Arriva Rail North DOO

[pemma]

It did.

Not on Northern or Merseyrail it didn't. I was referring to news reports where they ask passengers in Manchester, Liverpool or somewhere else in the north, not ones relating to the Southern dispute.

 

[nedchester]

Not on Northern or Merseyrail it didn't. I was referring to news reports where they ask passengers in Manchester, Liverpool or somewhere else in the north, not ones relating to the Southern dispute.

OK fine.

However, I fail to see why trains can run over much of Southern England including some very busy commuter routes (and have done for many years) but not on Merseyrail and Northern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK fine.

However, I fail to see why trains can run over much of Southern England including some very busy commuter routes (and have done for many years) but not on Merseyrail and Northern.

LU (subsurface lines) is probably the best comparison, as it has, like Merseyrail, a generally high level of staffing other than on the trains. And that has been DOO for years.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

OK fine.

However, I fail to see why trains can run over much of Southern England including some very busy commuter routes (and have done for many years) but not on Merseyrail and Northern.

Infrastructure. Billions were spent on the Southern Network in the late 80s Early 90s and also the Railway was on its a**e. DOO was seen as a way of cutting costs on quieter services and NOT on the jam packed 12 Car sets that they have now. Times have changed and yes Technology has improved drastically. However the way we treat people has changed too. Everyone should have the same rights and one of them is an open railway, obviously due to Victorian infrastructure with quite a lot of the stations up here there is not the investment to install lifts etc everywhere. Raise all platforms to correct sizes, Step Free access etc etc. Lets take a look at JCollins own line the Mid Cheshire. Hale is a short Platform on the Up and so is Mobberly Knutsford Gap on the Up and Large Step on the Down. Plumley we have Semaphore Signals, Lostock Gralam Large Step on the down, Northwich again Large Gap on the Up and Down with NO disabled access on the Up, Cuddington NO disabled access on the Up unless crossing used which is actually not official so i have been told (to be honest I don't think anyone knows). Mouldsworth No Disabled access on the down and a short Platform on the Up. Only Altrincham and Knutsford have booking offices that are close to full time. This is just ONE average line. Thats one of the reasons DOO is not up here (yet)

 

[Bletchleyite]

And this is precisely why Merseyrail is a good target for DOO (part of the plan is 100% level boarding throughout the network) and why Northern isn't (though OBSs with driver door control would be acceptable).

 

[pemma]

Lets take a look at JCollins own line the Mid Cheshire. Hale is a short Platform on the Up and so is Mobberly Knutsford Gap on the Up and Large Step on the Down. Plumley we have Semaphore Signals, Lostock Gralam Large Step on the down, Northwich again Large Gap on the Up and Down with NO disabled access on the Up, Cuddington NO disabled access on the Up unless crossing used which is actually not official so i have been told (to be honest I don't think anyone knows). Mouldsworth No Disabled access on the down and a short Platform on the Up. Only Altrincham and Knutsford have booking offices that are close to full time. This is just ONE average line. Thats one of the reasons DOO is not up here (yet)

Network Rail are supposed to lengthen some platforms, renew the signalling and change the position of the turnback at Greenbank. However, when they will do that is another question. I've never really noticed any noticeable large gaps or steps at my local station and I've also never heard a guard make an announcement to mind the gap/step at Knutsford, unlike at Lostock Gralam, Northwich, Greenbank and Piccadilly platforms 13/14. Anyway I'm pretty sure they'll no plans to run DCO services on the Mid-Cheshire line during the course of the current franchise. It's lines like Manchester-Crewe, Manchester-Preston (both routes), Manchester-Airport, Manchester-Stoke, Preston-Blackpool etc. that are the ones most likely to get new trains and the guard-less method of operation.

 

[Bookd]

The issue with public perception is how the ordinary passenger responds. Not the RailUK poster, not the Socialist Party leaflet dropper, not the Guard with their RMT lapel pin, not the enthusiasts on the end of platform 4.

If Northern are doing their best to underline how jobs are secured until franchise end, and this message is getting through, the ordinary passenger will wonder why the RMT is so adamant about not believing them. If the ordinary passenger only sees guards in their cabs, and only gets their tickets checked by hiviz jackets at a gate line, they might wonder why the RMT is so adamant that a guard must be onboard at all times.

Passengers on many Northern, Merseyrail, services would be mistaken for thinking that guards only opened and closed doors as it is. The RMT seem to be ignorant to this

I agree with this, particularly in that the company have stated that jobs are guaranteed. I cannot understand why the strikes continue; I would say the same of SWR where DOO is not even on the agenda for the foreseeable future.
No doubt on the dates of the next Northern and Merseyrail strikes RMT will call strikes at every other company where they can find some some sort of justification.
I am not opposed to guards, and would rather keep them - I am just opposed to pointless political strikes.

 

[Robertj21a]

As has been said before, and elsewhere, the RMT should concentrate on getting their own act together. If it was to, somehow, become a respected, professional, organisation then it's just possible that others may listen to them. Unfortunately, they seem to much prefer playing politics and moaning about 'Fat Cats' and foreign ownership etc.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

All the new trains have Guard Controls however from what I have seen there is no plans to run the new trains on the Mid-Cheshire Line. From what i can gather the Electrics will mainly replace 323 routes while the new diesels will most likely be on the Connect services.

 

[Carlisle]

Infrastructure. Billions were spent on the Southern Network in the late 80s Early 90s and also the Railway was on its a**e. DOO was seen as a way of cutting costs )

Many of the routes converted to DOO in that era simply had all external station lighting renewed, platform monitors/mirrors installed where necessary and cab secure radio fitted to the relevant trains, signalboxes and lineside structures . It’ll have amounted to several million per route rather than billions, BRs entire subsidy was around 1 billion a year in those days .

 

[Wombat]

I agree with this, particularly in that the company have stated that jobs are guaranteed. I cannot understand why the strikes continue; I would say the same of SWR where DOO is not even on the agenda for the foreseeable future.

I can't prove it, but I expect that the RMT is absolutely dead-set against DOO because it wishes to preserve its own power. If trains are unable to run because the guards are not present, the union is able to bring the service to a halt with industrial action. If trains can run without a guard in exceptional circumstances, and those circumstances are defined to include industrial action, then that leverage is removed.

Even if strike action isn't covered under the definition of "exceptional circumstances", union power is probably slashed in the long run. Imagine a situation where trains can run without guards if their absence is caused by operational problems, but can't run without guards if they're absent due to industrial action. That's clearly a nonsensical situation: if the trains can run safely without a guard present under the former scenario, then withholding services in the case of the latter indicates that the network is operating for the benefit of the staff, rather than the public. Bletchleyite referred to this situation in post 2191 but appears to have elicited no response, which is unfortunate because I think it confronts the issue squarely.

As far as I'm concerned, I want to see guards rostered on every train that can't guarantee disabled assistance at every station without the need for advance booking.

 

[the sniper]

As has been said before, and elsewhere, the RMT should concentrate on getting their own act together. If it was to, somehow, become a respected, professional, organisation then it's just possible that others may listen to them. Unfortunately, they seem to much prefer playing politics and moaning about 'Fat Cats' and foreign ownership etc.

As has been said by you before, here, there, everywhere, repeatedly, many times, for many months, at every opportunity.

It amazes me that the usual suspects that seemingly have no horse in this race continue to have such commitment to discussing this subject in general.

 

[Robertj21a]

As has been said by you before, here, there, everywhere, repeatedly, many times, for many months, at every opportunity.

It amazes me that the usual suspects that seemingly have no horse in this race continue to have such commitment to discussing this subject in general.

Perhaps it's those who have a horse in the race who have left the blinkers on.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I don't want to get involved in the debate about the desirability or otherwise of changed ways of operating, I doubt anyone can find anything new to say, but surely no one thinks this tactic of industrial action in this fashion is going to bring this dispute to a conclusion? Currently it seems doomed to drag on and on and isn't going to be won or lost by either side with IA going on at this level.

 

[PHILIPE]

I don't want to get involved in the debate about the desirability or otherwise of changed ways of operating, I doubt anyone can find anything new to say, but surely no one thinks this tactic of industrial action in this fashion is going to bring this dispute to a conclusion? Currently it seems doomed to drag on and on and isn't going to be won or lost by either side with IA going on at this level.

Probably Grayling's sitting there just laughing (or smirking) at them losing pay

 

[Dave1987]

Probably Grayling's sitting their just laughing (or smirking) at them losing pay

Hold on a second this is a Government who stated they will act for everyone in the economy!

 

[XDM]

Probably Grayling's sitting their just laughing (or smirking) at them losing pay

I understood they are not loosing pay. RMT members' funds are being rapidly diminished to pay guard strikers for putting their feet up at home. It was certainly the case before Christmas.

 

[pemma]

Hold on a second this is a Government who stated they will act for everyone in the economy!

While you can say a lot of negative things about Grayling, you could argue Grayling and his predecessor have indirectly given guards something most workers would love to be offered - a guarantee of full time work until beyond 2025 without the risk of being moved to a lower pay grade or losing their annual pay reviews. Imagine how attractive that sounds to former Carillion workers.

 

[pemma]

As far as I'm concerned, I want to see guards rostered on every train that can't guarantee disabled assistance at every station without the need for advance booking.

I'd say that's not enough in terms of what provision disabled passengers need. Guards can't be expected to get disabled passengers from the station entrance to the platform. Disabled passengers need to be able to reach the platform by themselves or station staff are needed from the first to last departure every day.

 

[nedchester]

While you can say a lot of negative things about Grayling, you could argue Grayling and his predecessor have indirectly given guards something most workers would love to be offered - a guarantee of full time work until beyond 2025 without the risk of being moved to a lower pay grade or losing their annual pay reviews. Imagine how attractive that sounds to former Carillion workers.

Exactly.

The counter argument is that we are not in a race to the bottom but a guaranteed job (on the same rates of pay) for at least the next 7 years sounds pretty good to me.

 

[74A]

Infrastructure. Billions were spent on the Southern Network in the late 80s Early 90s and also the Railway was on its a**e. DOO was seen as a way of cutting costs on quieter services and NOT on the jam packed 12 Car sets that they have now. Times have changed and yes Technology has improved drastically. However the way we treat people has changed too. Everyone should have the same rights and one of them is an open railway, obviously due to Victorian infrastructure with quite a lot of the stations up here there is not the investment to install lifts etc everywhere. Raise all platforms to correct sizes, Step Free access etc etc. Lets take a look at JCollins own line the Mid Cheshire. Hale is a short Platform on the Up and so is Mobberly Knutsford Gap on the Up and Large Step on the Down. Plumley we have Semaphore Signals, Lostock Gralam Large Step on the down, Northwich again Large Gap on the Up and Down with NO disabled access on the Up, Cuddington NO disabled access on the Up unless crossing used which is actually not official so i have been told (to be honest I don't think anyone knows). Mouldsworth No Disabled access on the down and a short Platform on the Up. Only Altrincham and Knutsford have booking offices that are close to full time. This is just ONE average line. Thats one of the reasons DOO is not up here (yet)

I have to disagree with you there. DOO was introduced in the south precisely because they were the busier services. As the infrastructure at the time had to be on the platform the busier the route the more cost effective it was to introduce DOO. You would be replacing more staff so saving more money.

Also quiet routes the cost benefits didn't stack up. If you have one train and hour over a route that isn't very busy the cost of all the DOO equipment meant you didn't get any payback. It was cheaper the have someone collecting revenue on the train. In the south you simply couldn't collect enough of the revenue. So go DOO and have ticket barriers at the station.

Now the DOO equipment is on the train it basically means you can have DOO anywhere.

 

[Carlisle]

I can't prove it, but I expect that the RMT is absolutely dead-set against DOO because it wishes to preserve its own power. If trains are unable to run because the guards are not present, the union is able to bring the service to a halt with industrial action. If trains can run without a guard in exceptional circumstances, and those circumstances are defined to include industrial action, then that leverage is removed.
.

Absolutely, visit any major UK station and compare the wages and T&Cs of the employees that serve you refreshments, keep the place clean or prepare your train (many of whom also require customer service skills) to those of the guard or driver and there’s your answer.

 

[pemma]

Absolutely, visit any major station and compare the wages and T&Cs of the employee that serves you refreshments, cleans the place or prepares the train to those of the guard or driver and there’s your answer.

As with any industry salaries are proportional to how many skills you need and how much training you need. Cleaners and people who serve refreshments rarely get more than the minimum wage outside the rail industry and need very little training if they've done a similar role before. If a fully trained EMT guard started working for Northern as a guard they would need more training to do their new role - that's why they're paid more.

 

[Ianigsy]

And how replaceable you are. One of the reasons why the media, politics etc. get away with unpaid or expenses-only internships is that there's a constant stream of people who are prepared to do the work for nothing to have the experience on their CV.

 

[pemma]

And how replaceable you are. One of the reasons why the media, politics etc. get away with unpaid or expenses-only internships is that there's a constant stream of people who are prepared to do the work for nothing to have the experience on their CV.

Plus the wording of the law being vague so that a clause which is supposed to allow charities to recruit volunteers without having to pay them the minimum wage can be used by commercial organisations who want some free labour.

 

[B&I]

Absolutely, visit any major UK station and compare the wages and T&Cs of the employees that serve you refreshments, keep the place clean or prepare your train (many of whom also require customer service skills) to those of the guard or driver and there’s your answer.

How awful of them, trying to maintain their members' eages against the tide of pauperusation sweepinv over the rest of the country. While on balance I don't agree with their arguments, nor do I like very much the underlying drift of this country which is partly responsible for the current situation.

 

[B&I]

Unfortunately, a franchise which works using the current system means little investment for passengers. The old Northern franchise exceeded targets and was always part refunding subsides rather than asking for revenue support. However, for passengers that meant excess fare revenue was going to DfT instead of addressing under investment in rolling stock.

If premiums went into an improvement fund, rather than vanishing into general receipts, there would be less of a problem.

 

[Dave1987]

While you can say a lot of negative things about Grayling, you could argue Grayling and his predecessor have indirectly given guards something most workers would love to be offered - a guarantee of full time work until beyond 2025 without the risk of being moved to a lower pay grade or losing their annual pay reviews. Imagine how attractive that sounds to former Carillion workers.

I’ve yet to see anything from Grayling guaranteeing roles and pay. Could you provide a link please.

 

[pemma]

I’ve yet to see anything from Grayling guaranteeing roles and pay. Could you provide a link please.

See post 2245.

 

[Carlisle]

How awful of them, trying to maintain their members' eages against the tide of pauperusation sweepinv over the rest of the country. While on balance I don't agree with their arguments, nor do I like very much the underlying drift of this country which is partly responsible for the current situation.

I’m not suggesting those fortunate enough to have been members of powerful unions and employed by companies only really preoccupied with short term performance, have done anything wrong whatsoever, the industry and govt of the day designed this rather divisive system, and seem to have only recently paid any attention to those that can actually see the bigger picture on these matters. Still a long way to go though, as you suggest.