatch staff on the proposed Northern Connect routes.

Now the northern connect routes and traction will require a change in contract. And thats where it all falls down.

 

[pemma]

Apart from the DCO trains will be the 195s and 331s which have been designed to have the doors controlled by the driver. You're really clutching at straws by bringing up 153s not being suitable for DOO when Northern are returning them to the ROSCOs in 2019!

 

[Chester1]

Two or three years ago many people on this site thought the RMT would win the Southern dispute.... You might be right but equally once DOO is introduced it is never reversed and the government seems to be slowly winning nationally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is, and will be, no plan to run any existing stock DOO on Northern - it is not equipped for it and cannot easily be so equipped.

DOO will be new stock only. At the very most 170s could be converted by retrofitting the Electrostar equipment. I simply cannot see any 14x or 15x ever running DOO (P).

So like Merseyrail - but even more slowly - it will be phased in. No guard need be made compulsorily redundant, and for drivers it could be handled by all *new* drivers being DOO only.

 

[Eccles1983]

Apart from the DCO trains will be the 195s and 331s which have been designed to have the doors controlled by the driver. You're really clutching at straws by bringing up 153s not being suitable for DOO when Northern are returning them to the ROSCOs in 2019!

I'm fully aware that 195 and 331 will have the option for the driver to release and close the doors. They also have guard panels. I have spoken to the union rep who went over to consult on the design in Spain.

And 153/155 I class as the same really, the same issue with a lack of space in the big end will not change. The point remains that over 80% of the stock is unsuitable for DOO.

Which then leads back to the original point, without DOO in my contract I will not operate the new units. Nor will anyone else.

So how are you proposing that the new drivers are introduced on different contracts, with zero route knowledge and instructors who will refuse to train on DOO units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they won't train on DOO units employ some (e.g. from DOO TOCs) who will.