Arriva Rail North DOO

[scrapy]

Well some guards claim Arriva are hiding their plans for Northern but I think the reality is Arriva have consulted the RMT on routes suitable for not having a guard and the RMT have said "That's not up for discussion" meaning the RMT members have no idea what Arriva are consulting on.

From what I understand it the first time the RMT went into talks with Northern before the first strike one of the Northern management team handed the RMT representatives a network map and a highlighter pen and said we want to consult with you on what routes will be DCO so you draw what routes you feel should be. The RMT reps said no as they didnt want any DCO. It was more of a negotiating tactic by management to put the RMT on the spot than a serious consultation. There has been no further consultation on the matter since.

I think the feeling amongst staff is that they are being deceived by Arriva because senior management still say they have no plan as to which routes will be DCO. If Arriva knew that 50% of passenger millege had to be DCO then surely when putting the franchise bid together and ordering new trains they must know what routes (or at least 90% of them) they are planning to make DCO. To say 2 years on after winning the franchise that they still have no idea is either a big fat lie or complete incompetence.

 

[pemma]

If a TOC tried this then they would get a full blown driver dispute. I'd be very, very, very surprised if anyone had the appetite for that.

It would be an interesting dispute if ASLEF balloted members because they earn more than new drivers who haven't joined ASLEF! If you mean the new drivers would join ASLEF and then ASLEF would enter in to a dispute, well the TOC would have done ASLEF a favour in that scenario as the reasons for joining a union are stronger.

 

[pemma]

I think the feeling amongst staff is that they are being deceived by Arriva because senior management still say they have no plan as to which routes will be DCO. If Arriva knew that 50% of passenger millege had to be DCO then surely when putting the franchise bid together and ordering new trains they must know what routes (or at least 90% of them) they are planning to make DCO. To say 2 years on after winning the franchise that they still have no idea is either a big fat lie or complete incompetence.

Well it's pretty obvious it'll be the routes 195s and 331s are used on. Although, as all the 158s are being refurbished to 'Northern Connect' standard there would be some flexibility to change which routes the 195s will be used on, while there's also a bit of flexibility as to which routes get new 331s. I would guess Arriva started with asking the RMT which routes because stage 2 would be they would show the RMT their current plan and start talking about how their plan can be changed to be closer to what the RMT propose.

 

[Robertj21a]

From what I understand it the first time the RMT went into talks with Northern before the first strike one of the Northern management team handed the RMT representatives a network map and a highlighter pen and said we want to consult with you on what routes will be DCO so you draw what routes you feel should be. The RMT reps said no as they didnt want any DCO. It was more of a negotiating tactic by management to put the RMT on the spot than a serious consultation. There has been no further consultation on the matter since.

I think the feeling amongst staff is that they are being deceived by Arriva because senior management still say they have no plan as to which routes will be DCO. If Arriva knew that 50% of passenger millege had to be DCO then surely when putting the franchise bid together and ordering new trains they must know what routes (or at least 90% of them) they are planning to make DCO. To say 2 years on after winning the franchise that they still have no idea is either a big fat lie or complete incompetence.

Not sure I follow this. You say that the Northern management team said that they wanted to consult and '.....the RMT said no as they didn't want any DCO'. Were they expecting Arriva to come back pleading, or just accept the RMT response at face value ?

 

[HH]

It would be an interesting dispute if ASLEF balloted members because they earn more than new drivers who haven't joined ASLEF! If you mean the new drivers would join ASLEF and then ASLEF would enter in to a dispute, well the TOC would have done ASLEF a favour in that scenario as the reasons for joining a union are stronger.

No, immediately you start differing different terms to new drivers there is a dispute, because this lies outside the existing agreements.

 

[HH]

From what I understand it the first time the RMT went into talks with Northern before the first strike one of the Northern management team handed the RMT representatives a network map and a highlighter pen and said we want to consult with you on what routes will be DCO so you draw what routes you feel should be. The RMT reps said no as they didnt want any DCO. It was more of a negotiating tactic by management to put the RMT on the spot than a serious consultation. There has been no further consultation on the matter since.

I think the feeling amongst staff is that they are being deceived by Arriva because senior management still say they have no plan as to which routes will be DCO. If Arriva knew that 50% of passenger millege had to be DCO then surely when putting the franchise bid together and ordering new trains they must know what routes (or at least 90% of them) they are planning to make DCO. To say 2 years on after winning the franchise that they still have no idea is either a big fat lie or complete incompetence.

It's certain that when they bid they had plans for which routes were going DCO, but AFAIK the franchise agreement commitment is based on a %, so the plans could be changed.

 

[PR1Berske]

Reading recent posts, as a humble passenger, makes me worry about the reliability of services up here for months to come, maybe years. I do wonder just what, or who, will have to "give way".

 

[scrapy]

Not sure I follow this. You say that the Northern management team said that they wanted to consult and '.....the RMT said no as they didn't want any DCO'. Were they expecting Arriva to come back pleading, or just accept the RMT response at face value ?

If the RMT had done anything else then the company could have come back and said it was the RMT who elected to have DCO on these routes. I guess the company possibly nicely hoped the RMT would come back with an offer of 10% DCO for example.

 

[scrapy]

It's certain that when they bid they had plans for which routes were going DCO, but AFAIK the franchise agreement commitment is based on a %, so the plans could be changed.

Agreed plans can be changed. But Northern management have been saying 'there is no plan and that is what staff disbelieve.

 

[Chester1]

Reading recent posts, as a humble passenger, makes me worry about the reliability of services up here for months to come, maybe years. I do wonder just what, or who, will have to "give way".

I think Southern answers your question. ToC is bankrolled indefinately by government, ASLEF eventually neogiate agreement on DOO rules and get their 30 pieces of silver and RMT stamp their feet and issue statements about foriegn companies robbing us blind etc. It will be interesting to see how Southern DOO works under the new agreement, if ASLEF bind GTR to every word of the deal it could be a good template for elsewhere. OBS will stay if ASLEF are determined to keep them.

 

[Robertj21a]

If the RMT had done anything else then the company could have come back and said it was the RMT who elected to have DCO on these routes. I guess the company possibly nicely hoped the RMT would come back with an offer of 10% DCO for example.

Well, I utterly fail to see how the company could have said it was the RMT who elected to have DCO, just because they were invited to a meeting. Sounds like the RMT just being plain awkward from the earliest possible opportunity and then complaining when the company moves on.

 

[pemma]

The RMT are demanding meetings with all new franchises over DOO only to demand that the TOC will not introduce it and if they don't agree industrial action gets balloted on. They did make idiots with accusing TPE of having DOO plans and instead of backtracking they claimed they convinced TPE to not introduce DOO.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Any more strikes planned or in the pipeline?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The RMT are demanding meetings with all new franchises over DOO only to demand that the TOC will not introduce it and if they don't agree industrial action gets balloted on. They did make idiots with accusing TPE of having DOO plans and instead of backtracking they claimed they convinced TPE to not introduce DOO.

I'm not aware that TPE ever intended to introduce DOO, nor is it part of their franchise to do so.

 

[pemma]

I'm not aware that TPE ever intended to introduce DOO, nor is it part of their franchise to do so.

They didn't. The RMT want created a fake story presumably to try and give the impression they prevented DOO from happening.

 

[Moonshot]

They didn't. The RMT want created a fake story presumably to try and give the impression they prevented DOO from happening.

I really have lost all faith in RMT at the top now......its not going to be long before they cease to get any more subs from me....

 

[Carlisle]

I'm not aware that TPE ever intended to introduce DOO, nor is it part of their franchise to do so.

Its perfectly plausible after winning the franchise and ordering new stock with body side cameras that management briefly considered transferring some door duties to drivers before being persuaded otherwise by the RMT .

 

[Domh245]

Its perfectly plausible after winning the franchise and ordering new stock with body side cameras that management briefly considered transferring some door duties to drivers before being persuaded otherwise by the RMT .

The bodyside cameras are something of an "as standard" nowadays, the ROSCOs want to keep their investments futureproof. And from what I remember, TPE were expected to look at DOO whilst bidding but ruled it out fairly quickly without the RMT getting involved in that.

 

[Carlisle]

The bodyside cameras are something of an "as standard" nowadays, the ROSCOs want to keep their investments futureproof. And from what I remember, TPE were expected to look at DOO whilst bidding but ruled it out fairly quickly without the RMT getting involved in that.

Ok cheers, so their bid included a second suitably trained staff member on all trains anyway, therefore if the RMT did actually manage to achieve anything it was at best just a guarantee that all door closing duties would definitely remain with the guard

 

[pemma]

Its perfectly plausible after winning the franchise and ordering new stock with body side cameras that management briefly considered transferring some door duties to drivers before being persuaded otherwise by the RMT .

Ok cheers, so their bid included a second suitably trained staff member on all trains anyway, therefore if the RMT did actually manage to achieve anything it was at best just a guarantee that all door closing duties would definitely remain with the guard

I don't think First proposed any change to the guard role. The RMT seemed to be satisfied after a single meeting with TPE management so it sounded like they were in agreement and no compromises were needed.

I fail to see why they would propose driver releasing and guard closing on the new stock given the new stock will be used on services where stations would generally be far apart and the existing 185s (where driver releasing wouldn't be possible) will be used on services which might have some benefit of the driver releasing and guard closing.

 

[gavin]

Series of 24 hour strikes announced for January as the long running dispute over guards continues

 

[pemma]

Series of 24 hour strikes announced for January as the long running dispute over guards continues

8th, 10th and 12th January. (Mon, Wed and Fri)

 

[Andyh82]

I'm very surprised there was no strike planned over the next few days.

In the main urban areas in Manchester, West Yorks etc are the strikes actually effective, or are people just catching the lower frequency but higher capacity services that are operating?

 

[a_c_skinner]

This is costing the RMT's members a lot of money and they seem unlikely to win much. I pass no comment on the merits or otherwise of the dispute(s).

 

[Moonshot]

This is costing the RMT's members a lot of money and they seem unlikely to win much. I pass no comment on the merits or otherwise of the dispute(s).

Indeed it is, I rather suspect judging by the chat in the messroom that an increasing number of guards will ignore it and work

 

[a_c_skinner]

increasing number of guards will ignore it and work

Worst possible outcome for a trades union and its members.

 

[LETHLFH]

I know if drivers were on strike Mon Wed Fri then there would also be disruption on Tues and Thurs due to unit displacement. Can anyone forsee there being any disruption issues on 9th and 11th Jan?

 

[Dentonian]

I'm very surprised there was no strike planned over the next few days.

In the main urban areas in Manchester, West Yorks etc are the strikes actually effective, or are people just catching the lower frequency but higher capacity services that are operating?

No higher capacity on the Hope Valley Line, but people are still piling on the reduced service. The last strike day, my train disgorged exactly 50 people at Reddish North in the evening peak, taking a gap of (iirc) about 45 minutes. The route competes with a 10 minute bus service.

 

[Robertj21a]

Worst possible outcome for a trades union and its members.

Quite, but hardly surprising. The RMT needs a total overhaul.

 

[Bromley boy]

I also suggest the Union should only concern itself with its present members. If a new member of staff is offered a new role of driving a DOO train which they know when they take that role, it is none of the Union's business to attempt to prevent that.

Following this argument to its logical conclusion, supposing a TOC found drivers willing to work for less than the current drivers’ salary. Surely you aren’t suggesting this wouldn’t be any of the union’s business?!