Arriva Rail North DOO

[Tomnick]

Firstly I can't speak for others and I do think some of the arguments have gotten petty. However the RMT are the crux of this debate. I for one am angry they are being dishonest and saying its all about our safety and not about job loses. I've seen DOO work and it works fine. I wish they would stop lying and saying poor me poor RMT I'm taking an unpaid day off work for you and other passengers.

It works “fine” until you find yourself trapped in the doors by your coat (easy to say it’ll never happen...), your train’s involved in a minor derailment but the lone driver can’t get out to carry out emergency protection until it’s too late, even a simple failure where you’re all left on your own in the cold and dark for an hour or so whilst the driver does what he has to do, or maybe even if you find yourself in a wheelchair and needing help to board the train (except there’s no-one to help you any more).

Of course it’s about job losses too, but then the DfT and the TOCs are hardly being totally honest in that case with their vague promises about maintaining staffing levels.

 

[woodmally]

It works “fine” until you find yourself trapped in the doors by your coat (easy to say it’ll never happen...), your train’s involved in a minor derailment but the lone driver can’t get out to carry out emergency protection until it’s too late, even a simple failure where you’re all left on your own in the cold and dark for an hour or so whilst the driver does what he has to do, or maybe even if you find yourself in a wheelchair and needing help to board the train (except there’s no-one to help you any more).

Of course it’s about job losses too, but then the DfT and the TOCs are hardly being totally honest in that case with their vague promises about maintaining staffing levels.

OK let's say your right. RMT have tried that argument and the government are refusing to listen. What next continue strike action and alienate more passengers and lose money or better still accept DOO and when an accident happens contribute to the investigation. If your right he accident investigator will rule that a second critical guard is necessary. I know no one wants an accident to happen but its the only way to convince the government of your argument. Reality is this won't happen as its not about safety is it. Also they have guaranteed the role of guard in a new capacity so what's wrong with that?

 

[pemma]

Tell them you'd be catching the bus to work. Presumably they'd be fine with that and you'll get the job.

From my town there's no bus routes duplicating the same routes as train services, to A, B, C, D or E train is the only viable option, to F or G bus is the only viable option.

 

[pemma]

How many weekday strikes have there been on Northern this year?

As I said already the prospect of strikes is what is off putting to employers. It's also not just how many but which days - the last working day before the Easter weekend and the first working days after were dates the RMT selected for strikes, those are dates which some people will have booked off months before, so employers can't afford to have people who haven't booked those days off asking, at very short notice, if they can have the day off, start late/finish early, work from home etc.

 

[pemma]

And more to the point, if employers won't accept rail as a means of getting to work, then you (not *you*, jcollins) need to pass your driving test and start driving, use the bus or coach, or be willing to move closer to prospective employment such that you can cycle or walk or a taxi is affordable.

In any case, there are plenty of IT jobs that are 100% remote these days. Perhaps jcollins needs to look for one of those.

I've got a driving licence but not a car. It's also the employers in Manchester city centre who um and ah when you say you'd use a (Northern) train to get in to work so while driving to a Metrolink stop could be an option with a car, I'm not sure driving directly to the place of employment would be a good idea.

I also thought the RMT wanted more guard jobs on the railway, putting people off travelling won't achieve that.

 

[pemma]

Well that statement certainly puts your comments on this forum into perspective. It’s the railway unions’ fault you can’t find work in the IT industry, is it? Of course it is mate.

If you want someone to blame for your current state of unemployment, I respectfully suggest you look a little closer to home.

You spend a great deal of time and energy on here posturing, attacking T’s and C’s, asking staff to justify their wages. The cheek of it! As if they owe you any explanation at all, when their taxes fund your JSA payments, including those northern guards you’d like to see joining you on the dole queue.

I suggest you think about that next time you criticise ASLEF or the RMT for daring to protect their members...

Put an end to your stupid prejudice. I don't qualify for Income based JSA/Universal Credit because I had my finances under control while I was in employment and had almost saved up enough for a deposit on a house when I was made redundant so under new welfare rules because I have money in savings I'm expected to live off the money I saved up for a house deposit. So if you want to use that argument you and other people in work don't pay 1p towards my living costs but I pay towards the costs of operating the railway (including staffing costs) despite not having an income. So yes the cheek of it - the unions sucking money from unemployed people with no income (not even benefits.) :roll: And how dare I spend free time posting on forums which are free to join instead of going out and spending money, when if I'd done that more when I was in work I would now be eligible for income related benefits. :roll:

I also told you I haven't had full time permanent employment for a while after a business I was working for lost contracts following market uncertainty partly resulting from the Brexit vote after you hounded me to disclose my income for daring to question why drivers earn so much, I did not say I have been constantly unemployed for a long period you've just jumped to that conclusion.

I asked a few months ago if drivers could justify their salary level and have not seen one post properly justify the salary of drivers and if anyone asks why they earn so much it seems drivers gang up and attack that person because they are unable to justify their salary. Obviously if you cant defend then attack is the only option!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've got a driving licence but not a car. It's also the employers in Manchester city centre who um and ah when you say you'd use a (Northern) train to get in to work so while driving to a Metrolink stop could be an option with a car, I'm not sure driving directly to the place of employment would be a good idea.

Then you need to make yourself a plan to do that, or move to Manchester.

The mind boggles as to why people who are long-term unemployed baulk at making often quite minor changes to their life in order to ensure themselves a job.

What area of IT are you talking about, anyway? In the area of consultancy/development (which is what I do) I've never known a company too fussy when you come in as long as it's somewhere approximating to 9 and you deliver the work required, staying late to do so if necessary if you got in late. Very rarely do you get 9am meetings because it is recognised that people travel a lot. Crikey, my job has been near 100% remote for the last few years, I work from my sofa.

I also thought the RMT wanted more guard jobs on the railway, putting people off travelling won't achieve that.

Driving into Manchester is grim enough that they will return, or rather enough of them to make the railway viable.

 

[theironroad]

Tell them you'd be catching the bus to work. Presumably they'd be fine with that and you'll get the job.



Aren't Saturday Nights DOO now too...? Dec Only Operation?

Lol..

 

[AlterEgo]

Well if the unions didn't keep striking and resulting in employers not being impressed when a prospective employee who says they would get the train to work, maybe I'd have a proper full time permanent job by now.

Oh come on.

 

[pemma]

or move to Manchester.

I am open to reconsider moving but ideally I don't want to move before securing something, otherwise I could end up moving further from a job which I end up getting.

 

[AlterEgo]

From my town there's no bus routes duplicating the same routes as train services, to A, B, C, D or E train is the only viable option, to F or G bus is the only viable option.

Then you need to learn to drive, or move. I have done both before, in order to obtain work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am open to reconsider moving but ideally I don't want to move before securing something, otherwise I could end up moving further from a job which I end up getting.

Were you saying at interview "If I were offered the job, I would move to Manchester by my start date and would travel to work either by foot, bike, tram or bus depending on where I found accommodation"? Don't even mention the train, it is not relevant.

If the start date is too soon to sort that, use the train for a week or two if you have to, but take one an hour earlier than you need and have breakfast in Manchester, then you are unlikely to be late often.

 

[theblackwatch]

It works “fine” until you find yourself trapped in the doors by your coat (easy to say it’ll never happen...), your train’s involved in a minor derailment but the lone driver can’t get out to carry out emergency protection until it’s too late, even a simple failure where you’re all left on your own in the cold and dark for an hour or so whilst the driver does what he has to do, or maybe even if you find yourself in a wheelchair and needing help to board the train (except there’s no-one to help you any more).

Are there any statistics on how many incidents similar to those detailed above have occurred since DOO was introduced on the network in 1983? The RMT needs to come up with some headline numbers.

 

[Carlisle]

Are there any statistics on how many incidents similar to those detailed above have occurred since DOO was introduced on the network in 1983? The RMT needs to come up with some headline numbers.

Plenty of startistics throughout the Southern DOO thread and general media, whether you opt to believe the official figures or take the RMT’s view is obviously a matter of personal choice.

 

[6Gman]

I've got a driving licence but not a car. It's also the employers in Manchester city centre who um and ah when you say you'd use a (Northern) train to get in to work so while driving to a Metrolink stop could be an option with a car, I'm not sure driving directly to the place of employment would be a good idea.

I also thought the RMT wanted more guard jobs on the railway, putting people off travelling won't achieve that.

So hiring one for the two days you've mentioned would be an option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So hiring one for the two days you've mentioned would be an option.

Or, if cheaper, staying in a hotel in Manchester (or somewhere else served by a TOC other than Northern) on the night of a strike day.

 

[6Gman]

I asked a few months ago if drivers could justify their salary level and have not seen one post properly justify the salary of drivers and if anyone asks why they earn so much it seems drivers gang up and attack that person because they are unable to justify their salary. Obviously if you cant defend then attack is the only option!

Why does anyone working in the private sector have to "justify" their salary level?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why does anyone working in the private sector have to "justify" their salary level?

This is true. The minimum wage aside, the only things that are needed to justify a private sector wage - any private sector wage - is that the employer is happy to pay that sum and the employee is happy to do the job contracted in return for it. (If either of those isn't true, the job will not be done for that wage, as either the employee will not be taken on or they will resign).

 

[theironroad]

I don't really see why individual public sector workers need to justify their pay either. they enter into a contract with a public body and as long as both sides are happy then it's not really others business. If taxpayers have a problem with the amount it costs to run public services they have the opportunity to change the government whether it's local or national. If they're really incensed, then stand as a single issue candidate and make the argument.

 

[pemma]

Why does anyone working in the private sector have to "justify" their salary level?

Most people can even if they don't have to. For example, you're more highly skilled than people who work as x and fairly equally skilled to people who work as y but people who work as y tend to work longer hours but don't have work weekends etc. I only found out a few weeks ago that there's now a recognised formula method used by pay bodies and some unions use which calculates how pay in one role should compare to pay in another role based on various scoring.

Also let's not forget the railways are effectively a semi-privatised industry receiving government support not a fully privatised industry.

 

[theblackwatch]

Plenty of startistics throughout the Southern DOO thread and general media, whether you opt to believe the official figures or take the RMT’s view is obviously a matter of personal choice.

I presume that means there's no verified figures from the RMT then. They don't help themselves.

 

[pemma]

So hiring one for the two days you've mentioned would be an option.

Or, if cheaper, staying in a hotel in Manchester (or somewhere else served by a TOC other than Northern) on the night of a strike day.

I could say I'd do my best to try to do x, y or z but the employer doesn't have to believe me or believe I will be successful - they might think I'd struggle to hire a car or find a hotel room at short notice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I could say I'd do my best to try to do x, y or z but the employer doesn't have to believe me or believe I will be successful - they might think I'd struggle to hire a car or find a hotel room at short notice.

There is plenty of notice of the strikes to arrange either of those things. Don't say you will do your best to do them as that sounds like weasel words. Say you WILL do them, and make sure you DO.

 

[6Gman]

One can always take up employment near to where one lives.

When my (railway) job moved to the other side of the country and I was made redundant I took up alternative (and very different) employment locally.

But this is getting a long way away from the subject!

The industrial action may, or may not, be justified but the impact on a single individual is hardly the deciding factor.

 

[AlterEgo]

Most people can even if they don't have to.

No they can't. People don't have to justify to you why they're paid what they're paid, any more than you have to justify to them why you don't have "a proper job".

You're coming across as very bitter and negative.

 

[Carlisle]

One can always take up employment near to where one lives.

When my (railway) job moved to the other side of the country and I was made redundant I took up alternative (and very different) employment locally.

But this is getting a long way away from the subject!

The industrial action may, or may not, be justified but the impact on a single individual is hardly the deciding factor.

True but the whole arguments just as easily turned on it’s head as if I were a northern or southern employee who disliked my working conditions so significantly I’d deemed it essential to be in dispute for what’s in some some cases is getting on for 3 years now, then I’d have long since taken up the alternative job seeking advice being given out on this thread,

 

[pemma]

No they can't. People don't have to justify to you why they're paid what they're paid, any more than you have to justify to them why you don't have "a proper job".

You're coming across as very bitter and negative.

Read what I said - I said most people can but they don't have to. Can the store manager in a supermarket justify why they are paid more than the cleaner in the same store? Of course they can. Arguing they can't would be ridiculous. What about the store manager of the supermarket earning more than a train cleaner? Of course they can. What about the store manager earning more than a station ticket office clerk? Again they can. What about the train driver earning more than the store manager? Harder to justify and it seems train drivers don't even want to bother trying. Then what about jobs which pay more than the store manager but less than a train driver?

Why don't I have a proper job? Those who voted on Brexit caused market uncertainty and the company I was working for lost contracts as they moved to low cost providers use to the uncertainty and due to the same uncertainty other similar companies aren't recruiting as much as they were pre the EU referendum. There's plenty of jobs which I could do but unless they are temporary roles I get rejected for them because I'm overqualified, over experienced or both. They don't want someone who they think will move to a better role at another company at the earliest opportunity. See unlike you I can justify my arguments rather than resorting to attack because you can't defend - exactly what I posted about earlier.

 

[pemma]

There is plenty of notice of the strikes to arrange either of those things.

Strikes are announced 2 weeks in advance then we don't get the emergency timetables until about a week in advance, sometimes only on the Monday when the strike is on Thursday/Friday of the same week. Plus strikes could be called off/postponed at any time it progress is made in talks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why don't I have a proper job? Those who voted on Brexit caused market uncertainty and the company I was working for lost contracts as they moved to low cost providers use to the uncertainty and due to the same uncertainty other similar companies aren't recruiting as much as they were pre the EU referendum. There's plenty of jobs which I could do but unless they are temporary roles I get rejected for them because I'm overqualified, over experienced or both. They don't want someone who they think will move to a better role at another company at the earliest opportunity. See unlike you I can justify my arguments rather than resorting to attack because you can't defend - exactly what I posted about earlier.

Then take the temporary work while looking for something else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Strikes are announced 2 weeks in advance then we don't get the emergency timetables until about a week in advance, sometimes only on the Monday when the strike is on Thursday/Friday of the same week. Plus strikes could be called off/postponed at any time it progress is made in talks.

That is absolutely loads of time to make a booking for a car or hotel. Still use it even if the strike is called off, you may find the variety helps with the humdrum of a commute.